Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

Ukrainian units are being warned of a potential massive attack tonight, don’t know if uav/missile or otherwise.

Probably coordinated with all this to try and demoralise.
 
FromTheBench said:
Zelensky's English wasnt that good.

Macron humiliated trump well. Hes far more witty.
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From the clips I saw, his English also seemed to suffer due to his frustration with the conversation. It probably didn't help him. But then I don't know what would have, with the situation he was being put in by Vance especially.
frostbite said:
I am with Zelensky 100%, he has been courageous all these years. But I cannot understand why he did this today. And after today, I don't see any other solution except for him resigning very soon.

Trump had called him a dictator, a bad comedian, that he started the war. Zelensky should have been prepared to accept everything and just nod and smile politely. Even if they told him he is the new Hitler who started WW3 and invaded Russia while he tricked his lackey Biden for support and was pocketing all that money for himself and his friend Hunter ... ... he should have said nothing, perhaps a joke about the weather or something. No need to fact check these guys, that doesn't work with Trumpists.

I am really sad about all this. What a terrible day for Ukraine.


(And I am sure that Europe will do nothing. No question about it. )
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If he did all that, he'd allow for the establishment of this alternative reality where all that is true - undermining Ukraine's position in any conversation or negotiation. You have to draw a line somewhere in terms of the lies and distortions you can accept, and I can understand if Zelensky and his people thought that Trump and Vance had gone well beyond that line.

I mean, if Zelensky basically has to accept anything just to get Ukraine a deal - then what's the result still worth? The conclusion at that point is rather that the US isn't a useful partner anymore. Bad as that is, it's better than basically giving the country and its values away.
 
This was designed for exactly this result. Zelensky, who I personally admire, should have just smiled and nodded. The result would have been the same though either way. But, he could have taken the high road on this one. Shameful US presidency. I actually miss Mike Pence. Don't think he would have stooped as low as Vance did today. What a brat.
 
Simbo said:
Ukrainian units are being warned of a potential massive attack tonight, don’t know if uav/missile or otherwise.

Probably coordinated with all this to try and demoralise.
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They’re gonna do everything they can to destroy morale after this disgrace of a situation in the US.
 
Changeisgood said:
This was designed for exactly this result. Zelensky, who I personally admire, should have just smiled and nodded. The result would have been the same though either way. But, he could have taken the high road on this one. Shameful US presidency. I actually miss Mike Pence. Don't think he would have stooped as low as Vance did today. What a brat.
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He only should have smiled and nodded if it were going to lead to a useful deal for Ukraine. If not, then better to make things explode. At least this is a clean break and will force Europe to really get going.

I admit this might be wishful thinking on my part for the Europe comment.
 
harms said:
His idiocy is his own. Russia does know how to play him though.
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Nah mate, there is too much, far far too much. This presidency, last presidency, inbetween, the 30 years prior and it’s not just him, it’s his entire circle. They are not just ‘being played’.
 
Cheimoon said:
He only should have smiled and nodded if it were going to lead to a useful deal for Ukraine. If not, then better to make things explode. At least this is a clean break and will force Europe to really get going.

I admit this might be wishful thinking on my part for the Europe comment.
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Europe is so disjointed and has it's own internal pressures to really help Ukraine. The realization of a European military force might not be far away though, but too far for Ukraine. Besides a few crumbs, they are on their own.

Disgusted. Can't count on the USA anymore for anything. They are more likely to do a Ribbentrop-Molotov agreement vs 2 at this point...then actually help.
 
Silver linings...

Perhaps Zelensky had already decided to resign and he wanted to go out with a bang.

Perhaps the next president of Ukraine will get a better deal.

Facts:

1. Putin hates Zelensky. Perhaps he has signaled that no peace is possible with Zelensky.

2. Trump hates Ukraine. Ukraine was involved in his first impeachment.

3. Ukraine has lost about 20% of its territory and has no soldiers to take it back. No other country is willing to send any soldiers to help. No real allies.

4. Biden did not send American soldiers before the war, or during the war. There is zero possibility for Trump to do so.

5. Europe will do nothing. Macron will send the French army only if there is peace (and I am sure that if Putin invades again, the French army will go home like nothing happened... )


So, how can Ukraine get back its lost territory? You cannot get back your territory from Russia with words only, you have to win it on the ground.

At the moment, it seems bleak. Ukraine lost.
 
Feel sorry for the Ukranian people after all that. Knowing that Russia have Donald and his idiots wrapped round their finger. The more and more it went on, you could tell by Zelensky's facial expressions this was a massive waste of time. Putin would have been laughing whilst eating his box of popcorn after that.
 
A lot of really fecking sympathetic and questionable takes on this and the Trump thread in the last few hours.
 
Ukraine has lost the territory it currently no longer controls. That was clear even before Trump. But they are literally offering him nothing tangible for peace even in exchange for those lost territories. In the absence of remotely a fair deal...make no deal at all in my opinion. (Easy for me to say) A peace offer is a 2-3 year armistice and then Russia will gobble the rest up.
 
Europe simply has lost all will to fight. Nobody in Europe can even imagine sending soldiers to fight in a war. Anywhere. For any reason.

For Europe, it is just words, it is theater, "politics". But words do not work against dictators.

Putin knows it. Trump also knows it. That's why Europe is not a factor.
 
Simbo said:
Nah mate, there is too much, far far too much. This presidency, last presidency, inbetween, the 30 years prior and it’s not just him, it’s his entire circle. They are not just ‘being played’.
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Again, conspiracy aside, what can they possibly have on Trump? He’s simply an amoral self-indulgent person with a fetish for authoritarianism — this gives Russia and Putin enough to manipulate him with.

The idea that he’s some kind of a sleeping agent/is getting blackmailed and, well, genuinely have Russia’s needs ahead of his own is… stupid. Every possible bit of blackmail that you can have on a politician is already public and Trump supporters simply don’t care. You’re talking about an open racist, a guy who committed rape (probably many times), countless frauds, including those that he got convicted for… heck, this is a guy who’ve tried to stage an actual coup.

Just to be clear: did he ever benefitted from Russia, monetarily or politically? Yeah, all the time. They’ve invested a lot in him, he suits their interests. It doesn’t mean that he’s theirs — he sees this as a win-win scenario where he either gets a massive profit from Russia or from Ukraine by blackmailing the latter into this absurd 500b deal.
 
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harms said:
Again, conspiracy aside, what can they possibly have on Trump? He’s simply an amoral self-indulgent person with a fetish for authoritarianism — this gives Russia and Putin enough to manipulate him with.

The idea that he’s some kind of a sleeping agent/is getting blackmailed and, well, genuinely have Russia’s needs ahead of his own is… stupid. Every possible bit of blackmail that you can have on a politician is already public and Trump supporters simply don’t care. You’re talking about an open racist, a guy who committed rape (probably many times), countless frauds, including those that he got convicted for… heck, this is a guy who’ve tried to stage an actual coup.
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I don’t think they need anything on him. They’ve helped him get in to power and will help him get more and influence all that comes with that massively. He’s their willing bitch.
 
harms said:
Again, conspiracy aside, what can they possibly have on Trump? He’s simply an amoral self-indulgent person with a fetish for authoritarianism — this gives Russia and Putin enough to manipulate him with.

The idea that he’s some kind of a sleeping agent/is getting blackmailed and, well, genuinely have Russia’s needs ahead of his own is… stupid. Every possible bit of blackmail that you can have on a politician is already public and Trump supporters simply don’t care. You’re talking about an open racist, a guy who committed rape (probably many times), countless frauds, including those that he got convicted for… heck, this is a guy who’ve tried to stage an actual coup.
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You are right.

These conspiracies were popular in 2016-17, when people believed that Putin has some videos that can end Trump's political career.

Since then, Trump has done everything imaginable, has said everything, his people invaded the Capitol. At this point, even if Putin has videos, it doesn't matter. Trump today is definitely much more powerful than Putin, nothing can touch him.


(And that's how Zelensky should have played it, he had to somehow convince Trump to show to the world that he is the real World Leader and Emperor, and that Putin is his bitch... )
 
VeevaVee said:
I don’t think they need anything on him. They’ve helped him get in to power and will help him get more and influence all that comes with that massively. He’s their willing bitch.
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I guess we’re arguing semantics more than reality. I doubt that he’s willingly puts anyone’s interests ahead of his own, but Russia bet on him long time ago, invested a lot in him, hoping that he’d be easy to manipulate… and he is.
 
frostbite said:
Europe simply has lost all will to fight. Nobody in Europe can even imagine sending soldiers to fight in a war. Anywhere. For any reason.

For Europe, it is just words, it is theater, "politics". But words do not work against dictators.

Putin knows it. Trump also knows it. That's why Europe is not a factor.
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Its not even that, if you look at Europe, those that support Ukraine the most, adjusted for GDP, are border countries to Russia(Denmark excluded), imagine if the powerhouses of Europe contributed the same in terms of that.

But even that is too much, it seems.

Europe has the capacity to handle Russia in Ukraine, but as you've said, there is no will.
 
harms said:
Again, conspiracy aside, what can they possibly have on Trump? He’s simply an amoral self-indulgent person with a fetish for authoritarianism — this gives Russia and Putin enough to manipulate him with.

The idea that he’s some kind of a sleeping agent/is getting blackmailed and, well, genuinely have Russia’s needs ahead of his own is… stupid. Every possible bit of blackmail that you can have on a politician is already public and Trump supporters simply don’t care. You’re talking about an open racist, a guy who committed rape (probably many times), countless frauds, including those that he got convicted for… heck, this is a guy who’ve tried to stage an actual coup.

Just to be clear: did he ever benefitted from Russia, monetarily or politically? Yeah, all the time. They’ve invested a lot in him, he suits their interests. It doesn’t mean that he’s theirs — he sees this as a win-win scenario where he either gets a massive profit from Russia or from Ukraine by blackmailing the latter into this absurd 500b deal.
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But did you know he slept with some prostitutes who pissed on the bed Obama slept in?
 
harms said:
I guess we’re arguing semantics more than reality. I doubt that he’s willingly puts anyone’s interests ahead of his own, but Russia bet on him long time ago, invested a lot in him, hoping that he’d be easy to manipulate… and he is.
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I was agreeing with you, just expanding on it
 
frostbite said:
You are right.

These conspiracies were popular in 2016-17, when people believed that Putin has some videos that can end Trump's political career.

Since then, Trump has done everything imaginable, has said everything, his people invaded the Capitol. At this point, even if Putin has videos, it doesn't matter. Trump today is definitely much more powerful than Putin, nothing can touch him.


(And that's how Zelensky should have played it, he had to somehow convince Trump to show to the world that he is the real World Leader and Emperor, and that Putin is his bitch... )
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There has been a continuous attempt to make Trump see the right side of things. He doesn't care about that and that's not how we need to deal with him. The guy hardly has ever done anything right in his life, why would he be convinced to join in because it is the right thing to do? We need to flatter him and treat him like the authoritarian/bully he is. If you want something, it has to be transactional in nature.

Personally, I think we need to avoid him as much as we can. Go around...smile nod, throw the odd compliment. Let Macron handle him.
 
This all boils down to money. America are in debt and so is Europe. Americans are fed up for paying for a European war whilst trillions in debt. I kind of see their point.

Whilst on the flip side Europeans have no money either. This all goes back to how much was spent during Covid times. All economies are screwed because of giving away free money. Putin knew this and timed the attack perfectly to get what he wanted.

I really don’t see any resolution to this other than Ukraine becoming a no man’s land between NATO and Russia. Really sad times in the world as everyone is feeling the financial pressure of capitalism. Would have made far more sense to write off a lot of the Covid debt as that’s what is causing so many issues around the world.
 
Fenômeno said:
This looks like a setup to me, pre planned between Vance and Trump beforehand.
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The stooge who asked the suit question (just watching the summary on BBC News) was the lightning rod for all this and that was clearly staged.

A sad day for the World but it's been coming for years. Ukraine had it as soon as Trump was re-elected. Next three and a half years not going to be a nice time at all.
 
Josep Dowling said:
This all boils down to money. America are in debt and so is Europe. Americans are fed up for paying for a European war whilst trillions in debt. I kind of see their point.

Whilst on the flip side Europeans have no money either. This all goes back to how much was spent during Covid times so all economies have screwed because of giving away free money. Putin knew this and timed the attack perfectly to get what he wanted.

I really don’t see any resolution to this other than Ukraine becoming a no man’s land between NATO and Russia. Really sad times in the world as everyone is feeling the financial pressure of capitalism. Would have made far more sense to write off a lot of the Covid debt as that’s what is causing so many issues around the world.
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No, it very well doesn't, it has very little to do with that.

In terms of US, they simply can't stop giving rich people more money, it has been their addiction since the 80s, and it will never stop, even at the expense of everything else, now, it may even come at the expense of the military, as we are seeing now.

Europe, to an extent or other, has followed neoliberalism of the US, last 15 years or so.

"Trillions" is a big number, as everybody and their mother loves to point out, but it lacks context, in that the US is the biggest economy in the world, it also matters who you own the debt to, though US does have a spending problem overall, but not as critical as sounds.
 
harms said:
Again, conspiracy aside, what can they possibly have on Trump? He’s simply an amoral self-indulgent person with a fetish for authoritarianism — this gives Russia and Putin enough to manipulate him with.

The idea that he’s some kind of a sleeping agent/is getting blackmailed and, well, genuinely have Russia’s needs ahead of his own is… stupid. Every possible bit of blackmail that you can have on a politician is already public and Trump supporters simply don’t care. You’re talking about an open racist, a guy who committed rape (probably many times), countless frauds, including those that he got convicted for… heck, this is a guy who’ve tried to stage an actual coup.

Just to be clear: did he ever benefitted from Russia, monetarily or politically? Yeah, all the time. They’ve invested a lot in him, he suits their interests. It doesn’t mean that he’s theirs — he sees this as a win-win scenario where he either gets a massive profit from Russia or from Ukraine by blackmailing the latter into this absurd 500b deal.
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I don’t think he’s a ‘Russian agent’ either but this stuff certainly gives credence to the belief that he is.

I think the main reason people reach for the Russian agent angle is for an easy explanation for why he was elected. That’s much more satisfying, and much easier to contend with than the truth.
 
Josep Dowling said:
This all boils down to money. America are in debt and so is Europe. Americans are fed up for paying for a European war whilst trillions in debt. I kind of see their point.

Whilst on the flip side Europeans have no money either. This all goes back to how much was spent during Covid times. All economies are screwed because of giving away free money. Putin knew this and timed the attack perfectly to get what he wanted.

I really don’t see any resolution to this other than Ukraine becoming a no man’s land between NATO and Russia. Really sad times in the world as everyone is feeling the financial pressure of capitalism. Would have made far more sense to write off a lot of the Covid debt as that’s what is causing so many issues around the world.
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It hasn’t stopped the US giving billions to Israel though right?
 
Morty_ said:
Its not even that, if you look at Europe, those that support Ukraine the most, adjusted for GDP, are border countries to Russia(Denmark excluded), imagine if the powerhouses of Europe contributed the same in terms of that.

But even that is too much, it seems.

Europe has the capacity to handle Russia in Ukraine, but as you've said, there is no will.
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The idea that Europe would go all out to defend Ukraine was always a lie for optics. The powerhouses you refer to aren't going to economically cripple themselves and neither are they going to significantly risk their own military strength for a distant neighbour.

It seems like the best outcome now is a standstill until Putin hopefully drops dead.
 
Smores said:
The idea that Europe would go all out to defend Ukraine was always a lie for optics. The powerhouses you refer to aren't going to economically cripple themselves and neither are they going to significantly risk their own military strength for a distant neighbour.

It seems like the best outcome now is a standstill until Putin hopefully drops dead.
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Biden is 82. Trump is 78. Putin is only 72.

Which means that Putin might still be the dictator of Russia 10 years from now.

Do you think Ukraine can fight alone for another 10 years?
 
frostbite said:
Biden is 82. Trump is 78. Putin is only 72.

Which means that Putin might still be the dictator of Russia 10 years from now.

Do you think Ukraine can fight alone for another 10 years?
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What do you mean alone? Without proper external aid or allies fighting alongside them?
 
frostbite said:
Europe simply has lost all will to fight. Nobody in Europe can even imagine sending soldiers to fight in a war. Anywhere. For any reason.

For Europe, it is just words, it is theater, "politics". But words do not work against dictators.

Putin knows it. Trump also knows it. That's why Europe is not a factor.
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No one in America wants to fight, either. We are traumatized by the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

As an American, I don’t one bullet to hit Paris either. Or Berlin, or London or other European city.

But to make sure that we avoid wars in Europe and here, we should keep NATO intact. Russia wouldn’t attack a NATO member if the U.S. is part of it. The current administration is trying to throw away a vehicle instead of just trying to change the oil filter. If Trump really wanted NATO, he could’ve called for a meeting of all NATO countries and ask them to pay more (if that’s the problem). Instead, he wants to gradually dismantle it. The problem is not defense spending in Europe. It has never been. It’s just an excuse for Trump. This has been his goal since 2015.

We’re gradually killing our alliances, and for what?
 
frostbite said:
Biden is 82. Trump is 78. Putin is only 72.

Which means that Putin might still be the dictator of Russia 10 years from now.

Do you think Ukraine can fight alone for another 10 years?
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Trump just as likely to come out next week and back Ukraine again, no one has a clue. He’s hard balling trying to extort their natural resources and no doubt that whole thing was set up. Europe just needs to wake up and pull its finger out.
 
The Firestarter said:
What do you mean alone? Without proper external aid or allies fighting alongside them?
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You need soldiers on the ground. It doesn't matter how much material or money you have, without soldiers you can't win a war. Ukraine has been bleeding for three years.

Let me add that our stupid leaders forbit Ukraine to hit inside Russia, till very recently that they changed this policy. For 3 years, Ukraine had the right to defend only. You can't win a war by defending only, especially not against dictators that do not care about casualties.

Yes, of course, we don't want WW3, but then why shouldn't Putin not invade the Baltics, too? Who wants to have WW3 for the sake of the Baltic States?
 
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