What the hell, why is Balkan politics in here?
Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion
- Thread starter Wednesday at Stoke
- Start date
+Austria
My point is, we are all hypocrites. NATO are wormongers seeking war for profit all around the globe, we all tolerate that and keep our mouth shut most of the time. The time Russia does it, all is up in flames.
One of the more most blatantly racist things I have seen on here in a while. "The" Ukraine treated as a doormat.
We have also seen you not answer the question. Would you go to fight Russians in Ukraine?
And where is he, oh wise one? In the Court of justice in Hague. He either gets what he deserves (if guilty), or gets declared innocent (if not guilty).
The other part you said is horseshit, or at least massively exaggerated.
Hmm, the 80-85% was before the war too, you probably realize that. You are also talking for stuff that was before you were born, in a country you probably have never been.
I acknowledge your last point though. I am happy to discuss it in the Balkans thread.
During the Soviet era, Russia had been encouraging Russian nationals to move to its puppet states (Ukraine, Estonia etc) a bit like what England had done in Ireland during the colonial times. These people treated the nationals there like crap which in turn got their payback once the Soviet Union ended and these countries got independent. I was very close to an Estonian person, whose probably one of the most brilliant people I've ever met. Despite being so bright she was not allowed to attend the best university in her country because of her surname and she had to move to the UK were she ended up with a PHD from UCL. So its not as clear cut as we think it is. These Russian speakers are indeed discriminated and they are angry because of it.
That's not all. I didn't like the EU-NATO in flirting with Ukraine. Its too damn close to Russia for them to feel safe about it. When the Soviets did the same with Cuba, the US came at a whisker away from WW3. Does that justify invasion? No. Should we learn lessons from it? Definitively yes
A- Countries with a strong Russian speaking minority need to help these people to integrate better in society. Failure to do so will put them at risk of an invasion
B- Europe need to prepare itself to an aggressive Russia. That means an EU army, stronger ties with NATO and to find ways how to reduce its dependence over the Russia. The latter will be painful and might include helping Libya get to its feet, making a painful UTURN from its gas/clean energy initiative and accepting that Ukraine is gone which in turn would give us time to prepare ourselves.
C- A weak EU is inviting trouble. When we fail to tackle the migrant crisis or corruption, or allow foreign countries to bomb our neighbours with no care about the consequences or we allow countries (including Malta) to sell citizenships which are then used to circumvent sanctions then we look weak and there's plenty of prying eyes watching that. Countries need to understand that national interest must come second to common good simply because without the common good there might not be any free nations at all.
That's not all. I didn't like the EU-NATO in flirting with Ukraine. Its too damn close to Russia for them to feel safe about it. When the Soviets did the same with Cuba, the US came at a whisker away from WW3. Does that justify invasion? No. Should we learn lessons from it? Definitively yes
A- Countries with a strong Russian speaking minority need to help these people to integrate better in society. Failure to do so will put them at risk of an invasion
B- Europe need to prepare itself to an aggressive Russia. That means an EU army, stronger ties with NATO and to find ways how to reduce its dependence over the Russia. The latter will be painful and might include helping Libya get to its feet, making a painful UTURN from its gas/clean energy initiative and accepting that Ukraine is gone which in turn would give us time to prepare ourselves.
C- A weak EU is inviting trouble. When we fail to tackle the migrant crisis or corruption, or allow foreign countries to bomb our neighbours with no care about the consequences or we allow countries (including Malta) to sell citizenships which are then used to circumvent sanctions then we look weak and there's plenty of prying eyes watching that. Countries need to understand that national interest must come second to common good simply because without the common good there might not be any free nations at all.
Russian stock market losses are currently at 230 billion. Allegedly the oligarchs have been summoned for a meeting.
@harms have you seen any of these reports?
@harms have you seen any of these reports?
The point isn't whether or not it's certain - It's whether or not it's feasible. It's something that cannot be risked.
I do not want the fate of the world relying on someone in Vladimir Putin's inner circle launching a coup. Putin facing down total defeat and a war crimes trial is nice to think about but what may happen in that scenario is not. It's almost strange how people have become desensitized to the danger of nuclear weapons - They exist to the extent they do for this very reason - yet people act like a nuclear response is an almost sci-fi fantasy.
No one is suggesting we ignore the past. I'm suggesting that the constant WW2 comparisons are tired, outdated and lazy. Putin isn't Hitler and 2022 Russia isn't 1937 Germany.
I don't think would have changed anything. It could have easily been Iraq or Afghanistan. When you are determined to go to an unjust war, finding excuses is not very tough.
You know what, I was mistaken. It seems that it's just France going around and signing agreements with half of the known world.
That's just nonsense. For instance, there were mass demonstrations against the Iraq war in many western nations and several western nations open opposed the war. And where wars were more broadly supported, it was always for a "good" reason, e.g. 9/11. Yeah, you can pretend that all these reasons were "invented". But fact is most people in "the West" won't accept a NATO war that is ostensibly all for "profit" or simply to annex a neighbor. Otherwise no leader would have to invent a reason. So, all this "hypocrits" stuff is just nonsense.
Forget Russian, most stock markets are down substantially, I lost all the gains from the last 2 months in a quick swing downward
@harms , are reddit, youtube and twitter banned today on twitter? Videos like this probably won't go well with most Russian people.
My spidey senses were tingling, the bookmark feature on RedCafe has served me well.
Stopping the war stopped the war criminals from both sides doing what they were doing. Arguably criminals from the KLA should have been prosecuted as well and the court Humans Rights courts were (very) late in starting that process. It has started though.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...s-long-delayed-hearings-on-kosovan-war-crimes
The suggestion that the target was to create a client state in Kosovo is pretty preposterous.
To be fair, I still think that war in Afghanistan was completely just.
The Iraq one on the other hand, a dark part of the US' history.
Iraq and Afghanistan can hardly be used as an example of giving a region the right of self-determination when part of a sovereign state. Kosovo was a precedent in that regard.
I never said that the succession of Kosovo should not have happened (and wish that our constitution would change so that we don't consider it a part of Serbia anymore), I am just saying that it was clear since it happened that it was a precedent and will therefore be used by a lot of people to justify a lot of things.
I guess you like the pro western description of war like bringing democracy to the oppressed?
I wouldn't get my hopes up. They have a track record of making witnesses disappear that the 1920s mafia would be proud of.
Ukrainians reporting that enemy vehicles entered wearing OSCE symbols as well as Ukrainian uniforms. Deception tactics.
They are. Including ex prime-minister/president/political leader of KLA. He is in Hague at the moment.
In fact, the number of persecuted people from Serbian and Albanians is roughly the same despite that there were 10 Albanians killed by Serbians, for every Serb killed by Albanians. And despite the fact that Albanians fought guerrilla warfare while Serbians were under the command of the regular army (except some paramilitary groups who actually did some of the worst atrocities in the war).
When is the last witness who disappeared?
there was early but still unconfirmed reports that Russian troops were wearing Ukrainian uniforms with red tape around one sleeve. Again, i haven't NOT seen this confirmed.
There were other means to stop that cnut. West didnt always view him in the same way how they did before NATO bombing, one day good guy, tomorrow bad, he must have change lul.
He and his familiy always were pricks, just one day he was good fit in the eyes of the west and not so much in the other, so spare me with whole im/moral good/wrong bullshit.
Its not you who were 15 year old back then and had to carry your grandma on your back towards hills when NATO was bombing my town for the first time, i was living in basement with my family for 2 months, no bed, just matresses on the ground with blankets, getting light from car battery because we didnt have always power.
That playbook was in evidence this morning.
You can use whatever you want to be fair. We saw that best in the US case where they made hokus-pokus excuses for the war in Iraq.
Really sad. I also had to live my home for a few months, which then was burned. I didn't leave cause of NATO though.
The time to stop that evil cnut was much earlier. Everyone would have suffered less, if the intervention happened earlier. The problem with appeasing dictators, is that you still have to stop them later, but the consequences get far higher.
Are you sure that's a fair comparison?
I know and it is kind of inevitable, because post Kosovo independence a lot of KLA leaders rose to prominent ranks in the government and are also seen by the people as noble freedom fighters. Finding willing witnesses will be hard.
By all means share those other means.
Your second sentence is a hollow argument. I'm in no way saying that the West is always morally right in its actions. Hence I didn't challenge the statements about the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan. Maybe the fact they fell on the morally right side on this occasion, was an exception to the rule. But it still is the case in this instance.
It wasn't me who was hiding my grandma in a basement and it wasn't me running for my life in Srebrenica either. The fact it didn't impact my life personally doesn't that I can't pass a critique on whether the actions taken were largely justified and correct.