It makes perfect sense to exclude the 14-15 season since United finished 4th and had the 4th most goal. It's in 15-16 that the team struggled remarquably to score, they had the 8th most goal and it also made sense when you consider the players available.
The positive is the run of the last few games though the pessimist in me notes who those teams are. Hopefully we can convert the dominance and chance creation into games against the next rung of teams up the table - mouth, West Ham, wolves, Brentford all to come.
Wonder how Ruben would do if he had Mo Salah as his main goal threat. If he had Allison in goal rather than dive weirdly Onana.
Arsenal 1-1? I think it was ok from us considering where we are but they were pretty dominant. Decent gap in xG, 69% possession and 17 shots to 10. We were good value for the draw but were very much the weaker team.One of those teams was Arsenal.
And I’m not sure we’ll see any kind of significant upturn in our results any time soon. Not with our dire front line*. All I’m hoping for in the league is for our level of performance not to drop. Last night was a perfectly acceptable performance to me, despite the result.
*Although the return of Amad will hopefully make us a bit more potent.
Arsenal 1-1? I think it was ok from us considering where we are but they were pretty dominant. Decent gap in xG, 69% possession and 17 shots to 10. We were good value for the draw but were very much the weaker team.
I mean more we have played generally quite well the last 3 games, Forest, Leicester, Sociedad i.e. been unarguably the dominant team, enforced our gameplan onto the game. Forest do what Forest do but we should have still won were it not for some bad luck/finishing.
Absolute god awful comment. Slot inherited a T10 squad in the world with 4 genuine world class players in his starting XI, and he's benefitted from his top attacker having an all time level season. If you're getting that sort of top level production individually, it makes tweaking a system and ironing some tactical issues far easier as you're still able to get results while doing so. Comparing what he's done to anything Amorim has had to deal with is stupid because the situations aren't remotely comparable.
Whether or not Amorim succeeds is one thing, but any manager in football would struggle to get good results with the current crop of players we have available, especially in attack where the single good attacker in the club is currently out until probably the last few weeks of the season. He can pull all of the tactical tricks and coaching he wants, none of it matters if Garnacho still skies shots over the bar or refuses to pass to other players, or Hojlund ghosts in games and can't hold up the football. It doesn't matter what system you play if you're attackers are still unable to ever execute in the final third.
We dominated a team that’s 3rd in the league. With better Strikers than zirkzee and Hojlund we score a couple after 23 attempts.
Build up play was good, in my opinion. Ultimately, you need good quality attackers to do the rest. Theres only so much a coach can do to change that.Judging by that, everyone dominates them. Firstly, they played the game on the edge of their box, as they always do. Secondly, we were chasing the game from 10 minutes in too, so even less incentive for a team like Forest to go toe to toe.
We played good football, but did little in the final third. We were restricted to largely low percentage chances, and Matz Sels made little to no saves of note. Other than Maguire’s late industrial approach, we didn’t create one excellent chance.
Man Utd have accumulated 15 points in that period since Pereira was appointed at Wolves. That's been 4 wins, 3 draws and 7 losses.
Pereira was appointed when Wolves were 19th in the table and they've had better results.
My original argument was that LVG had more attacking options at his disposal than Amorim does. When discussing the attacking firepower of LVG’s squads versus Amorim’s squad, why does it make sense to arbitrarily discount half of LVG’s tenure, and furthermore to cherry pick four players from the end of one of his seasons?
If LVG’s teams finished 4th and 8th in the goal scoring, whilst Amorim’s is currently 14th in the goal scoring, then surely that proves my point?
Yeah, I don't have that many worries if we go up against the top 3-4. I think we can sit deep, be compact and generally be in a game. We have a generally good squad overlap with a bit too much youth dependence up top. I honestly think if we played that way this year, how we did from Mou through to ETH first season, we'd be in amongst the EL places but it would never really lead anywhere, I don't think you can ever win the big trophies playing as Forest do.Yeah I thought the Arsenal game was a decent performance and result. Also showed that Amorim is a lot more pragmatic than a lot on here will give him credit for. It was the right gameplan for that particular fixture but was different to how we played in the subsequent games. We approached Arsensal in a not dissimilar way to how Forest approached us and 17 shots to 10 reflects a closer balance of play than the 23 to 8 we saw last night.
Man Utd have accumulated 15 points in that period since Pereira was appointed at Wolves. That's been 4 wins, 3 draws and 7 losses.
Pereira was appointed when Wolves were 19th in the table and they've had better results.
We dominated a team that loses the possession battle almost every game.We dominated a team that’s 3rd in the league. With better Strikers than zirkzee and Hojlund we score a couple after 23 attempts.
Got me thinking just now about whether Garnacho or Martial had better first seasons!In 15-16, the attack was mainly Martial, Depay, Lingard, Mata and Rooney with Memphis being. That group was roughly around the quality of what we currently have and they likely will have similar records. The previous season Di Maria made a big difference in spite of being surrounded by dross.
Not trying to hate on Eriksen or Casemiro but replacing one player who doesn't have legs anymore for another is a problem.Forest could make tactical changes on bring on decent players for fresh energy.
We brought on Eriksen..
Amorim must be depressed AF
I know your original argument, you aren't remotely close to being correct. Not only you mixed players that didn't play together, you also judged the quality of players based on reputation instead of abilities at the time, as an example Falcao was totally unfit, he had done is ACL and MCL in January 2014 and it too him more than two years to go back to decent level. Chicharito played for Real Madrid and Welbeck for Arsenal. RVP was a shadow of himself as was Rooney. It's actually a small miracle that we scored 62 goals in 14-15.
In 15-16, the attack was mainly Martial, Depay, Lingard, Mata and Rooney with Memphis being. That group was roughly around the quality of what we currently have and they likely will have similar records. The previous season Di Maria made a big difference in spite of being surrounded by dross.
That’s pretty funny when you arbitrarily discounted all the forwards from LVG’s 2014-2015 season to cherry pick what you thought looked like the weakest four.
If you can honestly look at our current attacking options and think they’re on a par with the options we had in our 2014-2015 and 2015-2016 LVG squads then there’s not much point arguing with you.
Build up play was good, in my opinion. Ultimately, you need good quality attackers to do the rest. Theres only so much a coach can do to change that.
Never claimed they all played together, also admitted they weren’t at their peak, and yet, his squads still scored a lot more goals than our current squad. You literally posted the stats yourself which show this.
14/15 scored a lot more, not the 15/16 if we maintain our goal scoring average we should have the same level of output which was 49 goals. And your point was a difference in quality, not the raw stats and you are wrong on that, the 15/16 squad was very similar to the current one offensively. The difference is that the team was better coached, we were boring beyond belief but the team was very well drilled, they lacked creativity but relied heavily on the system.
I wasn’t specifically referencing the 15-16 season though was I? I made a specific point about our lack of firepower in the Forest game - a game where we didn’t have Amad available, and ended up playing Maguire up front.
You’re missing the point. I’m not claiming those attacking players were at their peak or did really well for us. I’m simply pointing out they were better than what we have now.
As a point of reference, Martial, Rashford, Mata and Lingard had 72 goals and assists between them that season. Garnacho, Amad, Zirkzee and Hojlund currently have only 55 between them this season.
I really don't get (not trying to be patronising) your initial point though. I'm saying what LVG had in his 2nd season, which got him sacked largely because we couldn't score goals and played boring football. I just looked at the FA Cup Final - a front line of Fellaini, (young) Rashford, Mata and Martial.
We had better attackers on paper in 2014/15 - but why do you think they all disappeared by the next season? Di Maria was great for his first few games, and was a great player but he downed tools quickly and got benched - he scored 4 goals that season. RVP scored 10 goals in 2014/15. Falcao literally scored 5 goals for us and Chelsea in two seasons in England. Rooney scored 14 goals. As mentioned Welbeck and Hernandez were binned off quickly - which was one of LvG's biggest screw ups.
There are one too many assumptions in your post. Atleast give the guy the summer window to show what he has in mind before dismissing the manager and his plan. Additionally, a lot of your assertions could be countered:I agree, the build up was good. However, my only problem is that we play with one forward too few. So many times in the first half we won the ball back around the halfway line, but we lacked penetrative targets to hit.
Then there is the make up where when we do have available outlets, they are very often trained defenders, as opposed to being what you would hope are our most dangerous and talented offensive players. And that is an issue with the coach. Why have we constructed a team designed to isolate Patrick Dorgu in attack rather than a quality winger? Dorgu and Dalot will often find themselves in dangerous positions, but they cannot reasonably be expected to produce what their counterparts at other teams in similar positions do. We are getting Dorgu free in positions Brighton are trying to work Mitoma into.
Does Estupiñan, at left back, really offer his team much less offensively than Dorgu at LWB? The system is a problem, it has too few offensive players, both in terms of position and also personnel/make up. Earlier on, everyone just filled in blanks to appease themselves by saying ‘once we get Quenda’ and ‘we know we don’t have a LWB’. Well Quenda isn’t here, and won’t be, and we’ve now seen the hand we have played at LWB. And this is not a hit-piece on Dorgu by any stretch. He is what he is. He’s a LB, and will probably be a very good offensive support at LB. But clearly doesn’t have the talent to play as the primary attacking outlet out there. But again, not many players would, who are not actual top class wingers. And top class wingers don’t play wing back. I said months ago, it’s a position of averageness. People say ‘oooh, he plays real wingers there’ - but Salah will tell you to feck off, and frankly, you wouldn’t want him there anyway. So you either play not very good wingers there, or you play full backs there, invariably. Or you go and get Alphonso Davies and one of the few other unicorn actual top class WB’s. Which cannot be out grand plan!
And the likes of Mason Mount and Bruno are not forwards. They play behind forwards. So this entire system has at least one too few genuine top class forward options. If Mason Mount went to Madrid, he would not be competing with Vini, Mbappé or Rodrygo. He’d be in midfield. Our idea is to play Vini, Mbappe and Mount as a trio, and it makes us less potent offensively. All of this so we can have an additional centre half for ‘build up’. Well what the feck are we building up to? I’m fed up of these ‘build up’ obsessed coaches who seem to have ‘inverted’ football to the point where they are more concerned with the creativity and technical quality from their goalkeepers and defenders than their forward players. It’s like step one to being progressive is getting a dribbling goalkeeper and centre halves who are great on the ball, however with us, we then forget the rest of the team. We haven’t scored goals for years, and now we’re relying upon one less forward. We will of course be better if our two forwards were better, but we’d still be short a Rodrygo.
Which season is this post referencing specifically?
I don't see any pressure on Amorim whatsoever. If anything he is getting an easy ride, 13th in the league and that's fine, and whenever he loses it's the player's fault, or the lack of players, not his.Surely you understand that it’s a lot easier to manage teams like wolves than it is to manage us? Amorim probably gets the same or betters that if he took over at wolves. The pressure is miles apart.
My original comment did not reference a specific season.
Someone else then cherry picked an attacking line up from the end of the 2015-2016 season, which I then posted a reply to. Hope that helps.
We dominated a team that’s 3rd in the league. With better Strikers than zirkzee and Hojlund we score a couple after 23 attempts.
My initial point was that Amorim lacked attacking options in the Forest game, and that a comparison with LVG’s tenure doesn’t make much sense.
And I’m not sure how cherry picking line ups from the end of LVG’s tenure somehow makes that comparison valid or useful, especially when he’d had transfer windows to address his attacking options and Amorim hasn’t.
I know that's why I told you that you mixed players that didn't play together and why it makes sense to not treat 14/15 like 15/16. Or not mention players that weren't at the club.
We didn't dominate them, they were in complete control in the first half, and in the second half they sat back which is logical as they had played 120 minuted of football just 2 days earlier. On top of that, they are a counter attacking team that has an average of 39% possession in all competitions, so our "dominance" really means nothing"We dominated a team that’s 3rd in the league. With better Strikers than zirkzee and Hojlund we score a couple after 23 attempts.
OK fair enough. I personally disagree - I think we look very similar to 2015/16 where I would say both lack(ed) attacking options, although in fairness that was fully LvG's fault for hollowing out the squad.
2014-15 we were better from an attacking POV but we also ended that season basically playing Fellaini ball and dropping RVP, Falcao, Di Maria etc. From memory our best run of performances came with Young, Fellaini and Mata behind Rooney - beating Citty and Liverpool.
Neither are great, but I feel like our penetration and quality in the final third right now is quite a bit more blunt than when we had a young Rashford and Martial running at defenders. The fact that Garnacho repeatedly kicking the ball at defenders legs is often cited as our biggest "threat" says it all for me.
2016, not 2015.For context it should be mentioned that Rashford only joined the first team late February 2015. The vast majority of the season was Martial on his own.
2016, not 2015.
There are one too many assumptions in your post. Atleast give the guy the summer window to show what he has in mind before dismissing the manager and his plan. Additionally, a lot of your assertions could be countered:
1) Amad could very well play as RWB next season with Dorgu as LWB which would mean we will have the same no of attacking players on the pitch as a back 4 formation
2) Alternatively, we could go after someone like Frimpong who would be a quality attacking threat
3) Sorry, but neither Rodrygo or Salah are joining us at the moment irrespective of the formation. We will be largely attracting young talents such as Dorgu or more experienced second rung footballers. In no shape or form would be able to go for the absolute top players
4) Even in a 4-3-3, you have only 3 attackers on the pitch. The no.10 is usually someone such as Bruno or Mount. If we have Amad starting as a WB, we will have 3 attackers on the pitch with Amad, the CF and one of the 10s as pure attackers
I believe his system is starting to gel. Last night we were much the better side against the 3rd best team in the country at the moment (well based on the league position). We’re now creating chances at the oppositions end whilst reducing them at our end after the diabolical Ten Haag last 12 months or so.
The major issue still stares us in the face however and that is the lack of quality our players possess, particularly in attacking areas when presented with goal scoring opportunities. That area of the pitch along with a right sided wing back needs major enhancement over the next few windows. If that was to happen and with the current trajectory, I see us back in the top 6 by this time next season and potentially pushing for top 4 if we can nail those signings and have some much needed luck with injuries.
For this system to be used progressively you do need both "10s" or at the very least one of them to be more like "10"/inside forward hybrids. Right now our problem imo is Amad is the only player we have who fits that bill, so if we have "10s" like Mount or Bruno, they don't have the pace or dribbling, and our wingbacks have the attacking abilities of traditional fullbacks, which makes it very easy for the opposing defense to maintain their shape. If we replaced Hoijland with Gyokeres tomorrow our attack would improve obviously, but we'd still feel the absence of the versatile wide attackers imo.I think your response has far more assumptions.
Amad is a forward/10. And currently our best one. He could indeed spend the entirety of next season as a WB of course, and we will need to see whether he’d accept that. Top forward players don’t just accept becoming wing backs. Even the much heralded Quenda went elsewhere because he is a winger that Amorim was trying to turn into a WB and he wasn’t going for it. So yes, Amad could. But I can’t think of any world class forward who would accept being converted to wing back.
And yes, we could go after Frimpong. He would, I imagine, be an offensive improvement on Dalot. But he won’t be an attacking improvement over any decent winger. And in any case, credible journos have said that RWB is unlikely to be a priority position for us this summer. And also - ‘we could go after someone like Frimpong’ is a bigger assumption/guess than anything I’ve said.
I didn’t say Rodrygo or Salah would join us. I gave them as examples of forwards who are being asked to provide attacking penetration for their teams in comparison to full backs being asked to do so for us. And then I mentioned them with reference to the position in itself. If you have a winger like that, you don’t play them at WB. So any notion of ‘he plays wingers as WBs’ would likely mean we play second rate wingers there. Top wingers (like Salah and Rodrygo), or players who fancy themselves as top wingers (like Quenda), do not want to play wing back. We are far more likely to have a fullback or a winger who isn’t very good in the role. To what end? Why not get a top full back, and a top winger?
And in a 433, you have 3 forwards on the pitch. Plus a 10. We have 2 forwards. And IF we start Amad at RWB (which isn’t his position), then we’d have 3. But common sense would suggest that we (thankfully) probably won’t. He’ll likely start as the forward that he is, and where he has been starting.
Martial, and it's not even close.Got me thinking just now about whether Garnacho or Martial had better first seasons!
