Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

Actually that fits with my thinking. Here is a (bit long) thread about Russian economy and it's power structures: https://nitter.net/kamilkazani/status/1501370616158556161#m

tl;dr: Oil and gas were taken over by Putin's mafia friends, old style oligarchs a tier below are only accepted in a bit more complex industries. Abramovich being forced to sell his oil business for cheap and now active in metallurgy fits this perfectly.

So of course he is an oligarch, but I still think it's wrong to see him on the same level like Deripaska. He isn't part of Putin's inner circle.

Poor Roman. I feel sorry for him. Nothing worst than being poor then rich and now back to being poor again.

How will he survive on the $2-3Billion that's left?
 
Only 12 days into the war and they are in need of selling some of their assets already?

I bet when presented with options by his peeps; the best, most pessimistic and most realistic scenarios of the impact of the war, Putin's advisors' projections never came close to what they are facing now.

Putin will turn Russia into a vassal state.
When you hate the US/NATO so much, that you become the junior partner to China. :wenger:
 
That's why this whole invasion thing is a red herring. Unless Xi is as deluded as Putin, he will be humiliated by the massive losses that will be inflicted. Besides, why invade Taiwan -- that means Xi has to destroy half the island to control it. Then what's the point?

I disagree. Xi is biding his time but one day in the future they absolutely will invade. Look at how many amphibious landing ships they are building. They know they can't do it yet so they're taking the time to build up the equipment they need, and watching how the world responded to Russia here.

Put it another way, if the roles were reversed the US could invade Taiwan and nobody could stop them. That's where Xi wants to get to.
 
When you hate the US/NATO so much, that you become the junior partner to China. :wenger:

Wasn't that already the case? I have been under the impression for a while that Russia are essentially under China's wings whether they noticed it or not.
 
Have to wonder if there already isn't a modern version of Molotov-Ribbentrop pact between Russia and China.
 
I disagree. Xi is biding his time but one day in the future they absolutely will invade. Look at how many amphibious landing ships they are building. They know they can't do it yet so they're taking the time to build up the equipment they need, and watching how the world responded to Russia here.

Put it another way, if the roles were reversed the US could invade Taiwan and nobody could stop them. That's where Xi wants to get to.
They're certainly building a military very focused on that mission, and also to counter how the US would like to respond (with their carrier-targeting long-range missiles and island chains). The US will need to design new capabilities of its own that can intervene in that fight in a way that China will take more years to build a counter. Basically a specific arms race around attacking & defending an amphibious strike. If they don't then one day a Secretary of Defense will be informing a US President that even if they want to intervene to stop China's invasion, they can't realistically do it.

Wasn't that already the case? I have been under the impression for a while that Russia are essentially under China's wings whether they noticed it or not.
Not quite in my view, although there's no clear markers of these things so it's open to anyone's opinions. My reasoning is that while China does dwarf Russia economically, Russia is still militarily more fearsome because of their much bigger nuclear arsenal. I think China was happy to see Russia create problems for the established "Western order" that it also seeks to weaken, and that they would mutually support each other where possible but not have China really "veto" any of Russia's plans. If Russia can't grind to a more solid victory in Ukraine then I think that between the economic impact and the military losses (although big nuclear arsenal intact), then Russia really loses it's independence in terms of planning further geopolitical moves.
 
Not quite in my view, although there's no clear markers of these things so it's open to anyone's opinions. My reasoning is that while China does dwarf Russia economically, Russia is still militarily more fearsome because of their much bigger nuclear arsenal. I think China was happy to see Russia create problems for the established "Western order" that it also seeks to weaken, and that they would mutually support each other where possible but not have China really "veto" any of Russia's plans. If Russia can't grind to a more solid victory in Ukraine then I think that between the economic impact and the military losses (although big nuclear arsenal intact), then Russia really loses it's independence in terms of planning further geopolitical moves.

I see your point. I never really took the military side into account because China are too vast and my understanding is that the terrain is mainly extremely treacherous(lots of jungles, forrests, hills and moutains) for anyone to be an actual menace let alone Russia coming from Russia and that's ignoring the vast difference in population. My view was almost entirely in terms of economy and how China became crucial for Russia.
 
I disagree. Xi is biding his time but one day in the future they absolutely will invade. Look at how many amphibious landing ships they are building. They know they can't do it yet so they're taking the time to build up the equipment they need, and watching how the world responded to Russia here.

Put it another way, if the roles were reversed the US could invade Taiwan and nobody could stop them. That's where Xi wants to get to.

But if he looks at the great Russian military stumbling across Ukraine, what hope is there for a Chinese sea invasion? Remember -- China has ZERO military war experience.

Also, he uses a lot of Russian hardware. And it ain't doing so well in Ukraine.

I think this Russian special military exercise will give him some pause for thought.
 
When you hate the US/NATO so much, that you become the junior partner to China. :wenger:
:lol: :lol: The thing is that Putin doesn't see himself as inferior to China. He expects to be in equal standing with China. This is where the tension will blow up in the mid-term.
 
I don't get why civilians who have nothing to do with the war have their personal assets impacted.

You must be joking right? The Russian Oligarchs with billions in fortunes that collude with and enable the Putin regime have in your eyes nothing to with this?
 
It's still worth discussing Abramovich's current role in Russia. He became powerful during Yeltsin's rule, but it looks a lot like he has been pushed to the sideline under Putin.

Admittedly different Oligarchs will have different standing in Putin's circle. We, the readers, are not very savvy on what goes on behind closed doors. But those that still maintain their freedom and their Russian wealth over there (when it could be seized by Putin) would have bent the knee to him and if they are not using their wealth to further his grip on power, they are at the very least not using it to loosen it. Otherwise they would go Khodorkovsky's way.

EDIT: Although I presume it functions like a racket. They all funnel some money to him indirectly, making him very rich, while buying his protection that way. Which means they are allowed to keep their wealth and operations without fear of it being seized by the state, so long as they don't make any waves.
 
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I disagree. Xi is biding his time but one day in the future they absolutely will invade. Look at how many amphibious landing ships they are building. They know they can't do it yet so they're taking the time to build up the equipment they need, and watching how the world responded to Russia here.

Put it another way, if the roles were reversed the US could invade Taiwan and nobody could stop them. That's where Xi wants to get to.

Is everyone with those capabilities planning an invasion then? Is Germany's new military spending a sign Britain should be afraid?

China has the capability to boost military spending significantly and until they do it's bizarre to claim an invasion is being planned. It makes zero sense for China in it's current direction. China will always claim Taiwan that doesn't mean they plan to invade, nor is Taiwan invading China for the same reason.
 
They're certainly building a military very focused on that mission, and also to counter how the US would like to respond (with their carrier-targeting long-range missiles and island chains). The US will need to design new capabilities of its own that can intervene in that fight in a way that China will take more years to build a counter. Basically a specific arms race around attacking & defending an amphibious strike. If they don't then one day a Secretary of Defense will be informing a US President that even if they want to intervene to stop China's invasion, they can't realistically do it.

This is why they're building Mosaic Warfare as DARPA calls it. Drone swarms assisting existing aircraft, ships etc to command them. They think it will make everything 50% more lethal and 50% less likely to sustain losses and can carpet cover a large area.


But if he looks at the great Russian military stumbling across Ukraine, what hope is there for a Chinese sea invasion? Remember -- China has ZERO military war experience.

Also, he uses a lot of Russian hardware. And it ain't doing so well in Ukraine.

I think this Russian special military exercise will give him some pause for thought.

Yeah, I'm not talking next year. This is 10-20 years away at least imo. China hasn't been buying much Russian hardware in a long time either they've been busy developing their own.
 
Taiwan should definitely try to develop nukes. Otherwise, within 2 decades, they are going to be invaded.

The problem though is that likely China will realize that and then try to invade immediately, while for US it would become hard to defend Taiwan in that case.

They are in a very hard position. I think their best long-term case is to be another Hong-Kong.
 
This is why they're building Mosaic Warfare as DARPA calls it. Drone swarms assisting existing aircraft, ships etc to command them. They think it will make everything 50% more lethal and 50% less likely to sustain losses and can carpet cover a large area.




Yeah, I'm not talking next year. This is 10-20 years away at least imo. China hasn't been buying much Russian hardware in a long time either they've been busy developing their own.

It is not always just about the standard of kit.
One of the most important things to developed relates to the Logistics. Right thing, right place, right time.
Logistic Support is far more critical than many people perceive.
 
I disagree. Xi is biding his time but one day in the future they absolutely will invade. Look at how many amphibious landing ships they are building. They know they can't do it yet so they're taking the time to build up the equipment they need, and watching how the world responded to Russia here.

Put it another way, if the roles were reversed the US could invade Taiwan and nobody could stop them. That's where Xi wants to get to.

How many will survive to make it to a beach? And then you have establish and defend beach-heads in order for more troops and equipment to land, all the while under attack from land and air. And then, with no easy means of resupply for food, medical supplies, ammunition, fuel (etc) you have push inland and try to conquer and occupy a 14,000 sq.miles island, against a well-equipped military 300,000-strong plus 3.6m reserves.

It's an incredibly difficult task, far, far harder that what Russia is facing is Ukraine.
 
I don't think there's a rush for China to "integrate" Taiwan. It's probably wiser to play the long game; improve their military, continue building out those artificial islands, and most importantly influence Taiwan's public/political climate behind the scenes.
 
I don't get why civilians who have nothing to do with the war have their personal assets impacted.
Google the word "Oligarch" and look up how Putin became what he is today if your statement was serious
 
I don't think there's a rush for China to "integrate" Taiwan. It's probably wiser to play the long game; improve their military, continue building out those artificial islands, and most importantly influence Taiwan's public/political climate behind the scenes.

I agree it will be a long game. Year 2049 it will be the 100th anniversary of the People's Republic of China. They will want to have fully integrated Taiwan 10 years before that.
 
Anyone got a primer on how Trump got banned from Twitter, but the various Russian state accounts get a free pass? Are they considered out of scope for banning?
 
I agree it will be a long game. Year 2049 it will be the 100th anniversary of the People's Republic of China. They will want to have fully integrated Taiwan 10 years before that.
I'm from Asia and actually a lot of us here think China doesn't need to invade Taiwan militarily. They can easily afford to play the long game. Look at what they are now doing, they are actively shutting Taiwan from the rest of the world while on the other hand, establishing businesses with Taiwan. Taiwanese are increasingly dependent on China.

Give it 1-2 generations later, Taiwan may just go for a referendum and 'rejoin' China without a single drop of blood shed.
 
Anyone got a primer on how Trump got banned from Twitter, but the various Russian state accounts get a free pass? Are they considered out of scope for banning?
Trump was inciting riots and criminal activity. These Russian accounts should be closed down but I don’t think they’ve broken Twitter rules.
 
I'm from Asia and actually a lot of us here think China doesn't need to invade Taiwan militarily. They can easily afford to play the long game. Look at what they are now doing, they are actively shutting Taiwan from the rest of the world while on the other hand, establishing businesses with Taiwan. Taiwanese are increasingly dependent on China.

Give it 1-2 generations later, Taiwan may just go for a referendum and 'rejoin' China without a single drop of blood shed.

That will never happen. The Taiwanese know far too much about life inside the totalitarian state that is China.

If you haven't seen it yet I highly recommend a fairly recent Panorama report called "Are you scared yet?": https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000wft2
 
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When you look at the figures it is a relatively small amount compared to those going to the EU or Moldova. It may well be a good chunk of those are foreign people or also Russians who were living in Ukraine.

Another problem is that the forced migration of people in and out of Russian-controlled territories has been in their playbook for hundreds of years.

It's not a small amount at all. I think that's the third highest amount of immigrants compared to other countries
 
How many will survive to make it to a beach? And then you have establish and defend beach-heads in order for more troops and equipment to land, all the while under attack from land and air. And then, with no easy means of resupply for food, medical supplies, ammunition, fuel (etc) you have push inland and try to conquer and occupy a 14,000 sq.miles island, against a well-equipped military 300,000-strong plus 3.6m reserves.

It's an incredibly difficult task, far, far harder that what Russia is facing is Ukraine.

Sorry i mistyped, meant amphibious assault ship. The ones that do all those things you mention. China is building a bunch of them and about to start with an even bigger version.
 
There have been a number of recent podcasts about Putin, discussing how hard it would be to pry him out from within. Many believe it would require the Soloviki to take action in some way; specifically some combination of Patrushev, Bortnikov, Naryshkin, and Shoigu. Many of these guys are either old KGB cronies of Putin's dating back to the 70s and/or (in the case of Patrushev) corrupt St. Petersburg conspiracy theorists who are actually fueling Putin's imperialist views instead of pushing back against them. Putin has also managed to diversify away from the old KGB crowd incase they decide to move against him but putting an outside like Shoigu in charge of the military. This would make it very hard to plot a successful coup against him because not all of the necessary players would be sufficiently unified to keep it a secret for long enough to pull it off.

But circling back to sanctions, these are definitely the guys who need to be targeted (along with all family members remotely close to them) instead of the the usual caviar slurping Oligarchs with mega yachts who have little sway to influence Putin's behavior.
 
Taiwan should definitely try to develop nukes. Otherwise, within 2 decades, they are going to be invaded.

The problem though is that likely China will realize that and then try to invade immediately, while for US it would become hard to defend Taiwan in that case.

They are in a very hard position. I think their best long-term case is to be another Hong-Kong.
China is about as likley to let Taiwan develop nukes as America is to let Mexico
 
That will never happen. The Taiwanese know far too much about life inside the totalitarian state that is China.

If you haven't seen it yet I highly recommend a fairly recent Panorama report called "Are you scared yet": https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000wft2
Wow this is totally out of Black Mirror. Didn't know that, it is definitely scary as shit.

But as Im saying, as of now I would be scare too if I'm taiwanese to be annexed by China. Especially after seeing what happen to Hong Kong. But I'm saying 1-2 generations from now, when Taiwanese are totally dependent on China, and who's to say China will the totalitarian state that it is now 2 generations later.

Sorry to digress from topic. Somewhat back on topic, looking at China and now Russia, one communist and one ex communist country having such different fates is interesting. China has the world's second largest economy and despite being a communist country, doesn't complain or invade other countries just because it is surrounded by imagined /potential enemies. Russia despite its resources, constantly worry about enemies at their doorsteps. If it had developed its economy better, there is no need to worry about Nato or EU.
 
This thread is incredible. UK Russian Embassy is trying to claim the Mariupol hospital victims are fake.

 
BBC: "Half the population of Ukraine's capital Kyiv have fled since the invasion began, its mayor Vitali Klitschko says, as Russian forces move ever closer to the city.

Klitschko, the former heavyweight boxing champion, says: "Kyiv has been transformed into a fortress. Every street, every building, every checkpoint has been fortified."

Just under two million people, from the city's population of around three million, have left, he says.

Russian forces are believed to have rolled their armoured vehicles up to the north-eastern edge of the city today. Overnight, there was heavy fighting for control of the main road into the city."