Ruben Amorim | United meet Sporting release clause

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SparcMac said:
Because we have, we have many players to choose from to build a complete new formation the team has never used before. In the past 10 years, it's been mostly 4-2-3-1 with a very small variety of 3-5-2 on occasion. On paper we have plenty of options to fit into that, now it's the managerial setup's work to see who fits where most.
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We don't, and people who think we do have their heads in the sand, or have a very generous definition of what constitutes "very good".

If we have a "very good" squad, what do City have? What to Arsenal and Liverpool have? Hell, what do Chelsea and Spurs (and Villa) have?

I said we have a decent squad with a lot of potential. That may well turn into a very good squad with a couple more key additions and some of our younger players reaching their potential, but it's not there yet.
 
Watch him turn dalot into a player that racks up 15+ g/a a season. Be interesting to see if he’s tempted to play Garnacho/Antony in the LWB role with freedom to attack.
 
Alex99 said:
I literally said it was a decent squad. It's not "a very good squad" though, which is what you claimed.

Shaw and Malacia are injured, so we don't have a left-back.

Are Hojlund and Zirkzee senior strikers? No. Rashford is done. He scores at a worse rate than John Hartson managed. He's just not the man, and we will never be able to rely on him to lead the line. As I said, we have no senior striker.

Klopp took Liverpool from 8th to 8th in his first season, in a year that saw Leicester win the league on 81 points, while City had the lowest points total to finish top four since Everton finished there over a decade prior, and Chelsea finished 10th. He also inherited a squad that contained Coutinho, Henderson, Milner and Firmino (and Gomez, but he was injured).
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So we do have LB's.. we don't means there is none at the club.

The reason we have gone for a younger coach is because he can improve younger players. Hojlund is a senior striker in our squad. In the PL, how many clubs have a senior striker? and what do you need to do to classify as one? Be 25+ and score 15+ goals a season?

Arsenal, Liverpool both challenging without a "senior" striker.

Klopp took Liverpool to a EL final in his first season with a defined style of play. Oh I love how you mention Firmino but was he a senior striker then?

So he took over a squad, where you have named 4 players, 3 of them were average when he took over. He is taking over a squad with Mazroui, Dalot, De Ligt, Lisandro, Yoro, Maguire, Casemiro, Ugarte, Bruno, Amad, Garnacho, Hojlund, Mount, Mainoo.

There is a massive difference between this squad and Liverpools squad Klopp took over.
 
JoaoFM said:
Sporting Club of Portugal (not Lisbon..) supporter and MU fan, here.

We are upset with R Amorim departure, of course, but not with Man United actions.
I believe MU is doing things elegantly: you need a coach, Amorim has a very good present and a tremendous future as a coach. So it´s only natural that you go for him. The timming is terrible for us but...it is what it is.

I watch PL games every week and have seen many (English) analysis about how Sporting plays and people seem to expect Amorim to implement that in a couple of weeks. You have to be realistic: it will take much more than that.

When he arrived at Sporting (even in his first title) the team was not playing as forward as we are now. He didn´t start with two wingers as wing-backs, but with 2 defenders with liberty to go forward and only later - when the way he wants to play was better understood by the players - he started to use wingers (first one, than two). In the first title many of our wins were by one ( or two) goals. Many scored in the last minuts.

Nowadays Sporting is playing like I´ve never seen (even better than the great1982 team): attacking, controlling the games and not conceding opportunities for the opponents to score.
But having 9 wins in 9 games with 30 goals scored and only 2 conceded in our (poor...) domestic league and 7 points in 3 games (2 away) in the champions league (5-1 in goals) is the result of 4 years with the team and many, many hours of work.

He is a very good (albeit stubborn) coach, a great communicator and the players really seem to like him and follow his ideas. But the process will take time.

So the big question is; will you give him time ?
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Thank you! Always admire your club and I hope it works well for both sides.
 
romufc said:
The inherited team is different here. Amorin will have a very good squad to chose from, I know people seem to think this squads rubbish but with a proper coach, we can show something. We may not go on title form but last 5/6 season, you dont need to be super consistent to get top 4.

We just have to hope that during sometime this season Amorin can put together 6/7 wins straight, that gets you into top 4 shout straight away.

Especially, if you start taking points of Villa, Spurs, Chelsea, Brighton and those teams. Its like this sundays game, its so important for Amorin's sake that we dont lose this game.

Coming in 9 points off Chelsea would be a complete different scenario coming 3/5 point. He has everything to play for, 3 cup competitions and top 4.
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You overvalue our squad. At best, we have probably the 5th best squad in the league. That’s a problem. Just qualifying for Europe will mean Amorim needs to squeeze more from the squad than their talent level or hope one of the better teams falters.

Our defense is good, not great. Our midfield is rapidly aging out and needs addressing. And our frontline is full of unknowns that have so far shown their only consistent trait is the inability to score.

For Amorim to be successful, we not only need for him to be great but we need our recruitment to be incredible for a couple of windows to close the talent gap on the top 4. This past summer was a good start as long as the Yoro and Ugarte turn out to be decent. But we have a long way to go.
 
Exiled_Red said:
You overvalue our squad. At best, we have probably the 5th best squad in the league. That’s a problem. Just qualifying for Europe will mean Amorim needs to squeeze more from the squad than their talent level or hope one of the better teams falters.

Our defense is good, not great. Our midfield is rapidly aging out and needs addressing. And our frontline is full of unknowns that have so far shown their only consistent trait is the inability to score.

For Amorim to be successful, we not only need for him to be great but we need our recruitment to be incredible for a couple of windows to close the talent gap on the top 4. This past summer was a good start as long as the Yoro and Ugarte turn out to be decent. But we have a long way to go.
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You undervalue our squad... That is what a coaches job is though, squeeze the best from the squad.

I have not said its a great squad, its a very good one though. Our defence is good, you talk about a rapidly aging midfield? Mainoo is ageing? Ugarte is ageing? Mount is ageing? Our oldest midfielder is 32... and you are talking about it being an aged midfield?

Our front line has issues but its got talent in there.. Amad, Garnacho, Rashford, Hojlund are all there, they just need a coach to allow them to get into positions to score.

If you think the consistent, go have a look at Hojlund's conversion rate since he has been here compare to every other ST in the PL.
 
JoaoFM said:
Sporting Club of Portugal (not Lisbon..) supporter and MU fan, here.

We are upset with R Amorim departure, of course, but not with Man United actions.
I believe MU is doing things elegantly: you need a coach, Amorim has a very good present and a tremendous future as a coach. So it´s only natural that you go for him. The timming is terrible for us but...it is what it is.

I watch PL games every week and have seen many (English) analysis about how Sporting plays and people seem to expect Amorim to implement that in a couple of weeks. You have to be realistic: it will take much more than that.

When he arrived at Sporting (even in his first title) the team was not playing as forward as we are now. He didn´t start with two wingers as wing-backs, but with 2 defenders with liberty to go forward and only later - when the way he wants to play was better understood by the players - he started to use wingers (first one, than two). In the first title many of our wins were by one ( or two) goals. Many scored in the last minuts.

Nowadays Sporting is playing like I´ve never seen (even better than the great1982 team): attacking, controlling the games and not conceding opportunities for the opponents to score.
But having 9 wins in 9 games with 30 goals scored and only 2 conceded in our (poor...) domestic league and 7 points in 3 games (2 away) in the champions league (5-1 in goals) is the result of 4 years with the team and many, many hours of work.

He is a very good (albeit stubborn) coach, a great communicator and the players really seem to like him and follow his ideas. But the process will take time.

So the big question is; will you give him time ?
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Zed 101 said:
The only given is that City will be there or thereabouts at the end of the season (unless they get a hefty deduction), Slot is still in the honeymoon period, the wheels may or may not come off at some point and Arsenal are struggling a bit but will probably still be fighting top 2-3..... however we are only 7 points behind Arsenal in 3rd and Villa in 4th, only 9 games played, and there are big question marks over Villa, Chelsea, Spurs, Brighton and Newcastle, all will drop points.... I am not getting over excited, or expecting league winning form from us under Amorim, but 4th or even 3rd is still well within reach, we could easily be top 4 by Xmas with a good run of results

If I was to predict right now before Amorim has even dipped his big toe into the role, I would predict it will be a tight battle for 4th between us, Chelsea and Villa, I reckon Chelsea 4, us 5 and Villa 6, but it will be down to the wire
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Joao says it better here, but complex systems take time to see the results. Sure he'll get us playing better, and the style should emerge and results come from that. But to expect to get 8 more points than teams that are already performing well now is a stretch. And it could even be more by the time he joins us.
 
romufc said:
So we do have LB's.. we don't means there is none at the club.

The reason we have gone for a younger coach is because he can improve younger players. Hojlund is a senior striker in our squad. In the PL, how many clubs have a senior striker? and what do you need to do to classify as one? Be 25+ and score 15+ goals a season?

Arsenal, Liverpool both challenging without a "senior" striker.

Klopp took Liverpool to a EL final in his first season with a defined style of play. Oh I love how you mention Firmino but was he a senior striker then?

So he took over a squad, where you have named 4 players, 3 of them were average when he took over. He is taking over a squad with Mazroui, Dalot, De Ligt, Lisandro, Yoro, Maguire, Casemiro, Ugarte, Bruno, Amad, Garnacho, Hojlund, Mount, Mainoo.

There is a massive difference between this squad and Liverpools squad Klopp took over.
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Are you being deliberately pedantic?

We literally have no idea when, or even if Malacia will be available for selection again, or indeed what sort of level he'll be at if he makes a return. We barely have an idea of when Shaw will be fit. He's not played for us since March or something, and recently suffered another "setback". For all intents and purposes, we have no left-back.

Senior striker = someone who can be relied on for goals, obviously. Saka has scored 15+ in the league for Arsenal two seasons on the bounce, and Havertz seems to have stepped up on that front too. Liverpool have Salah. Our top scorer(s) last season barely made double figures.

Who do we have that can reliably hit 15 goals in the league? Rashford's managed it twice in his entire career. Hojlund's never managed it. We don't have anyone who we can currently consider the player leading our line.

The point wasn't that Firmino was Klopp's senior striker (or line leader/main source of goals/whatever). The point was that Klopp didn't inherit a squad entirely full of shit. I'd agree our current squad is better than Liverpool squad he inherited, but he also inherited a squad in a piss-weak league. We've got a decent squad, but so have a number of other clubs these days. If we're going like for like, did Klopp inherit a squad worse than those of West Ham and Southampton (and Leicester) in 2015/16? Because he finished behind all of them.

I literally said we don't have "a very good squad" but that it's still decent. If we have a "very good" squad, how would you describe City's squad? Or the squads of any of the other sides that finished ahead of us last year?
 
romufc said:
You undervalue our squad... That is what a coaches job is though, squeeze the best from the squad.

I have not said its a great squad, its a very good one though. Our defence is good, you talk about a rapidly aging midfield? Mainoo is ageing? Ugarte is ageing? Mount is ageing? Our oldest midfielder is 32... and you are talking about it being an aged midfield?

Our front line has issues but its got talent in there.. Amad, Garnacho, Rashford, Hojlund are all there, they just need a coach to allow them to get into positions to score.

If you think the consistent, go have a look at Hojlund's conversion rate since he has been here compare to every other ST in the PL.
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We've missed the most "big" chances in the league this season.

We don't have an issue with getting into positions to score. The issue is that we don't have a player that can reliably find the back of the net when presented with the opportunity to do so. Hopefully that player can be Hojlund if he can stay fit, but his best return in the league is currently 10 goals.
 
romufc said:
So we do have LB's.. we don't means there is none at the club.

The reason we have gone for a younger coach is because he can improve younger players. Hojlund is a senior striker in our squad. In the PL, how many clubs have a senior striker? and what do you need to do to classify as one? Be 25+ and score 15+ goals a season?

Arsenal, Liverpool both challenging without a "senior" striker.

Klopp took Liverpool to a EL final in his first season with a defined style of play. Oh I love how you mention Firmino but was he a senior striker then?

So he took over a squad, where you have named 4 players, 3 of them were average when he took over. He is taking over a squad with Mazroui, Dalot, De Ligt, Lisandro, Yoro, Maguire, Casemiro, Ugarte, Bruno, Amad, Garnacho, Hojlund, Mount, Mainoo.

There is a massive difference between this squad and Liverpools squad Klopp took over.
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It’s so incredibly disingenuous or pedantic to say Arsenal and Liverpool are challenging without a senior striker especially given Salah is one of the best goalscoring wide forwards the PL has seen and Saka is already considered by many to be a top class attacking player too. Clubs will have a top class attacking threat that is unquestionably one of the best in the league. City has Haaland, Arsenal has Saka and Liverpool has Salah. Who is ours?


You’re also being pointlessly pedantic about LBs. When is the last time we played a natural LB in that position? We haven’t had one available at all this season and for the majority of last season too so you’re being needlessly obtuse about it.
 
Alex99 said:
Are you being deliberately pedantic?

We literally have no idea when, or even if Malacia will be available for selection again, or indeed what sort of level he'll be at if he makes a return. We barely have an idea of when Shaw will be fit. He's not played for us since March or something, and recently suffered another "setback". For all intents and purposes, we have no left-back.

Senior striker = someone who can be relied on for goals, obviously. Saka has scored 15+ in the league for Arsenal two seasons on the bounce, and Havertz seems to have stepped up on that front too. Liverpool have Salah. Our top scorer(s) last season barely made double figures.

Who do we have that can reliably hit 15 goals in the league? Rashford's managed it twice in his entire career. Hojlund's never managed it. We don't have anyone who we can currently consider the player leading our line.

The point wasn't that Firmino was Klopp's senior striker (or line leader/main source of goals/whatever). The point was that Klopp didn't inherit a squad entirely full of shit. I'd agree our current squad is better than Liverpool squad he inherited, but he also inherited a squad in a piss-weak league. We've got a decent squad, but so have a number of other clubs these days. If we're going like for like, did Klopp inherit a squad worse than those of West Ham and Southampton (and Leicester) in 2015/16? Because he finished behind all of them.

I literally said we don't have "a very good squad" but that it's still decent. If we have a "very good" squad, how would you describe City's squad? Or the squads of any of the other sides that finished ahead of us last year?
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So we have issues at LB? we have a RB who can play LB and hired a manager who plays wingers as wingbacks. We have no fit LB, is correct.

Oh really, which 2 seasons has Saka hit 15+ PL goals ? In fact Saka has only ever hit 15+ PL goals once in his career. Has Havertz ever managed 15 PL goals?

So the lack of goals, has nothing to do with system or manager, purely down to lack of quality in our forwards right? A good coach wouldn't be able to get more out our squad?

So in the whole league you can only name 2 senior forwards ? Because your criteria as detailed in your post is to consistently hit 15+ PL goals, in a league where you can only name 2 players to do that.

City have an elite squad, the rest all have very good squads too, I would describe the others as having better coaches, who can get the best out the players.
 
BenitoSTARR said:
It’s so incredibly disingenuous or pedantic to say Arsenal and Liverpool are challenging without a senior striker especially given Salah is one of the best goalscoring wide forwards the PL has seen and Saka is already considered by many to be a top class attacking player too. Clubs will have a top class attacking threat that is unquestionably one of the best in the league. City has Haaland, Arsenal has Saka and Liverpool has Salah. Who is ours?


You’re also being pointlessly pedantic about LBs. When is the last time we played a natural LB in that position? We haven’t had one available at all this season and for the majority of last season too so you’re being needlessly obtuse about it.
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Okay, so I am being disingenuous about senior striker, you are doing the same with LB.. when was the last time Arsenal or City played a natural LB in that position?

Liverpool have Salah and City have Haaland okay, Saka has managed to get 15+ PL goals once in his career..

You are acting as if managers system or creativity has no bearing on forwards.. just sign good players and they will come good. I am afraid it doesn't work like that, there is a clear correlation between good system and players doing well.

For example.... Chelsea under a manager with a better system, Jackson is getting goals, same with Watkins. Spurs score goals without a senior ST why? because they have a system that works very well.
 
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