Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach

The big issue for me is that it's pretty clear the summer transfers are not going to be enough for him, there's too much to fix. So effectively next season is likely going to be poor as well.
 
Champ said:
Peps struggles in his first season weren't a patch on United's current ills.

There's no way that United squad should be where they are in the table. It's inexcusable and quite frankly anyone that reckons they should be is blinded by a wishful narrative.
It's a better squad than at least 12 of the current premiership teams without doubt.
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I think you missed the point, he took over a championship winning squad and finished 4th. But it was more to do with the fact that even he struggled initially without players who could play his way.

Amorim took over a team in 13th, and has been given as of yet no players.

Our squad is no better than the top 10 squads. Pick which one you think is better.
 
hellhunter said:
There's even less basis for that statement than people have claiming this is a top 6 squad
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Fair enough. This squad hasn't been in the top 6 for 2 years though. The manager could be sacked and will end up doing great elsewhere in Europe whilst we bring in another manager who we'll inevitably sack.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
One question I don't see asked a lot is: do we even like this system?

I certainly wouldn't want to see United playing so defensively long-term, even if we start picking up points. I've always enjoyed watching United teams with pace, fast-breaks, and flair. I'm hoping he will start to make us more exciting to watch soon.
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The wing backs are going to be so important for us - those 2 positions need to be filled well. Maz and Dalot just aren't wing backs. Amad has made a difference when he's been there.
 
dubplate warrior said:
He's extremely similar to Alonso, who is regarded as one of the next supercoaches in Europe.

I think any top manager who is very wedded to a style of play will always struggle with an unbalanced, and frankly shite squad.

I'm amazed there are people questioning his position here, his mistakes can be called out for sure, but he deserves time and money.
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Alonso was an instant hit at Leverkusen, Amorim quite the opposite. Sorry but as now, the only similarity is that they both play 3 at the back.
 
JJ12 said:
The wing backs are going to be so important for us - those 2 positions need to be filled well. Maz and Dalot just aren't wing backs. Amad has made a difference when he's been there.
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This system is in dire need of wingbacks. We can't progress play without it. People assume that 3-4-3 is a defensive formation. It's not. It means you can transition from a back 5 to a front 5 very quickly and vice versa, but you need wingbacks that are athletic and able to dribble. We don't have either of those, hopefully Dorgu improves our ability to do this and we put Dalot on the right hand side with Maz as a RCB.
 
hellhunter said:
I'm not claiming he's a poor coach btw. I'm just more and more convinced he was a poor appointment
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I think he's been bought into an impossible situation, but that given the season is already a write off sacking him without giving him a chance is crazy.

If we sign a Quenda or someone of that profile, a Dorgu, a striker and a midfielder and we're still getting popped off, than the argument to sack him is strong.
 
I get this feeling that people believe Amorim will surely get the summer and next season no matter what happens this season. I beg to differ in that he really needs to start getting results and improving performances this season or else the higher ups might not wait around to give him a go at it next season.

It’s true that the club have put him in one of the worst positions ever for an incoming post SAF manager. But from their point of view, they would need to see some end product right now, working with what he currently has. They would be thinking that no matter how bad the players are, this is a team full of internationals and an injury ridden worse off squad finished with 8th place and a cup last season so they shouldn’t be this poor right now.

The new INEOS led team made their first big mistake by taking an emotional decision on keeping ETH. It seems they have changed track and turned ruthless thereafter, like with Ashworth’s removal or with all the other extremely unpopular decisions like drastic cost cuts, ticket price hikes etc. So, it’s more likely that they will objectively review Amorim’s performance at the end of this season.

I really want Amorim to succeed despite him being set up to fail by the owners. It’s a very difficult situation and he himself recently mentioned of not being in so many losing positions and having to learn from this. He must win the next four games, all of which are against teams lower in the table (all winnable even against Spurs). Somehow, I wish he lands on the right tactics and a consistent performing starting XI.
 
pcaming said:
The big issue for me is that it's pretty clear the summer transfers are not going to be enough for him, there's too much to fix. So effectively next season is likely going to be poor as well.
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I don't agree. I think we just desperately need a goalscorer and a wingback. It won't fix all our problems, but our general play in possession, how we keep our shape off the ball have clearly improved. This is a quality issue.
 
Rusholme Ruffian said:
What the heck is disingenuous about that? You said that in terms of evaluating managers and sacking them quickly it's no different now to how it was in the 80s, and @witchtrials said the opposite: "clubs can't afford to wait and see if a faltering manager will eventually come good, as they might have been able to do in the 80s and 90s."
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The most recent average tenure I could see was 787 days which is 2.2 years and based on a Cambridge paper, the average tenure between 1991 and 2001 was 84.4 games which is 2.2 years.

You make of that what you want.
 
sugar_kane said:
For what it's worth I agree with most of what you're saying. Any criticism of Amorim round here goes down like a bag of shite and you'll be accused of wanting him to get the sack for asking any questions at all.

The biggest worry for me is we want to bet everything on this manager who only knows how to work with one rigid system, a system which we've never shown any inclination of moving towards previously.

By the time we get to May his system will be completely tainted and the dressing room's confidence on the absolutely floor making the job of making it work next season ten times more difficult. He's a smart guy and should know this.

I swear we could get relegated and you'd have plenty justifying it saying 'this is perfect, the ultimate reset for Amorim's system' etc.

As you've pointed out, great managers all at least have a degree of pragmatism and flexibility alongside their core principles.
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I think that the fans largely fall into two camps that have a very different opinion on what the essence of good management is.

There are those who believe in a near total reset, new manager comes in with his views and beliefs, he should stick to them and they must be supported and defended no matter what. We change the playing squad as much as is required to suit his vision, expect poor results and performances until everything is in place and the system is succesfully coached. It takes as long as it takes. A complete demolition and rebuild job.

The problem with this view is there isn't really any known timescale or accountability. The club may have goals, targets or benchmarks. We fans don't know what they are though, so it's essentially blind faith that it's the right way to go and we'll come good.

Then there are those of us that believe a good manager can adapt his approach to what's at his disposal, and what he's faced with. Show some adaptability to his circumstances, be that catering a bit more to the squad, or the approach of the opposition on a given day and improve things more gradually from there. It may take a bit longer that way, but in my opinion that adaptability is what is required to be a good manager at the top level in football. If you only play one way, you'll be beaten when teams figure out the weakness in the system or all the parts are not complete.
 
RedRocket9908 said:
This is arguably a better squad than tbe one that finished 3rd under ETH 18 months ago
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Also last season, we were playing with a massively injured squad. We had no LB with Shaw and Malacia out all season, Martinez was injured nearly all season so we had to rely on Lindelof/Evans next to Maguire a lot as Varane was injured a lot too.

Defence was an outright mess.
 
dubplate warrior said:
I think you missed the point, he took over a championship winning squad and finished 4th. But it was more to do with the fact that even he struggled initially without players who could play his way.

Amorim took over a team in 13th, and has been given as of yet no players.

Our squad is no better than the top 10 squads. Pick which one you think is better.
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I think you've missed the point here as well.
There's nothing wrong with a manager realising that his system isn't working with the tools at his disposal and changing it adapting it to suit...
Pep got the most he could out of that team, they came third, not 13th...
But really the context is different in these situations.

Take our latest victors at OT, Crystal Palace. Last season they changed manager in February, then swiftly went on a brilliant run after a few bad results, Glasner tweaked his preferred system to suit the players available and lo and behold, better results.
He has since gone back to his preferred system as he now has players available to him.
He didn't renege on his principles, yet he adapted slightly and was flexible and got better results until he could implement what he really wanted....
 
Biggest disappointment I have from Amorim till now is failure to stop conceding goals. We have decent CBs in the mix and have been playing 2 defenders at WBs, and plus we have had Ugarte who has done well as DM. But we have continued to leak goals particularly from set pieces and otherwise. Surely if he could just start getting clean sheets even if with a few 0-0 draws, it would start inspiring more confidence in the team, and would be something to build upon.
 
AjaxCunian said:
Also last season, we were playing with a massively injured squad. We had no LB with Shaw and Malacia out all season, Martinez was injured nearly all season so we had to rely on Lindelof/Evans next to Maguire a lot as Varane was injured a lot too.

Defence was an outright mess.
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This team is also far better than LVG's before injuries. Now the complete change of system and absence of preseason exacerbate the issues but that shouldn't prevent improvements between now and the end of the season.
 
Gordon'sHill said:
Not sure that Amorim is that similar. Tuchel is flexible, he played back 3 at Chelsea but at Dortmund and PSG he played back 4s. Amorim seems uniquely inflexible in his system. Alonso is closer in that he also plays 3 at a back, but in a 3-4-2-1. He has also played a more 4-3-3 formation. The best managers adapt. This is my concern with Amorim, but I hope he proves me wrong. He's got a huge challenge.
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Issue is last season whilst we finished 8th our metrics had us 14th, we were very lucky in a lot of games and we really were playing the worst football I have ever seen a Premier League team play, so this season it has caught up to us and we are where we should have been last season. Getting 8th last season was more a case of overperforming that ETH getting 3rd in his 1st season.

Way I look at it, ignoring results for now, are we better than we were last season, I have to say yes, there are many aspects where we look much better, we are a lot more solid, a lot more organised, it was not since SAF that we have actually gone toe to toe with top teams, since LVG at least we have just sat very deep and played long balls, Amorim has been let down by some howlers by Martinez, Onana, Maguire and others (I know it is part of football but we have lost probably 9 points minimum purely from individual mistakes) and it is not just the goals it is the unforced errors, game after game, and it is not just Bruno and Zirkzee, individuals are giving the ball away with stupid passes.

I bemoaned ETH for not changing tactics last season when we were playing 1 midfielder and shipping 20+ shots, so it is kind of hypocritical of me to not want Amorim to change now, thing is I am not so sure it is that simple, here's why, irrespective of formation we are lacking physicality, aggression and stamina, our front 4 players are all young and inexperienced, ok he ditched Rashford, but let's face it most Utd fans had been clamouring for Rashford to be dropped for over 12 months, so I am not sure that Amorim should be criticised for doing what everyone was saying should be done anyway, his formation is working it needs different players and time.

I have not watched a lot of Sporting games but I have watched enough to say that Amorim has adapted, he is not just sticking to one carved in stone tactic, yeah ok on paper but in reality the roles that players take and the positions in game are vastly different, even this season game to game the personnel very much affects the positional play, he isn't just fitting square pegs in to round holes and expecting it to happen, expecting any player in a given position to perform a role by by rote, he is giving each player very specific roles, problem is we are lacking in quality and depth.

Right now stick this squad in a different formation under a different manager and they are still not racking up the goals, we have failed to score more than 60 goals in the last 3 seasons, with better/more players, and it is the goals that are the biggest problem, when we do not score the team gets nervous, we play deeper and/or start panicking more and end up shipping a couple of goals and that is all she wrote.

Will be interesting to see if having a different profile of player at LWB will have any impact on how the team perform, not predicting miracles, but it could provide a little peek into the difference that having the right players could make
 
CG1010 said:
Biggest disappointment I have from Amorim till now is failure to stop conceding goals. We have decent CBs in the mix and have been playing 2 defenders at WBs, and plus we have had Ugarte who has done well as DM. But we have continued to leak goals particularly from set pieces and otherwise. Surely if he could just start getting clean sheets even if with a few 0-0 draws, it would start inspiring more confidence in the team, and would be something to build upon.
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Said the same thing a while ago. Nobody is actually expecting him to to win every game but it's the manor of the setbacks which are concerning. A few draws wouldn't hurt, but losing a game at home in the way we did on Sunday against that type of opposition doesn't inspire confidence whatsoever. Even against Southampton at home we were very lucky to come away with anything at all.
 
Rusholme Ruffian said:
Absolutely pointless comparison, but if you want to go there then you'll also know that Fergie's United finished 11th, 13th and 11th in 3 of his first 4 seasons as well. Different times mate.
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Sure, but we weren't getting spanked at home every week. It took Ferguson years, but he never dropped this low and was still performing at a better level than we are now.

We're currently dependent upon Ten Hag's start to keep us out of the relegation fight as it stands. On Amoirm's tenure alone, we are right in the mire.
 
Drainy said:
Man(let) United this season.

Quite undersized compared to the opposition. That's about squad building and coaching can only do so much
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JPRouve said:
Is that true? By heights we are apparently 9th and I don't think that we are particularly undersized, the players play with little aggression and give the impression of being frail but they aren't.
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I don't think we are too wee, we definitely have height. Some of it is just attitude. There was a chance Palace had on Sunday where a cross comes in, Dalot is with their player but just stoops out of the way and their player heads it. Now while Dalot is brainless, it just summed up, how we approach defending at times. Either careless, uninterested or both. No desire to attack the ball and clear it. Sure, other teams are taller and cause problems, but we let teams that are smaller and crap at set pieces dominate us. Southampton hadn't scored from a corner all season until playing us.
 
Zed 101 said:
Issue is last season whilst we finished 8th our metrics had us 14th, we were very lucky in a lot of games and we really were playing the worst football I have ever seen a Premier League team play, so this season it has caught up to us and we are where we should have been last season. Getting 8th last season was more a case of overperforming that ETH getting 3rd in his 1st season.
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The problem with this line of reasoning is that it requires an explanation for why/how United went from a team that could finish 3rd (and 'was supposed to' finish 6th) in 22/23 to a team that is supposed to finish lower-mid table, after basically a single transfer window.
 
RedRocket9908 said:
This is arguably a better squad than tbe one that finished 3rd under ETH 18 months ago
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If all players were fit and you’re using 2022 versions of players vs 2025, it’s a real struggle to see who you’d take from this squad.

Maybe Ugarte over Casemiro, although Casemiro had a good half a season. Amad over Sancho. That’s pretty much it?
 
I really like Amorim, both him on a personal level and his honest and friendly approach and his record is really impressive. If I was choosing a manager myself he would have been near the top of the list, if not top. But based on how things are going so far something keeps creeping into my mind,

Andre Villas-Boas

Sometimes the jump might be too big and it may never work. I hope that is wrong, clearly the club is letting him down, and I certainly feel like that is the biggest issue, but also, something isn't working with Amorim. I do hope we persist with him and he turns it around, but until he does that name won't escape my thoughts.
 
JPRouve said:
The most recent average tenure I could see was 787 days which is 2.2 years and based on a Cambridge paper, the average tenure between 1991 and 2001 was 84.4 games which is 2.2 years.

You make of that what you want.
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what are you wittering on about? You accused me of being disingenuous and that is what my last post was addressing - I couldn't care less about average managerial tenures. Although it does show how ridiculous it is that people are talking about this after 3 fecking months...
 
peridigm said:
We need a goalstopper as well.
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I agree but you need to score goals to win or even draw games and Hojlund and Zirkzee are simply awful.

With an average squad we will always make a mistake in a game, it's very difficult for a world class squad not to make a single error. The difference is we'll make several good chances, not put one away, make one error or the goalie does his best to feck up and we're screwed.
 
hellhunter said:
There's not that much to write home about when we're narrowly beating the worst team in PL history or scrape by Rangers B-team
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But somehow you fail to see any positive signs in our general play.
Every narrow win is lucky, every narrow defeat is deserved.
 
I am struggling to see anything that he has done that has been good, tbh. We have pulled out a couple of good results I guess. The general standard of play has been poor and I don't think morale is high at all.

Obviously, prepared to be a bit patient, but I am not sure I seem him being our manager beyond next season at this rate.
 
JPRouve said:
You see that's the funny part. Tuchel has largely been a 4231 manager but because he adapted to what he had with Chelsea people are now stating that he is a 343 manager. Tuchel and Amorim don't have similar systems, Tuchel has one system that is a bit like Amorim's but he has many other.
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Tuchel and Conte's use of three at the back is mentioned as the reason that formation could be successful in (and win) the PL, completely disregarding the fact that both managers had the personnel suited to play it.
 
Toshey said:
But somehow you fail to see any positive signs in our general play.
Every narrow win is lucky, every narrow defeat is deserved.
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I didn't say that, did I? Don't think there's much point to judge him on a match by match basis anyway, it's enough to look at his tenure so far. We had great matches, unconvincing and outright terrible ones, and that's ignoring the disastrous results
 
Rusholme Ruffian said:
what are you wittering on about? You accused me of being disingenuous and that is what my last post was addressing - I couldn't care less about average managerial tenures. Although it does show how ridiculous it is that people are talking about this after 3 fecking months...
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I made the point that unsuccessful managers weren't given time then, as they are not now. My "confident" statement was correct.
 
Champ said:
But pep hasn't stuck to the same system, he changes formations yet the principles stay the same.
SAF used to change formations depending on the opponent, Klopp used to tinker and adapt, the best managers are not defined by their system, they are defined by the way the team play, be that relentless running, pressing or domination of the ball.
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I was overwhelmed by similar posts to yours so apologies to everyone if I am answering this post rather then individually answer to each and every one separately. The latter might be perceived as spamming but if Mods disagree to that please msg me and I'll do it

My initial post was in response of Amorim's players being able to adapt to different styles if things go wrong. I said that yes its a niche system but I can see a number of managers being able to work with such players.

Regarding to Amorim As said to @JPRouve I wasn't a big fan of us bringing in Amorim in the first place. I thought that his system wouldn't fit the players we've got which lead to an overhaul no one really wanted and I doubt the club can really afford. Amorim is described as very disciplined, principled and a great man manager which are good traits in management. The fact that this Johnny come lately took the bull from the horns regarding the likes of Rashford is quite staggering as none of our former managers even dared to do that. However he's also stubborn regarding his system. One can find this as damning but we're talking about a 40 year old manager here ie a kid in football management terms. Anyone old enough to remember Sir Alex during his early years at United would know how obsessed he was with the 4-4-2 system and how a transition to a 4-2-3-1 was gradual, slow and painful (4-4-1-1 was a mess) and that the 4-2-3-1 was really implemented once Carlos Q joined. Back then it was all about we don't need to adapt to anyone + 'opponents should adapt to us' sort of nonsense

All this information was gathered by me ie a random guy with issues who do not particularly follow the Portuguese league. I would expect INEOS to have done a much thorough work on the guy. Since they did then they must have concluded that he's worth invested upon, that its the system they want and that they are willing to go through the pains (financial and time) for him to implement it. Cause it would be very silly for any organization to bring someone whose obsessed with a set system and who had never really implemented anything else only to be told few months later that actually they want him to change it.
 
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