How old is Quenda? Dalot is not exciting, but solid.
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach
- Thread starter sewey89
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Funny how he changed something and we're significantly worse off
I guess the future will tell mate. In my view, it's a case of limited options. Much like Mazraoui, Dalot is probably a decent fullback, but an underwhelming wing-back. I assume that will be addressed come the summer.
Because at least the formation fit the players. What a bizarre post.
It's not a crazy shout, I would agree that he needs a summer if he was delivering better performances, even if the results weren't there but we've had neither one or the other aside from one off games vs City and Arsenal. The idea that nobody can make conclusions yet doesn't sit well with me either because I guarantee you if Amorim's tactical ''idea'' was giving us at least flashes of brilliance we wouldn't even be discussing rather he's the guy or not because we'd know he just needs a few players to get us going, and most of us are desperate for him to succeed.
Again, most agree it is not the system, our problems run deep and wide through the whole club.
This argument is just an easy talking point for the media. We have the same issues as under Ten Hag.
This argument is just an easy talking point for the media. We have the same issues as under Ten Hag.
No one puts stock in it, it’s just the start of the timeline we’re discussing?
And we're attempting to move on from most of those players. We're ultimately trying to get away from the kick it long to Rashford football that we've played for most of the last decade.
Martinez, Amad, Ugarte, De Ligt, Maguire and Bruno have all looked better in this system than they did earlier in the season in Ten Hag's 4-2-3-1. Once we have more players who are both technically good enough to control a game, and physically good enough to play with some intensity for more than 20 mins a match, we'll look a hell of a lot better.
Most of these players weren't with Ole, Mourinho or LVG?
It’s a damning indictment of Amorim. He’s the one introducing this new idea and is asking these players to play roles they haven’t played before, and are failing to play it well. Rashford and Garnacho have shown long before Amorim came here that they are able to play as forwards. Yet Amorim would rather Mazraoui and Dalot at WB than to do so, and they are doing a terrible job there so his choice is not vindicated in anyway.
Unless of course, he simply sees them as his first choice WBs, as he has informed nobody that Amad is his preferred choice in the squad, and given that Dalot has played WB most frequently for us, anyone can say that HE is Amorim’s first choice.
His interest in Quenda means nothing to me. Firstly, Quenda plays for a different club, and secondly, nobody has seen what role is intended for him should he join. It’s very possible that even if he is seen as a WB, he will be seen as an understudy in that role.
As I’ve said a few times, he cannot manage in a hypothetical 2026 that he is yet to even make it to. He’s in 2025 now, and Quenda is in Portugal while he manages United on the weekends. Otherwise I’ll simply excuse all of Ten Hag’s critics by saying his plan was to play De Jong.
The difference is that he's playing something that only Wolves have found any moderate success with in the PL, to my knowledge.
Garnacho was carrying a knock and not fit enough to start. So you’re hanging Amorim out to dry for not starting Harry Amass. A teenager who hasn’t been having a very good season at underage level and hasn’t played a single game for the first team, under any manager. Which says it all really.
By that I mean players that can only play sit back and counter stuff. Every manager since LVG has just fallen into the same trap of having defenders who like to sit deep, and attackers who need acres of space to do their best work, so we've ended up playing more or less the same way because that's all they can do.
I understand the frustration. Hell, I get frustrated too. However, I'm at least curious to see if we look any better with a full preseason, multiple departures and 5 or 6 additions. If we are still in a similar mess, then by all means, we can be more definitive in how we feel.
I just feel that if you're bringing in a new manager in the middle of the season, who plays a drastically different system to previous coaches, with a set of underwhelming players, many of whom aren't natural fits for what our system demands, then you can at least wait to form some judgement until we have a bit more alignment with what our coach is looking to achieve.
The formation fit the players yet the managers who used those formations ended up sacked, despite playing those formations. Including a manager who was sacked this season using the formation you seem to think suits these players so well. Something isn’t computing here.
LVG didn't get the results and was sacked accordingly. Mourinho let his ego ruin the squad. Moyes was woeful, Ole tried to implement a new system with Ronaldo and failed badly. ETH played more of a 4141 with two tens than a 4231, really. That cost him his job.
I haven't really hung him out to dry, seems a huge exaggeration based on this post:
It remains my opinion if you play 3 at the back, the WBs need to be wingers. We had many more wingers when he came and the only one we ever saw there was Amad, who was generally better there as he is a natural RW. The entire point of this setup is width/having offensive players in wide areas (whether they overlap or come inside) and yet the bulk of what we have seen is Dalot/Maz who then get slated because they generally come undone as soon as they are in attacking areas.
Next season? Well, according to the reports the club simply don't have the money to buy suitable players for Amorim's system. We should sell first to buy they say but to be honest we don't have valuable players to sell. (Maybe Garnacho but is that a good idea to sell him?). And on top of that, all the other clubs know that we have to buy which puts us in a really bad position on the market. So, if we cannot buy 6-7 (or more) quality players to suit Amorim's system then we're gonna get ruined completely. We simply don't have a choice, we have to play european football next year, preferably CL. This is why i said earlier, instead of buying specific players for a certain manager we should buy simply quality players and a manager who is flexible enough to find a proper formation, tactics to create a better team.
We did hear that one for a long time. "What can he do without De Jong!"
What could Ole have done without the signing of Ronaldo. Another gem.
Plus, I suspect the plan is to bring in youngsters to suit his system and not splurge on an entire new starting line up that suits his system.
Some takes on here seem to be based on a wish, prayer and a belief that if we back the manager like Sir Alex of course he will do good. Amorim has shown he's a decent manager. His record in Portugal is very good, his record in Europe is decent. He hasn't really shown anything like a Jose did for example before Chelsea snapped him up, heck only really Moyes or Ole you could say he has shown more than based on how you view the Portuguese league. That is not a put down on Amorim, its a summary of where he is as a modern good manager. Yet some are talking about him like he's a messianic figure because he talks decent in pressers.
The squad that we have is far from one that can challenge for top 4. However, at the same time its not a 15th/13th place squad, especially when a squad with the same strikers minus Zirkzee that often played Evans at the back due to a ridiculous injury crisis underperformed and finished 8th with a cup. Those saying well should we care if we finish 9th or 15th,? yes. We should care, the players should care and Amorim should care and strive to achieve the highest they can get. The fact that in a season of already very low expectations Amorim is struggling to even muster decent results (let alone a decent performance) says as much about the players as it does Amorim.
Multiple things can be true at once. The owners both old and new have/are underperforming. The players are underperforming and a lot need to be moved on, and Amorim is underperforming. There is no need to make excuses for any of these sides or protect Amorim from negativity. Its the manager's job to get the most out of the squad he has, Amorim is not doing that.
The squad that we have is far from one that can challenge for top 4. However, at the same time its not a 15th/13th place squad, especially when a squad with the same strikers minus Zirkzee that often played Evans at the back due to a ridiculous injury crisis underperformed and finished 8th with a cup. Those saying well should we care if we finish 9th or 15th,? yes. We should care, the players should care and Amorim should care and strive to achieve the highest they can get. The fact that in a season of already very low expectations Amorim is struggling to even muster decent results (let alone a decent performance) says as much about the players as it does Amorim.
Multiple things can be true at once. The owners both old and new have/are underperforming. The players are underperforming and a lot need to be moved on, and Amorim is underperforming. There is no need to make excuses for any of these sides or protect Amorim from negativity. Its the manager's job to get the most out of the squad he has, Amorim is not doing that.
If that's the plan, that sounds logical but I still need to see more evidence to suggest his system is going to work in this league. Fielding a team of youngsters in theory sounds exciting but we've flirted with relegation this season, and being in that predicament again next season fills me with dread.
Some thoughts.
Finances. The financial situation of the club is in such a mess I don't expect it to be solved quickly or in the summer window. This factors in for a number of reasons, including what it would cost to sack the head coach and all his staff (placing greater strain on an incredibly tight ship) and also because despite telling him he could not come in the summer and it needed to be immediate, we have not been able to address even some of the smaller issues in one window (despite there being long standing issues on the quality of the squad or being able to sort it in the immediate term).
Injuries. Yes it's nothing like last season but those that are injured are of such vital importance (Martinez, Amad, Mainoo for example) or are able to just offer other options than what we have (Mount, Shaw, Collyer for example) I struggle to see what other changes the coach could seriously be making in the short term to help out.
The Squad. While there has been a lot of changeover over the last 4 years or so, the fundamental flaw in the squad is the lack of athleticism, attacking players and those that are not injury prone. We have a number of defenders, but barely anyone who can operate in the forward positions and also within the midfield / wing back options. Injuries also add to this. Meaning we have very limited options for who can actually play there, and offers something in an attacking sense. Dorgu suspended and Amad out means yet another game of Dalot and Maz, and with what was available I fail to see any other reasonable options he could have chosen instead. The squad is weak, and has been for a long time now and wasn't playing particularly well under ETH either in a different system.
There are things he could absolutely doing better, and I would have expected more of an improvement in coaching. Hojlund has shown very little and to keep playing him has been a mistake in my view. So too not using more of the youth players, with both Obi and Heaven showing something yesterday and should be playing more minutes from now on. He also doesn't help himself with some of his statements or with some of his subs in game.
But in equal measure some of the goals we concede we have seen for years, and I think comes down to more than just what the coach can affect. Many players aren't good enough to play for us, or don't have the character to. While he might be able to improve them, I think it's fair to conclude many can't be.
I don't expect everything to be sorted in one fell swoop, I think he absolutely needs time Amorim (certainly until at least next season) as we need a big window for sales and to see what we can bring in. More time with the squad will help, while I accept there hasn't been enough of an improvement. But I genuinely don't think we are as bad as we were back in January, while still not great I think the real lack of quality or options in midfield is really hurting us and would go some way to seeing a re-direct in results.
So yes, I think for now at least we need to suck it up.
You can say that his choice isn't vindicated, but I would much rather see Rashford ostracised than indulged. He's on insane wages and has a history of unprofessionalism and underperformance. That's not someone whose loss from the team I'd be bemoaning. Garnacho has been given plenty of opportunities and will continue to be given them. He, himself, hasn't been amazing. Similarly to Rashford, his attitude/professionalism has been questioned too. It isn't difficult to see why you might not be too enamoured with either.
Quenda is not Amorim's de Jong. However, aside from Amad, we don't have a player who can give us what Amorim wants in that role. Unlike, ten Hag who was so insistent on de Jong that he refused to sign a different player with similar attributes to him, Amorim pursued Dorgu after not being able to sign Nuno Mendes. We will move for Quenda and if we can't sign him, I imagine we will look to sign someone who possesses similar attributes to him.
Absolutely. In the main, we will be pursuing younger players and not paying obscene wages. I'm encouraged.
Wait, people are actually trying to claim ETH used a traditional 4231 formation as proof that it’s not the system that’s an issue?
He literally spent 18 months trying to implement a ridiculous system that everyone could see wasn’t working.
The only time in the past 3 years have we used a traditional system was his first season where we finished 3rd and won a cup.
Since then it’s been 18 months of the ETH’s 41231 or whatever tf it was and 6 months of Amorim’s 532. Either side of a few games under Ruud where he went back to basics and we looked like a team again for a few weeks.
He literally spent 18 months trying to implement a ridiculous system that everyone could see wasn’t working.
The only time in the past 3 years have we used a traditional system was his first season where we finished 3rd and won a cup.
Since then it’s been 18 months of the ETH’s 41231 or whatever tf it was and 6 months of Amorim’s 532. Either side of a few games under Ruud where he went back to basics and we looked like a team again for a few weeks.
Well we’re just fecked then aren’t we? Finishing the season with no attackers whatsoever to speak of.
It’s more that right now we can’t play 3-5-2 so bullishly sticking to it is showing a lack of flexibility.
I’ll take back the “hanging out to dry” bit but stand by my more general point. Our squad is bereft of attacking quality in every area, throught the middle, out wide, whatever. So I don’t see why so many of you are implying that we’d immediately improve if he drops one of the defenders, seeing as we don’t have any attacking player to replace them with. If he benched Dalot or Maz yesterday who replaces them? And if you can’t answer that question why moan about the formation and team selection?
Almost as though there’s more to building a successful team than playing 4 at the back.
We let go of three wingers and have kept just one in Garnacho. They all needed to go of course, but I'm not sure the timing was right. We're basically looking at a situation in which we're desperate to win the Europa League with basically zero attacking firepower.
Ok cool. I think more to see it was not working much earlier and at least try Garnacho, Antony etc in those roles. I get there was clearly a reason his side for why he preferred defenders but it is just so obviously leaving us in the shit in attack. Therefore if he won't adapt his formation, what other choice does he have? I think most, if not all will agree, it's unlikely doing the same thing over and over will just suddenly click this season.
I also think I was wrong, Antony did have a cameo at WB and was praised by Amorim albeit it was against Bodo.
Sitting I think we’ve been naive doing is setting up players whom we want sold to fail.
Rashford and Nacho being big two but Dalot is another example. A couple seasons ago all three would easily command 50m, now we’ll be selling cup in hand.
Ok sure so the system is 343, got it. But maybe 4231 to get the most out of them, sell them in higher condition then transition to 343 once we have the right players
Rashford and Nacho being big two but Dalot is another example. A couple seasons ago all three would easily command 50m, now we’ll be selling cup in hand.
Ok sure so the system is 343, got it. But maybe 4231 to get the most out of them, sell them in higher condition then transition to 343 once we have the right players
But 4 at the back didn't fail either.
If only the club thought of that instead of appointing Amorim in November eh
Earlier on Amorim did at least have a good habit of improving us either by subs or whatever he said at half time. Especially in Europe. And that Antony wingback cameo is a good example. Start matches trying to control and contain then go more gung ho as the opposition tired and the game got stretched. Albeit always hamstrung by shite strikers, a right footed LWB, dodgy keeper etc etc.
That’s all gone out the window, unfortunately, now our squad is so threadbare. The squad management piece is the real mystery to me. How the feck we thought we’d manage letting Rashford and Antony both go without even getting in someone on loan? That was always going to screw us. But I don’t know if that’s Amorim’s fault. I suspect not.
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So there is no expectations, no standards that a head coach should reach? And there is no financial consequences to this absence of standards?
Edit: Regarding the attacking players that we let go on loan, it should be known that in terms of merity payments in the PL last year the difference between 10th and 15th was 14m£. The salaries that we aren't paying are inferior to the money we are losing in the PL.
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If we had the money to back him I'd say give him time. But we don't do we, and he has demonstrated conclusively that he can't work with any of these players apart from Amad. This current form can't be allowed to just carry on and on.
Ok, but yesterday isn’t the only game where we have suffered due to having too many defenders on the pitch, it’s every match.
What is happening on the pitch isn’t working. My main criticism is that when something on the pitch isn’t working, don’t stick your fingers in your ears and refuse to consider anything different to the same shit every game. Players like Rashford got their opportunity because we had a manager willing to give them a shot. Who knows who could surprise us. What won’t surprise is us three centre backs suddenly transforming our attacks or Dalot suddenly being a good wingback.