He's missed 12 this season, 7 last season, but we don't have the split of between ETH, Ruud and Amorim that would be helpful in fairness. Young players will go up and down, but the down is 0, that is very down!
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach
- Thread starter sewey89
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They also have a much better squad than us though, plus some actual world class players like Saka, and the likes of Odegaard and Rice in midfield to control their games. We don’t have a single world class player in the squad.
And their lack of proven goal scorer is the one thing that’s holding them back as a title challenging team, so it proves the point how important that position is. Hence they’re looking at Sekho in the summer.
Well, nowadays when we put 3 passes together of which 2 are forward I get all giddy and thank we've cracked the code and will go on to win a mountain of trophies.
I think we are all trying to imagine improvement because facing the reality of how bad we are is just too depressing.
By selective analysis, you mean the only way the data from last season looks....yes, it is selective because I selected it? Nothing has been changed in it, it is what it is.
I'm not really understanding what your point with Hojlund is, that he had 1 goal in about 4 starts after being injured this season is definitely not good but it also doesn't change last season's output?
It's always annoying when someone responds with this kind of confrontational reply + hasn't even read the post they are replying to though. Just clogs up the thread.
But then this goes back a comment others have wisely made: is a manager just a glorified shopper?
Arteta has done a good job at Arsenal. But he has not won anything major. And every season their fans talk about how so-and-so isn't good enough (even if they performed well a previous season). Maybe there are limitations not just with the squad but with the manager.
A system is a very generous word for “set pieces”
No doubt that's a big part of it.
Does Guardiola win titles at City if he isn't able to buy goalkeepers, fullbacks and midfielders again and again with abandon until he gets ones that work?
What % of Klopp's success is down to him (and others) identifying and signing Salah, VVD, Alisson, Mane and Firminho?
Arsenal's 1st 11 would walk into our 1st team, barring maybe Bruno and Amad, heck put Rice, Saka, Odegaard and maybe 1 or 2 others in our squad and we would be 10x better
1 goal in 7 starts pre Amorim this season.
1 goal in 13 post Amorim this season.
My point is he was terrible before Amorim this season, just as terrible as after he arrived, so you framing your stats to ignore this fact is telling. He’s been found out this season after a minor purple patch last season which inflated his numbers.
I don’t understand how anyone can sit there and watch him play week in and week out and blame his poor movement, awareness, and a host of other characteristics required to be a top striker, on the manager. It’s utterly agenda driven.
I’m not clogging anything up, I’m just calling anyone trying to make excuses for some of these players. Its baffling.
Indeed, Pep changes half of his team every other transfer window. We buy a young striker and everyone is like “NO! You bought one now.. if he isn’t banging in 30 a season you have to live with it”
The double standards are mind blowing really, its just the nature of United though, they’re always expected to be perfect in the transfer market, despite the fact we’re notoriously terrible in it.
We just need to be smarter, Fulham for example have picked up some absolute bargains lately, how we aren’t in for players like Jimenez for that kind of money really annoys me, we let good players move around for pennies.. then go and give Mason Mount and Casemiro massive contracts on stupid wages.. I can’t get my head around it
Insane amount of luck won us the FA cup!
For every Salah there's an Antony. For every Firminho there's a Zirkzee. For every VVD there's a Maguire.
Our recruitment has been a major issue regardless of the manager/coach at the helm, but at the same time you need a coach at this level who can raise a team above the sum of their parts. Klopp proved that he could do that in his first season at Liverpool.
Yep. And while Klopp made the major signings I listed in the space of 2 summers,
Our last 3 managers across 2 summers signed:
Pogba, Bailly, Lindelof, Lukaku, Matic
AWB, Maguire, Sancho, VdB
Casemiro, Antony, Mount, Onana, Hojlund
All spending relatively more money. So it’s no small wonder we’re now a bottom half club.
Van Gaal wasn't much of a success in the top european lagues... and Jose is still the best manager we've had since SAF left
You're forgetting quite a few players like Cavani, Ibra, Mikhitaryan, Bruno etc...does kind of help to name them all. Gives more context.
I don’t think development is always linear for younger players. Several of our younger players haven’t performed as well as in their breakout seasons, and that appeared to be the case under the previous coaching staff too.
So you'd agree loss of form isn't linear either? This has nothing to do with younger players, its the culture of Manutd.
Player comes in looks good, regardless of age, spends 6months at club and regresses massively. This has been happening since LVG.
No player has improved, stayed at level or anything else apart from regress.
Ole is the only manager post SAF to get two consecutive top 4 finishes and was a penalty kick away from a EL trophy.
I’d argue Ole is the best manager we have had post fergie not Jose.
Firstly, accuracy is important - it is 5 PL starts, Villa through to Leicester, but agreed he has not been good in general this season.
No you incorrectly corrected Bruno's goal tally to 6. That is on you not reading the post where it specifies under Amorim. He scored against Forest, City, Brighton and Everton in the PL. That is 4 goals.
How is it an excuse to point out a striker who had 10 goals last season has 1, a winger who had 7 has 0, you can just put your fingers in your ears and ignore it if you want but Bruno should get close(ish) to where he was last season, but that is it. xG, chances, everything is down. How is no part of your brain screaming at you that there is a huge issue with the setup, regardless of the players?
you're comparing a full season last year to the statistics under Amorim, which represents 13 games? so it's misleading to begin with.
secondly, because I have eyes, I can see that Hojlund and Garnacho's struggles this season has nothing to do with the system. Amorim's system isn't causing Hojlund to not make runs or get in position to score; and it's not his system that is making Garnacho balloon shots into row Z. have to say it's you who has your fingers in your ears making excuses for players just in order to criticise the manager.
you seem to think under the right set up Hojlund and Garnacho would start scoring again, seemingly despite watching those 2 all season. let's just agree to disagree.
I'm assuming you are able to do basic math to know 1 in ~13 is not the same as 10 in 30? Or that 0 in ~13 is not the same as 7 in ~35.
Right, I mean, good luck with your future football observations. The irony of writing 'would start scoring again' should not be lost on you.
a world class manager always needs a quality squad to work with. give Pep Southampton's squad and he's not doing anything with them, I'd say they'd still go down. Ancellotti is the perfect example for this given he's taken Madrid to league and CL wins yet couldn't even get top 6 for Everton.
not saying a top class manager can't enhance a great set of players to even greater things, but he needs that quality to work with. I used the example before, but City this season is evidence that not even one of the greatest managers of all time can keep his team at the top once the quality of the squad dips (in his case, mainly due to age for a number of key players).
repeating myself now so it's clear you're not bothered with listening: Hojlund had a streaky patch where he scored 7 of those goals in 6 games at the beginning of the 2024 calendar year. take that purple patch out and you're left with what he is: a striker who is not fit for the PL, and who, further, has been found out by defenders this season.
as for Garnacho, he is what he is - an inconsistent, young player so you'd expect his stats to fluctuate. and again, you're ignoring the amount of clear chances he's had to score under Amorim. you're blaming his inability to convert good chances on the manager, which is just dumb and agenda driven. as i say, let's end this, it's boring now.
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Oh so it was under Klopp where Salah was just plundering in goals just because? Nothing to do with the system. Oh so Liverpool scored a goal against City straight from the training ground? Yet our goal against Ipswich after a minute of Amorim's reign had nothing to do with the system? Our goals at Anfield had nothing to do with the system? A runner through the half space. The centre back joining the attack. Or the cut back to Amad. It's just a case of seeing what you want to see.
No, actually, I don't see how it was particularly difficult for Dorgu to adapt at all. Amorim is a talented coach. We've seen that at Sporting and many instances of it, even in our games.
This is quite the stretch, you’re giving Garnacho somewhat of a pass for being “inconsistent “ as you’d expect his stats to fluctuate being a “young player”
… & yet Hojlund is around the same age as him.
Garnacho did miss some blunders, but overall we don't create nowhere nearly enough.
For me personally it's when we manage to get a proper corner kick in, without over hitting it, or hitting the first guy.
I agree. I also believe we create enough chances to be a lot higher up in the table, simply by having competent finishers in forward areas.
I’m not giving him a pass at all. Tom is saying that they both performed better last season hence attributing their poor performances this season to Amorim.
Garnacho at least is getting into the positions to score unlike Hojlund, but neither have been great this season. But that’s not on the manager or his system.
I’d argue it is the system.
The Wingbacks are supposed to get up and down the pitch, a lot of Gyokeres’ goals are tap ins or shots from when it is drilled across the box from a wingback.
The wingbacks don’t join the attack quickly enough so the 10’s are forced out wide, therefore giving Hojlund no support, when they should he more central helping out the striker
If by not listening, you mean I have pointed out where you lied, yes, sure. You jumped into a conversation accusing me of selectively using stats, incorrectly gave Bruno's goal totals, incorrectly listed Hojlund's starts, now have basically gone off on a Hojlund bashing spree.
Re Garnacho clear chances under Amorim, ga quick google takes me to statmuse where they list the games and big chances missed. He missed 5 in 9 with 2 goals under ETH. 1in 2 with 1 goals under Ruud and 6 in 14 with 0 goals under Amorim. Again, how can you just ignore the system?
The lengths some of our fans will go to defend the manager, while abusing the players and throwing them under the bus, is mind boggling isn't it?Asking a Manutd manager to be higher than 16th is called asking for miracles
you got me, you said starts instead of games. diabolical. but yes focus on that instead of responding to my actual post.
Hojlund deserves to be bashed. 99% of the forum agree he's not up to it, the only ones who aren't are the ones wanting Amorim gone. convenient
i'm not sure what you're trying to say with those Garnacho stats - you agree he's missing a lot of chances? yes, he is. how does the system force him to hit a ball into row Z exactly?
likewise, the lengths some of our fans will go to defend the players, while abusing the manager and throwing him under the bus, is mind boggling isn't it?
Sir Gareth would have been kinder to the players. Maybe the odd hug.
First, we don't "have" to do anything regarding Amorim: he's an employee, and if the dickheads in charge do the math and realize he's a mistake, then he's out. There's no gentleman's agreement or whatever.
Second, fluffing chances isn't so much the problem as the lack of chances at all. If Garnacho had netted that sitter instead of putting it into Row Z, it would have been papering over the cracks. No shots on target in the first half. No goals in the first half of a game in 17 games (or some such state). So we get out of there by scraping a win, like Amad did against Southampton. That game had nothing to do with tactics or formation or shape, and everything to do with Amad saying feck it, I am going it alone.
The problem since Ole has been that we are the only club that apparently needs both world-class players and a world-class manager in order to compete. We still do not have world-class players, and we are not getting some any time soon when we are bargain hunting in a transfer window where we were absolutely desperate - and came away with a single player.
The club is skint. The days when players wanted to play for us because of history or Ferguson etc., are done. We are now a mediocrity. If we want world-class, we have to either uncover them with our skeleton crew scouting network who also gave us motherfecking Zirkzee, or we pay over the odds for them -- and then they get called mercenaries. That is the state we are in. If Amorim requires world-class players to make his ideas work, then he is 100% the wrong man for the job and should be sacked immediately.
Anyone who has watched us knows we don't attack cohesively in any way, I'd like to know our touches in the opposing box Vs touches our defenders have in our box.
To not blame this system is incredible we cannot progress the ball up the pitch well, we don't press well and are easy to play to through.
If we pressed well and kept the ball up the pitch better we'd get a lot more chances in the box
well, it's the lack of quality players who can play the system - yes. i agree, and said earlier in the thread, that if we bring in another RWB, another midfielder, and another striker - if we get them right - would have a transformative affect on the rest of the starting 11. i mentioned this earlier and was accused of hyperbole. maybe these additional upgrades will help Hojlund, i certainly hope so, but on current performances he should be a squad player at best and we should be looking to upgrade (which I'm sure we will).
I think the forum unanimously agree Hojlund is having a bad season, who is saying otherwise? What is odd is you seem to think that is solely on him, that Garnacho's issues are solely his own, that our team is perfectly set out by Amorim and all our players are just messing everything up. That is ludicrous. The point is even just using this season (as you conveniently ignore last season) Garnacho is seeing less big chances why is that?you got me, you said starts instead of games. diabolical. but yes focus on that instead of responding to my actual post.
Hojlund deserves to be bashed. 99% of the forum agree he's not up to it, the only ones who aren't are the ones wanting Amorim gone. convenient
i'm not sure what you're trying to say with those Garnacho stats - you agree he's missing a lot of chances? yes, he is. how does the system force him to hit a ball into row Z exactly?