I think the forum unanimously agree Hojlund is having a bad season, who is saying otherwise? What is odd is you seem to think that is solely on him, that Garnacho's issues are solely his own, that our team is perfectly set out by Amorim and all our players are just messing everything up. That is ludicrous. The point is even just using this season (as you conveniently ignore last season) Garnacho is seeing less big chances why is that?you got me, you said starts instead of games. diabolical. but yes focus on that instead of responding to my actual post.
Hojlund deserves to be bashed. 99% of the forum agree he's not up to it, the only ones who aren't are the ones wanting Amorim gone. convenient
i'm not sure what you're trying to say with those Garnacho stats - you agree he's missing a lot of chances? yes, he is. how does the system force him to hit a ball into row Z exactly?
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach
- Thread starter sewey89
- Start date
I thought that given I assume we all watch the games but then there's always one or two extreme views I guess. The issue is always a combination of players/tactics/coaching etc. but United have a history of fans getting really attached the idea of a manager based off some media hype and then they stick their flag in the ground and will die by it.
I have seen someone post the opposite to you but we have replaced players and the manager.
It is on the manager to get the best out of players, yes they are not amazing but they are not relegation standard players, they are all internationals.
It is really laughable for someone to say, surviving relegation is a miracle for the manager.
Can a manager do better when it comes to teaching footballing basics to professional players?
using your statmuse site:
Garnacho 23/24 - 9 big chances missed, 6 big chances converted (36 games)
Garnacho 24/25 - 12 big chances missed, 4 big chances converted (25 games)
he's actually getting more chances overall this season, but he's missed more, in less games. which is what I said?
as i said earlier re Hojlund, he only scored 1 goal in 7 games prior to Amorim this season, so not exactly setting the world alight. he has continued that form on post Amorim.
The players aren't good enough and I'm not defending them. That doesn't mean the manager isn't also doing a laughable job, persisting with tactics that aren't working with no plan b, that have landed us at the bottom of the table. I believe the players are better than 16th place which is more than likely where we'll finish.
Nowhere have I said Salah scored goals under Klopp just because. I'm saying Slot elevated Salah to even greater heights than he achieved under Klopp. Just like how Klopp elevated Salah to those heights in the first place. Where was Salah before Klopp? Or Henderson who became a CL and PL winning midfielder under Klopp.
Good managers actually improve the players they have. Now we have posters calling our squad relegation quality just because they refuse to assign any blame to the coach. Not a single player appears to have improved under him so far, if anything we have regressed. Our defence was surprisingly decent during the start of this season and we had like 2nd highest number of cleansheets in the PL before Amorim arrived with Onana actually appearing to be a good GK. It was our attack missing chances which meant we couldn't win games even in games where our performances deserved a win.
I am yet to see a single game of us under Amorim where we actually dominated for most of the game. Even the 'good' performances have been 50-50 at best. And if we are talking about coaches times at their previous clubs, ETH was an amazing coach for Ajax and far more proven than Amorim. That meant jack shit for us. Amorim might be the best coach ever when he was at Sporting but with us he's shown feck all of his apparent talent so far. Otherwise we wouldn't be 17th in the form table since he's arrived.
I had really hoped multiple question marks would convey the sarcasm. Apparently not.Asking a Manutd manager to be higher than 16th is called asking for miracles
these are the tactics we will be using next season though with a few more upgrades to key roles. no point in playing some other system just to get us a few more spots higher on the ladder (and that’s no guarantee anyway). the players need to continue to have this drilled into them, and we as fans just need to ride it out.
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I think this puts it perfectly. We are squinting to see the littlest signs of life and holding on to them tightly.
Should read 'our future'. The future is here and it is 1 p per game on average. There is no progress.
3 CBs is the hill Amorim will die on. I would be surprised if 2-3 new players and a preseason will make a huge difference.
Garnacho just won't play for the team.
How many times did he ignore the overlap for dorgu so he could cut inside?
Nah man, gotta disagree with that. We create something once in full moon. With our creation rate, we'd need to have 100% conversion rate for it to have any effect.
One of the issues with this club is the constant moves they make in certain situations. It's like they have defaults they fall back on whenever they get to a certain point on the pitch. Garnacho, dribble, dribble, dribble, cut inside. Other players get up to the final third and don't even think about trying to progress it into th3 box, instead, oh here's when I'm supposed to back pass. Rinse and repeat. Play needs to be much quicker. Movement needs to more productive..
We all know goals are at a premium, so Amorim should be setting us up in a way that maximizes the potential for scoring a goal, meaning putting Bruno and Garnacho in areas where they work best. Putting Bruno as a CM or defensive midfielder did not and does not help. If we are also sucking at chance creation, then sacrifice a defender for a midfielder or an attacker.
Casemiro and Eriksen are done at the top but each can probably play 45 minutes without pulling a hammy. This is a needs-must situation, and the perfect squad isn't magically appearing, so Amorim has to use whatever tools are available. That might mean Lindelof in DM, where he has played for Sweden. It might mean moving away from 3 CBs when two are ponderous. In this case that might mean blooding some youngsters who are not ready. Amass, Gore, Fletcher, Obi, Moorhouse, Ennis - yes I know, they are not ready, it is not the ideal moment for them, but it's all hands to the pumps right now. The point is, Amorim is literally being paid millions of pounds to figure this out, and he's not figuring it out. It is his job to make these parts work, and he seems to think the losses have nothing to do with him and are inevitable. Like when he brought Obi on for 2.5 minutes: we were already under the cosh and this was the moment to throw caution to the wind and change shit up to try and get a result. He did not. NO idea what he was even thinking making that sub when he did, after watching our players like Casemiro and Højlund limp around like the walking dead for 90 minutes.
Everyone knows we need actual strikers who can finish. Zero people dispute this. The dispute is whether we give Amorim a war chest to buy wingbacks and whatever specialist players his system requires, when we know that unless he's got the complete set it's not working. Buy a fecking forward who can finish. Buy a midfielder who can do more than tackle. Buy a wingback who can play the role. These are obvious. But people are talking about a complete squad overhaul, and that is not going to happen, so the question becomes: if Amorim needs a complete rebuild, is he the right guy? If Amorim's style is ultra rigid and he won't change it for love or money, is he the right guy? If it is irrelevant to Amorim if he has the players he needs to execute any particular plan/formation/shape/tactic, is he the right guy? If opposition managers like Moyes can work out how to beat Amorim, is he the right guy? And the answer is no.
It's something in the water.
Although I‘m inclined to agree with you, I have to point out that there have been managers who were in relegation form one year, champions the next year with the same team.
Just how likely do we think it is that Amorim turns this ship around? There has been very little indication or none, that we will improve under him, so far.
Hojlund scored 7 of those goals in 6 games. He's been completely crap for nearly every other game over the course of two seasons.
Garnacho scored 4 of those 7 goals in two games.
They've got a combined total of 111 games in the league and scored 20. 11 of which came in six games.
My man, how are you this bad at this. We are clearly discussing the games Amorim has managed, it makes no sense to combine Garnacho's time under ETH, Ruud and Amorim if we are talking about the issues with the system. The system is specific to Amorim.
Garnacho 24/25 has 14 games under Amorim, he has missed 6 big chances with no goals so combined chances/goals of 0.42 per game.
Under ETH this season it was 0.55 with 2 goals (0.77)
Under ETH last season it was 9 in 25 with 7 goals (0.64)
If I read this and then I take 30 seconds of my life and go on transfermarkt and see that Hojlund scored 10 goals in 9 games last season in the PL (the only double he scored was against Luton) how would you advise me to treat your post?
Comprehension would help. I said he scored 7 of those 10 goals in the league in 6 games. He scored a mighty total of 3 goals besides that over the rest of the league season. He also went 14 games without a goal. So these shocking runs aren't isolated incidents.
No need to be smug, read the post properly.
Agree with this.
The benefit of having Bruno as a 10 is that he will work back, get behind the ball and help the two defensive midfielders. Garnaco and Zirkzee wont, so United are often left 3 on 2 in the midfield.
With all the talk of wingbacks, i think it was overlooked by many that you need two dynamic defensive midfielders, plus two 10s who are prepared to work back, in order to make the system work. Amorim had that in his Sporting sides.
The problem with Bruno is that he is our best option as a 10 and he is also our best option as a DM along side Ugarte. He may be our current best option at right wing back too!
Yes, we need a striker. Not just one who can finish, but one who can link up play and lead the line. Paulinho in Amorims first title winning side wasn't the most prolific forward, but he was great at linking up play.
I dont think he needs a full complement of players that can play his system, but a few would help. I would hope the priorities are a forward, a right wing back, a 10 (who can carry the ball forward) and a DM. Im sure he would love better ball playing CBs and a half decent goalkeeper, but as you say, we cant overhaul overnight.
Amorim does have a lot of needs though, which is why im probably the only person on The Caf that thinks given the shit we have bought, the profiles Amorim needs, the financial situation we are in, PSR rules and the lack of players that have any market value, then we should consider selling Garnacho and Mainoo to fast forward the process for Amorim.
I dont think either fit the profile he needs - not if we are basing it on what he had at Sporting, so let them go. We cant keep them around and let their market value go down, just because they may be much better suited to the next manager.
But why would you specify that he scored 7 in 6, please explain? Why not the 10 in 9? Why not 10 in 30? Could it be you thought that cherry picked stat would be a good point and people would just forget there were other games last season? Every player in the PL is judged over a season, in Hojlund's case 30 (of which he started 25) and scored 10 goals. How is it smug to point out bias?
The argument that hold merit is if you have a striker who scores many goals in very few games, i.e. if he had scored 10 in 4 games, you'd have a large tranche of the seaosn where he did very little in terms of goalscoring. I feel like you haven't really grasped that and think it extends to games? It doesn't work like that. That is a completely different argument.
If you want to make a specific Hojlund argument about him blowing hot and cold last year, put it in the Hojlund thread, I doubt you'll get many people disagreeing with you.
TBH quite a few of our fans deserve to have him as our manager!!
The point was he doesn't score enough consistently and neither do any of our attackers. The numbers you mention happened in purple patches and for the most part they're consistently shit. That's something more indicative of the quality of the players rather than the manager.
Also their age could possibly be indicative? Using that logic, where are the same purple patches this year?
I don't get how people are so stubborn. Yes there are issues with young, out of form and confidence shattered players but how can you not watch our games and literally see how little we create? How can you think the system is perfect but the players are crap. Look at xG if you want to go get more of a bird's eye view.
Driving back from Dublin?
Plus it was Belfast, FYI you can't drive from there to Manchester either.
I don't know man. You can't improve your first touch and technique at 22. These things tend to be set by the time you've finished youth football. He's so bad at so many things. Being a young player doesn't necessarily mean you deserve time, you still have to show a certain level.
Zirkzee is great at general play but terrible at putting the ball in the back of the net,
Garnacho I'm not sold on but he has a higher ceiling on the other two.
I think any shape can work with the right profiles and players. The problem is we signed a promising manager whose incredibly stubborn with a terrible, unbalanced and totally unsuitable squad.
We can sack the manager, but then we still need a complete overhaul. My personal opinion is that if we had good players we could still look much better than we do at the moment.
Who the feck thinks the system is "perfect"?
Personally I think a huge amount of issues lie within the available players. For one, the athletic flooring of the team is a joke. We are quite easy to bully and outrun. We also lack any sort of combination of technicality and explosion/burst in any of our midfielders or attackers with Amad out. Instead it's a mismash of slow but technical (Zirkzee, Eriksen), quick but sloppy on the ball and prone to errors (Hojlund, Garnacho), and all around lacking IQ and speed of thought throughout the team. Add on to that a newly acquired keeper that's as error prone as we've ever had for a high price tag keeper, and a star player that has no obvious fit into any system unless it's as a free roaming central 10.
You could bring in any manager and they'd struggle to build any sort of consistent performances and results. I think Amorim has fecked up some things so far (the build up shape with the inverted CB is fecking stupid, the flat back 5 and lack of aggression in stepping up, persisting with the dalot/Maz WB combo for far too long), but if you're never going to score goals then it's going to make every poor performance look far worse, and every good performance might end up being wasted because Garnacho would rather blaze it over the bar than square it, or Zirkzee refuses to shoot and ends up being tackled etc.
I think it is more about honing what they are good at, and accepting their limitations whilst working on them.
Hojlund is not a back to goal striker, I think everyone will agree, but he can run channels, has a cannon of a shot when he uses it and has proven so far to be a good finisher. I think in his case it is worth saying, he would have a few goals plus a few assists if people just laid the ball off (and by people I mean Garnacho 90% and Amad 10%) and the open goals he setup for Garnacho and Mainoo weren't missed. For how Amorim plays though, I have no idea why he isn't just starting Zirkzee.
Garnacho is the one most on the coaching staff for me, because it is the one most obvious. Someone has to make him pass, to think of the team before himself every time. Amorim has to force him to listen somehow because he has the skillset. I also think he's just plain better as an LW which doesn't help, regardless, he has to be convinced to work for the team.
Zirkzee I change my mind on constantly. he is a unique mix of technique, size and very clever in how he can take the ball under pressure but he is a fecking sloth. Get that lad in the gym and on a diet and next season he'll be great.
I still have no idea why we're so allergic to overlaps and crosses, it will solve so much with our attack, maybe one day we'll see it regularly now Dorgu looks to be on the left where he belongs.
Hojlunds only had 1 decent spurt of form in a season and a half of football. He's got significantly worse for both ETH and Amorim. The way some people make it out is that we've suddenly become a terrible team, we've been a terrible offensive team for almost 3 seasons now. It's like people expect a quick fix to an issue that has been long in the making. There is no quick fix with the players we have.
If we are all-in on Amorim, there's really no other option than this. Players have to be sold to bring in new players who fit the system, and the only players anyone is going to be interested in buying are Garnacho and Mainoo. I don't want to sell them, but then again I don't want to play 343 defensive football. If the hierarchy has chosen Amorim over those two, then they need to stand by their decision, sell them while they have value and buy specialists.
I personally don't think the Amorim Experiment (tm) is going to pay off. I think we are going to sell on the best of our youth and be left with a midtable side that plays sideways and backwards football.
Don’t be silly, if Garnacho knew deep down that we had 4 at the back, he’d suddenly play well again and make sound logical decisions instead. Just like our players would stop giving away possession cheaply, we’d look more solid defensively with less players in the defensive third, we’d work harder. Just like last season…
I doubt we have enough attacking players left to revert back to 433 or 4231
The club today closed the staff canteen and are giving employees a piece of fruit from now on instead of an actual Lunch. So given how dire the financial situation is where are we getting a Billion quid to buy a new squad from?
The poster who refused to accept it had anything to do with Amorim.
Core of the team is slow as feck - slow CBs, slow CM (I do think Ugarte is a good prospect given he compensates with fitness/interceptions etc.) I reckon that is likely a view shared by everyone on here. Sign players eyeing up their retirement windfall, you end up with a retirement home. Add a bit of speed throughout the spine and it will no doubt improve us, the question though is simply if Amorim cannot get this group of players going at all (so far, I think it's fair to say he has not) is it not just another ETH situation?
So literally every manager has the same issues with the players, but it's the managers who are the problem
Even Ole had issues but covered for them right until the end. Poor bloke.
To be fair Solskjaer and Amorim have managed only about 5-6 of the same players.
The only thing keeping me a bit more optimistic is that it seems right now like we are targeting young players who aren't strictly "Amorim players" in the sense that if we get rid of him they'll all be useless. Honestly Ugarte fits that bill probably more than any other linked target, and even he clearly has his uses in multiple systems (although I don't love how we targeted and pursued him like he was the next Kante with the price tag we stumped up for him).
It really is a bonkers claim to make. If it were true then Ten Hag had a squad performing 7-8 places above it's true level. If that were the case he'd genuinely be one of the elite managers not just today but in football history.
Are we sure about that? If a new manager came in is Dorgu playing in the front 3 or back 4? What's his best position? Assuming we revert to some sort of 433 or 4321.
Did anyone say Sporting played "sideways and backwards football" under Amorim?
I believe the team gets a lot better with some of his recruits in there and a pre season to reset.
Ten Hag didnt stick to his guns and his talent ID was shocking. We know Amorim is doing the former, so lets see what he does with a summer window.