Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

VorZakone said:
In Scholz' mind, what makes Taurus more escalatory than F-16's? Or Patriots? Or HIMARS? Or Abrams/Leopard/Challenger tanks? ATACMS?
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I might be mistaken but from what I heard the issue is their range. They have the ability to hit Moscow from Ukrainian held territory
 
VorZakone said:
In Scholz' mind, what makes Taurus more escalatory than F-16's? Or Patriots? Or HIMARS? Or Abrams/Leopard/Challenger tanks? ATACMS?
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I think the only one comparable is the HIMARS with ATACMS. All the other ones don't have the capabilities to strike deep in Russia so they are more considered defensive. Specially Patriots.

Tanks are not use to attack deep in russia, so the F-16 with the air defenses.

Also Taurus has almost double range than ATACMS

Also, Scholz is a coward
 
Europe committed 1 million artillery rounds until March 2024. So far they delivered not even 50% of it.
North Korea alone sent 3,5 million rounds to Russia.
Europe's efforts to support the Ukraine are half hearted at best. Seems many Western governments still haven't gasped the consequences of the Ukraine losing this war.
 
HTG said:
I don't think there is anything to understand there, really. To me it really feels like a complete lie. But what he's hiding, I have no idea.

But what I'm hearing from people involved with the SPD on a local level, there really is quite some pressure from the party's left wing trying to stop support for Ukraine, because they think that is what pacifism is.
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1. How many "pacifists" are being funded by Putin?

2. Do the German "pacifists" demand from Putin to get out of Ukraine, including Crimea?
 
Kyonn said:
I might be mistaken but from what I heard the issue is their range. They have the ability to hit Moscow from Ukrainian held territory
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Ukraine already has that capability with the Storm Shadow/Scalp EG missiles donated by UK and France, they have about the same range as the Taurus and a similar warhead.
 
frostbite said:
1. How many "pacifists" are being funded by Putin?

2. Do the German "pacifists" demand from Putin to get out of Ukraine, including Crimea?
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They hold that opinion for ages, long before Putin came into power. They advocate peace talks and because they are stupid idiot they don't care about the consequences as long as it is peace.

In the end this is the result of the demilitarization of the German society after WW2. "Never again" became (rightfully) a key principle, but for those people it means "never again should Germany be involved in any war at all".
 
Kyonn said:
I might be mistaken but from what I heard the issue is their range. They have the ability to hit Moscow from Ukrainian held territory
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I was thinking the range might be the problem but they are fairly short range, they couldn't hit Moscow from the Ukraine according to Wikipedia (not the best source)
 
stefan92 said:
They hold that opinion for ages, long before Putin came into power. They advocate peace talks and because they are stupid idiot they don't care about the consequences as long as it is peace.

In the end this is the result of the demilitarization of the German society after WW2. "Never again" became (rightfully) a key principle, but for those people it means "never again should Germany be involved in any war at all".
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What does "for ages" mean? Sure, it can be before Putin, but Putin is just a continuation of KGB. Wasn't Putin in Germany before the collapse of the Soviet Union? And I am sure you know that the Soviets were supporting (paying) a lot of Western European political parties...
 
frostbite said:
What does "for ages" mean? Sure, it can be before Putin, but Putin is just a continuation of KGB. Wasn't Putin in Germany before the collapse of the Soviet Union? And I am sure you know that the Soviets were supporting (paying) a lot of Western European political parties...
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Since the early 1950s.
 
frostbite said:
Read the following, it is interesting. It is one year old, but I don't think that much has changed since then.


https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/ukraine-crisis-germany-influencers/

A REUTERS SPECIAL REPORT

Pro-Putin operatives in Germany work to turn Berlin against Ukraine
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And the following:

https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/09/17/east-germany-putin-afd-misinformation/

Why Does Eastern Germany Love Putin So Much?

Russian disinformation has bewitched the far right and the far left.

SEPTEMBER 17, 2023
 
@frostbite no need to read that. We were discussing the grass root pacifism of the left wing of the SPD, as that's the kind of "pacifism" @HTG mentioned. While your links are not false they are simply discussing a different branch of anti-Ukraine movement and distract from the original point.
 
stefan92 said:
@frostbite no need to read that. We were discussing the grass root pacifism of the left wing of the SPD, as that's the kind of "pacifism" @HTG mentioned. While your links are not false they are simply discussing a different branch of anti-Ukraine movement and distract from the original point.
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Isn't Schröder part of the SPD pacifists?
 
frostbite said:
Isn't Schröder part of the SPD pacifists?
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He isn't part of the group I am talking about, after all he was the first German chancellor who went to war (Yugoslavia 1999). He is against supporting Ukraine for obvious reasons, but he isn't aligned with the wing @HTG and I am talking about. The oldest As I said, simply different groups of people. What I am talking about is the position inside the SPD that was already against the founding of the Bundeswehr 1955.

You yourself quite often talk about how Germany has to take responsibility for WW2 etc. THIS is exactly a way to do that. A stupid way, at least today, you and I agree on that, but still a way.
 
frostbite said:
Why Does Eastern Germany Love Putin So Much?
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Not sure whether it's genuine admiration of Putin or more a general frustration of more and more Germans about the politics of the last decade.

I left Germany 30 years ago, so I don't have a first hand picture of the situation. However, I'm often stunned and surprised when I meet German tourists, mostly elder males, and hear their never ending rants about politics and the direction Germany is heading for.

It all got worse with refugee crisis in 2015. Many realize when visiting Thailand or the Philippines they aren't the top dogs anymore they used to be 10 or 15 years ago. Other nations have more money and are showing it.
The frustration originates from politics that don't address the long known and overdue issues (digitalization, education, overboarding bureaucracy, infrastructure, secure the pensions and social welfare) but instead the politicians focus on gendering, how often one can change his gender, legalizing cannabis and other "important" things.
While Germany has money to finance bicycle ways in Peru or subsidizing China with many millions there isn't any money left for German farmers. Energy prices are 4x the prices in the US but the government shutdown the last 4 nuclear plants. Ideology before pragmatism.

I don't say all their points are valid but it's the general sentiment many have. They are fed up with the establishment and established parties. Similar to the MAGA crowd in the US.

Calling them dumb and shortsighted to support populist and right (or left) wing parties doesn't help as they becoming more and more. Soon it might become difficult to form governments in some of the Eastern states.

In many cases I understand their frustration but turning their back on democracy and supporting extremist, populist parties and sympathizing with dictators like Putin is off course the totally wrong way to go.
It's up to the established parties to recognize this danger and to find a way to address the real problems or it can become very nasty in the near future.
 
maniak said:
Just wondering why it helps to call the left dumb but not right wing populists.
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You mixing quotes from to separate replies.

The first is about voters in Germany who are voting for right or left wing populist parties out of frustration about the current established parties and their policies.
Their views and frustration are in some ways similar to the MAGA crowd but clearly without the Trump cult. Luckily neither the populist left or right in Germany have idolized leader like Trump.

The second is about liberals and left leaning voters in the US who are anti Trump but frustrated by Biden's policy and decide not to vote. I probably should have better written not voting in this case is dumb as it helps Trump.
 
What's up with Macron's rhetoric lately? Playing a blame game against other EU nations? Posturing?

 
VorZakone said:
What's up with Macron's rhetoric lately? Playing a blame game against other EU nations? Posturing?

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It’s odd because to me it seems there is zero chance of French boots on the ground in Ukraine. Perhaps he is anticipating a Trump win in the elections and a subsequent reliance on European aid in Ukraine.
 
VorZakone said:
What's up with Macron's rhetoric lately? Playing a blame game against other EU nations? Posturing?

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I remember Macron with a 2-3 days beard trying to get Putin on the phone playing him like a fiddle.

Putin broke his heart and now wants revenge?
 
4bars said:
I remember Macron with a 2-3 days beard trying to get Putin on the phone playing him like a fiddle.

Putin broke his heart and now wants revenge?
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It was later established that was at Zelensky's request wasn't it? To establish some dialog with Putin.

I think the media portrayal of him as the useless naïve diplomatic was a bit unfair.
 
stefan92 said:
He isn't part of the group I am talking about, after all he was the first German chancellor who went to war (Yugoslavia 1999). He is against supporting Ukraine for obvious reasons, but he isn't aligned with the wing @HTG and I am talking about. The oldest As I said, simply different groups of people. What I am talking about is the position inside the SPD that was already against the founding of the Bundeswehr 1955.

You yourself quite often talk about how Germany has to take responsibility for WW2 etc. THIS is exactly a way to do that. A stupid way, at least today, you and I agree on that, but still a way.
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I don't disagree with you as a particular person, on the contrary - I agree with most of your opinions, but for the record... THIS is not a way to do that.

When you steal money, if you want to take responsibility, you don't just sit and do nothing. You actively try to give the money back, and if you have none, you work and earn the money and pay back what you stole and more.

If you have killed people and you want to take responsibility, you don't just do nothing. You try to save lives, you try to save the good guys and stop the bad guys. Doing nothing, and letting the bad guys kill and destroy, does not make you a good guy, it makes you a silent collaborator.

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"*. I expected that the Germans have learned this because of their experience with Hitler. Especially when their leaders today talk in public about moral values (like Merkel still today defends herself talking about corruption in Ukraine as her reason for refusing to start NATO membership talks, which would be just a start and could take many years anyway, and unfortunately the journalists did not ask her about Putin and Erdogan corruption, her problem was just Ukraine corruption...).

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* “Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion. Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing. He is not a good man who, without a protest, allows wrong to be committed in his name, and with the means which he helps to supply, because he will not trouble himself to use his mind on the subject.” (John Stuart Mill, 1867)
 
NicolaSacco said:
It’s odd because to me it seems there is zero chance of French boots on the ground in Ukraine. Perhaps he is anticipating a Trump win in the elections and a subsequent reliance on European aid in Ukraine.
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I suspect it's conditioning the French public to accept that this may one day happen, not necessarily in Ukraine, but somewhere
 
Simbo said:
It was later established that was at Zelensky's request wasn't it? To establish some dialog with Putin.

I think the media portrayal of him as the useless naïve diplomatic was a bit unfair.
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I am not going to dispute that as I don't know. I'll take your word. What was beyond pathetic is the posture of looking tired, without shaving with picture on the phone and all the PR stunt for weeks. Was ridiculous
 
Sudan's leader al-Burhan called Zelensky for help. He had supplied Ukraine with weapons when Russia invaded. The Ukrainians saw an opportunity to hurt Russia's financial interests in Sudan.

 
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