Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach

Berbaclass said:
It always has been to be fair. He was written off as a waste of money by many alarmingly quickly.
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I'm absolutely stunned some can't see his potential. He's going to surprise a lot of people in a better setup where he actually gets decent chances.
 
If these players are smart, they'll turn down the call ups this break to have 2 weeks of training uninterrupted with the new gaffer...
 
Berbaclass said:
Yes of course but who knows if Hojlund will develop to the level of Gyokeres by the time he is 26.

You can't just assume that will happen (I would love it to)
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Exactly, who knows is correct.

Who knows what Amorim will get out of Hojlund in the next couple of years.

What I will say is that if you put Hojlund in the Portuguese league for the most dominant side who creates the most chances and gave him penalties for 2 seasons. I reckon we would see some pretty high numbers considering he got 16 in England for a side that doesn't create much.
 
OverratedOpinion said:
Exactly, who knows is correct.

Who knows what Amorim will get out of Hojlund in the next couple of years.

What I will say is that if you put Hojlund in the Portuguese league for the most dominant side who creates the most chances and gave him penalties for 2 seasons. I reckon we would see some pretty high numbers considering he got 16 in England for a side that doesn't create much.
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Rasmus would do well in the Portuguese league of course he's just not as polished of a player as Gyokeres for obvious reasons. If he can get to that level, and I hope he can, he will be a terrific player for us.
 
Oranges038 said:
Player development isn't linear though is it?

Sometimes a striker can flourish, but he just needs to be in the right environment. Some are just late bloomers and it takes time for everything to click into place. We've seen it with loads of players over the years, a great example would be Michu at Swansea, for 1 season he was superb. Robbie Keane at Spurs is another, he lasted about 6 months at Liverpool. There's loads of examples of strikers who looked good in weaker teams and weaker leagues that couldn't do it when they stepped up a level.

Gyökeres is 26 and up until a couple of years ago he was playing in the Championship. The last 2 years he's looked close to being a really good striker. Hojlund is only 21.. at 21 Gyökeres couldn't get a game at Brighton. Could barely score a goal in BL2 or the Championship.

At 19 Hojlund was playing and scoring in Serie, at 20 he scored 16 goals for Utd in his first season. He's ahead of where Gyökeres was at the same age, so who's to say in 5 years time, he won't be even further ahead of him.

Hojlund is a very good striker for his age and he's been in a difficult environment to score goals. His conversion rate last season was one of the highest in the league. Let's see what kind of impact Anorim can have with him.
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To add to this, United for a long time hasn't created good/easy chances. People tend to use tap ins against strikers but that's how prime Barcelona, Real Madrid, City, Liverpool or United scored the bulk of their goals by creating massive chances after massive chances. If you look at the chances missed by Zirkzee or Hojlund the passes are very often completely off in the sense that the ball is either in the wrong area or has the wrong weight, yes it is close but it's not actually a tap in and it's a unimpressive but difficult scoring chance, like a few games ago people were on Zirkzee's back because he didn't score a goal from a pass that was made 50cm behind him these kind of things look close but it's nearly impossible to actually deflect that ball forward let alone shoot.

Hopefully Amorim has the LVG secret sauce and can develop our squad's passing game and their ability to execute passes properly, on the correct foot, correct area and correct weight.
 
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Find the snobbery towards the Portuguese league a bit daft considering our best player was playing in the Portuguese league at 26 years old.

Look at the numbers he's done since coming over here.
 
Oranges038 said:
Player development isn't linear though is it?

Sometimes a striker can flourish, but he just needs to be in the right environment. Some are just late bloomers and it takes time for everything to click into place. We've seen it with loads of players over the years, a great example would be Michu at Swansea, for 1 season he was superb. Robbie Keane at Spurs is another, he lasted about 6 months at Liverpool. There's loads of examples of strikers who looked good in weaker teams and weaker leagues that couldn't do it when they stepped up a level.

Gyökeres is 26 and up until a couple of years ago he was playing in the Championship. The last 2 years he's looked close to being a really good striker. Hojlund is only 21.. at 21 Gyökeres couldn't get a game at Brighton. Could barely score a goal in BL2 or the Championship.

At 19 Hojlund was playing and scoring in Serie, at 20 he scored 16 goals for Utd in his first season. He's ahead of where Gyökeres was at the same age, so who's to say in 5 years time, he won't be even further ahead of him.

Hojlund is a very good striker for his age and he's been in a difficult environment to score goals. His conversion rate last season was one of the highest in the league. Let's see what kind of impact Anorim can have with him.
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Good post.
 
Sly said:
Heh Gyökeres is gone sooner or later. I'm afraid of the january market if he keeps this form at Sporting and the Swedish NT but he's 100% gone next season.

I think Zirkzee can play the role Paulinho had at Sporting when we played two up with him next to Gyokeres specifically in games against bottom tables clubs with ultra defensive setups. Paulinho played like a false winger, forward, playing from the inside which enabled us to fill the spaces that a very mobile forward like Gyokeres opens up. Opposing CB would have to deal with two mobile references which made their work way harder. Zirkzee like Paulinho would have more chances to finish due to Hojlund mobility and work rate.

With Amorim tactical approach, I think both Hojlund and Zirkzee can be compatible in certain circunstances. They could play off each other, in opposite movements. When one looks for support, the other could play in depth. I think United could have an interesting dual threat.
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Interesting, I assumed that it was possible but wasn't sure if he may prefer dribblers over "mobile playmakers". Also does he use wingers in some of his 343s like Cruyff used to?
 
Berbaclass said:
Find the snobbery towards the Portuguese league a bit daft considering our best player was playing in the Portuguese league at 26 years old.

Look at the numbers he's done since coming over here.
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Our best player in our history within the modern PL also came from the Portuguese league
 
Berbaclass said:
Find the snobbery towards the Portuguese league a bit daft considering our best player was playing in the Portuguese league at 26 years old.

Look at the numbers he's done since coming over here.
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I agree. But in some respects it is a lot easier for Gyokeres to score tons of goals against the defences over there than it would be against our defences. We’re in a much more physical league
 
Berbaclass said:
Rasmus would do well in the Portuguese league of course he's just not as polished of a player as Gyokeres for obvious reasons. If he can get to that level, and I hope he can, he will be a terrific player for us.
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I'm not sure what level you are talking about.

We had seen Gyokeres at 24 and we saw what he was, a decent Championship striker. Just under 1 in 2.

We see him at 26 and he's now apparently world class. The biggest differentiator I can see is that he's playing for the most dominant side in a league where Bas Dost, Darwin Nunez and a nearly 35 year old Jonas scored at ridiculous rates.

Maybe he is world class and it's a lot of Amorim's work. If so then let's see what he does with Hojlund who's starting point is definitely higher.
 
DJ_21 said:
I agree. But in some respects it is a lot easier for Gyokeres to score tons of goals against the defences over there than it would be against our defences. We’re in a much more physical league
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In that case thought I would argue that the Championship is a more physical league than the PL. He did pretty well in there against 'physical' defenders.
 
JPRouve said:
To add to this, United for a long time hasn't created good/eady chances. People tend to use tap ins against strikers but that's how prime Barcelona, Real Madrid, City, Liverpool or United scored the bulk of their goals by creating massive chances after massive chances. If you look at the chances missed by Zirkzee or Hojlund the passes are very often completely off in the sense that the ball is either in the wrong area or has the wrong weight, yes it is close but it's not actually a tap in and it's a unimpressive but difficult scoring chance, like a few games ago people were on Zirkzee's back because he didn't score a goal from a pass that was made 50cm behind him these kind of things look close but it's nearly impossible to actually deflect that ball forward let alone shoot.

Hopefully Amorim has the LVG secret sauce and can develop our squad's passing game and their ability to execute passes properly, on the correct foot, correct area and correct weight.
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Totally, particularly the bolded part. The amount of times our players choose the wrong foot to pass or shoot is super annoying to say the least, the likes of Bruno for example who had plenty of time and space in midfield somehow chooses his left foot for 20-30 yard pass instead of having more composure to use his right, or in situations where he shoots or passes on his outside of his right foot as opposed to his left, and on numerous times he shoots with his left outside of the penalty box with packed players in front of him.

It’s these frustrating situations where we always struggle to have control and end up with high turnovers.
 
OverratedOpinion said:
I'm not sure what level you are talking about.

We had seen Gyokeres at 24 and we saw what he was, a decent Championship striker. Just under 1 in 2.

We see him at 26 and he's now apparently world class. The biggest differentiator I can see is that he's playing for the most dominant side in a league where Bas Dost, Darwin Nunez and a nearly 35 year old Jonas scored at ridiculous rates.

Maybe he is world class and it's a lot of Amorim's work. If so then let's see what he does with Hojlund who's starting point is definitely higher.
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What do you mean you don't know what level I'm talking about?

Rasmus isn't as good as Gyokeres currently.
 
Shark said:
The level of Gyokeres is currently the Portuguese league.
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You say that now, but you'd also moan that we didn't sign him if he went to say.....Arsenal and started banging in the goals, calling our transfer team "inept" for making such a mistake.
 
Berbaclass said:
What do you mean you don't know what level I'm talking about?

Rasmus isn't as good as Gyokeres currently.
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World class or very close. That's what your comments in both threads sound like and that's the sort of transfer fee he will go for that you are advocating us spending.

I'd personally be a little bit nervous that we may end up with just a okay Premier League striker for so much money.
 
JPRouve said:
To add to this, United for a long time hasn't created good/eady chances. People tend to use tap ins against strikers but that's how prime Barcelona, Real Madrid, City, Liverpool or United scored the bulk of their goals by creating massive chances after massive chances. If you look at the chances missed by Zirkzee or Hojlund the passes are very often completely off in the sense that the ball is either in the wrong area or has the wrong weight, yes it is close but it's not actually a tap in and it's a unimpressive but difficult scoring chance, like a few games ago people were on Zirkzee's back because he didn't score a goal from a pass that was made 50cm behind him these kind of things look close but it's nearly impossible to actually deflect that ball forward let alone shoot.

Hopefully Amorim has the LVG secret sauce and can develop our squad's passing game and their ability to execute passes properly, on the correct foot, correct area and correct weight.
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This has been bugging me for the longest time, a lot of moves break down because a simple pass is played behind a player, to the wrong foot, poorly weighted or lifted when it should stay on the ground.
 
DJ_21 said:
I agree. But in some respects it is a lot easier for Gyokeres to score tons of goals against the defences over there than it would be against our defences. We’re in a much more physical league
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I think that it depends a lot on who the player is playing for and the player himself, some players will find it easier to score for a top team while others will struggle. Just take International Football as an example, the level of competition is weaker but because players are also playing for weaker sides they tend to not match their normal output and then there are some players that are comfortable big fishes in small ponds and are far better at International Football or for "smaller" sides Podolski, Forlan, Van der Vaart and a few others come to mind.
 
When he says he would have been paid three times as much it would probably be something similar to £150k a week on a 5 year contract as opposed to £100k on 2 and half year contract rather than it being a flat out x3 weekly for £300k. That means plenty of clubs could still afford to pay the three times as much he quoted.

He's taking a risk coming on such a short contract because if he fails he doesn't get his monster set you up for life payout like most managers at their first huge job get, like say a Graham Potter.
 
OverratedOpinion said:
World class or very close. That's what your comments in both threads sound like and that's the sort of transfer fee he will go for that you are advocating us spending.

I'd personally be a little bit nervous that we may end up with just a okay Premier League striker for so much money.
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You said world class not me.

People are overrating the PL.

Look at the list of some of the recent Championship top goalscorers. Mitro made the step up, Toney made the step up, Chris Wood arguably, even fecking Pukki got two 11 goal seasons. He's a better player than all of those.

Gyokeres would comfortably hit 15-20 goals for most teams. More in a team like Arsenal/Liverpool/United
 
https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...r-united-saved-sporting-erik-ten-hag-analysis

Before that, he had cut his teeth in coaching at the third-tier side Casa Pia before going to Braga B and enjoying his promotion to the club’s first team. The Sporting president, Frederico Varandas, and the sporting director, Hugo Viana, took deep breaths and paid Amorim’s €10m release clause.

Not the first time he's been paid for.
 
JPRouve said:
To add to this, United for a long time hasn't created good/eady chances. People tend to use tap ins against strikers but that's how prime Barcelona, Real Madrid, City, Liverpool or United scored the bulk of their goals by creating massive chances after massive chances. If you look at the chances missed by Zirkzee or Hojlund the passes are very often completely off in the sense that the ball is either in the wrong area or has the wrong weight, yes it is close but it's not actually a tap in and it's a unimpressive but difficult scoring chance, like a few games ago people were on Zirkzee's back because he didn't score a goal from a pass that was made 50cm behind him these kind of things look close but it's nearly impossible to actually deflect that ball forward let alone shoot.

Hopefully Amorim has the LVG secret sauce and can develop our squad's passing game and their ability to execute passes properly, on the correct foot, correct area and correct weight.
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Totally agree, the service has been at best sub par. The last 1/3 of the field seems to have been missed in training and tactics. They did have a couple of nice 1-2 early in the season that gave me some hope, but that was an exception.
 
United have always tried to hire ceiling raising coaches in recent times. Feels like this hire signals a slight diversion of approach. Amorim will be a floor raising coach and I think 90%+ of this squads current problems are quite basic and raising the floor of performances will take this team easily to top 4 or 5 level.

We can worry in 18 months time or so about raising the ceiling of the performances. Getting the basics right, getting a shape and a defined style that players know and is made simple will be the first and most important steps in the interim. We can worry about the sexy/game changing signings later.

The seemingly great thing about Amorim is that he’ll drag his team along and unify them. By all accounts, he's a terrific communicator and does what good leaders do in that he makes his players jobs very, very simple. They will all have designated/specific zones to operate in and they’ll attack and defend in that same shape. It will be made super simple for them as opposed to whatever the hell they couldn't figure out for 20 months prior...

His patterns are easy to understand and simple to execute, it requires very little mental rigor outside of effort but if executed properly, work very well and becomes autonomous early on.

If this group of players buy into it early, we’ll see a big uptick in performances in short order.

It could take a little time happening mid-season and all, and it could get worse at first before it gets better during the bedding-in/adaptation period. That being said, I’m pretty confident that by Feb/March time, we’ll see far more of a conducive and clearly defined style than we ever saw under ETH. I think it will be very obvious what Amorim will be trying to do soon and I doubt that he'll be the type to shy away and abandon his principles.
 
Berbaclass said:
You said world class not me.

People are overrating the PL.

Look at the list of some of the recent Championship top goalscorers. Mitro made the step up, Toney made the step up, Chris Wood arguably, even fecking Pukki got two 11 goal seasons. He's a better player than all of those.

Gyokeres would comfortably hit 15-20 goals for most teams. More in a team like Arsenal/Liverpool/United
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Yes you listed a group of okay Premier League strikers. I wouldn't sign any of them for 80 plus million.

Who knows what he would score in the Prem. Last time he played in England he was a less than 1 in in 2 scorer in the Championship.

As I've said, maybe a lot has changed. I won't claim to know either way, I just know that a lot of pretty average strikers score a lot of goals in Portugal.
 
Rolaholic said:
United have always tried to hire ceiling raising coaches in recent times.

Feels like this signals a diversion of approach. Amorim will be a floor raising coach and I think 90%+ of this squads current problems are quite basic and raising the floor of performances will take this team easily to top 4 or 5 level.

We can worry in 18 months time or so about raising the ceiling of the performances. Getting the basics right, getting a shape and a defined style that players know and is made simple will be the first steps in the interim. We can worry about the sexy/ game changing signings later.

The seemingly great thing about Amorim is that he’ll drag his team along and unify them. By all accounts, he's a terrific communicator and he makes his players jobs very, very simple. They will all have designated/specific zones to operate in and they’ll attack and defend in that same shape. It will be made super simple for them as opposed to whatever the hell they couldn't figure out for 20 months prior...

His patterns are easy to understand and simple to execute, it requires very little mental rigor outside of effort but if executed properly, work very well and becomes autonomous early on.

If this group of players buy into it early, we’ll see a big uptick in performances in short order.

It could take a little time happening mid-season and all, and it could get worse at first before it gets better during the bedding in period. That being said, I’m pretty confident that by Feb/March time, we’ll see far more of a conducive and clearly defined style than we ever saw under ETH. I think it will be very obvious what Amorim will be trying to do and I doubt that he'll be the type to shy away and abandon his principles.
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You watched the Tifo video didn't you?
 
OverratedOpinion said:
I'm not sure what level you are talking about.

We had seen Gyokeres at 24 and we saw what he was, a decent Championship striker. Just under 1 in 2.

We see him at 26 and he's now apparently world class. The biggest differentiator I can see is that he's playing for the most dominant side in a league where Bas Dost, Darwin Nunez and a nearly 35 year old Jonas scored at ridiculous rates.

Maybe he is world class and it's a lot of Amorim's work. If so then let's see what he does with Hojlund who's starting point is definitely higher.
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I'm sure Amorim had a positive impact on Gyokeres in the 15 months they worked together, but he was ready as soon as he landed in Portugal to start playing for Sporting. He hit the ground running.


Take a look at his last season at Coventry. He had 21 goals (2nd in the league) and 12 assists (1st) in a mid table team that barely scored a goal a game (46 games, 58 goals, average 1,26 goals/game).
Looking back at those numbers at Coventry and the way he immediately performed for Sporting, the logical conclusion is that he was already a star who hadn't been discovered yet.
Great scouting from Sporting.
 
JPRouve said:
Interesting, I assumed that it was possible but wasn't sure if he may prefer dribblers over "mobile playmakers". Also does he use wingers in some of his 343s like Cruyff used to?
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His choices depend on the opponents. He's a flexible manager and he will adapt to circunstances.

Amorim likes to use interior wingers. Attacking players that attack the second balls, do diagonals and attract defenders so that wingbacks have the corridors next to the line for them. At the wings he needs intensity and physical capacity. They must be all integrated in attack and help out defending. With ball, you switch positions to create space. Without balls you pressure and soak up the passing lines.
 
P4rthen0n said:
I'm sure Amorim had a positive impact on Gyokeres in the 15 months they worked together, but he was ready as soon as he landed in Portugal to start playing for Sporting. He hit the ground running.


Take a look at his last season at Coventry. He had 21 goals (2nd) and 12 assists (1st) in a team that barely scored a goal a game.
Looking back at those numbers, he was already a star who hadn't been discovered yet.
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He absolutely was, he was the best player in the league that year. I have friends who are Boro fans so watched a bit of him that season and was very impressed. Followed his move to Sporting with interest ever since and he hasn't disappointed.
 
Rolaholic said:
United have always tried to hire ceiling raising coaches in recent times. Feels like this hire signals a diversion of approach. Amorim will be a floor raising coach and I think 90%+ of this squads current problems are quite basic and raising the floor of performances will take this team easily to top 4 or 5 level.

We can worry in 18 months time or so about raising the ceiling of the performances. Getting the basics right, getting a shape and a defined style that players know and is made simple will be the first steps in the interim. We can worry about the sexy/ game changing signings later.

The seemingly great thing about Amorim is that he’ll drag his team along and unify them. By all accounts, he's a terrific communicator and he makes his players jobs very, very simple. They will all have designated/specific zones to operate in and they’ll attack and defend in that same shape. It will be made super simple for them as opposed to whatever the hell they couldn't figure out for 20 months prior...

His patterns are easy to understand and simple to execute, it requires very little mental rigor outside of effort but if executed properly, work very well and becomes autonomous early on.

If this group of players buy into it early, we’ll see a big uptick in performances in short order.

It could take a little time happening mid-season and all, and it could get worse at first before it gets better during the bedding in period. That being said, I’m pretty confident that by Feb/March time, we’ll see far more of a conducive and clearly defined style than we ever saw under ETH. I think it will be very obvious what Amorim will be trying to do and I doubt that he'll be the type to shy away and abandon his principles.
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That's a good point, I think that LVG was a floor raising manager. Look at the team he had and what he did with it, it's a shame that we didn't have the DOF structure at the time because with better attacking talent things would have been very good but LVG and his transfer dealings have been notoriously diabolical, whether you look at Barcelona, Bayern or United.
 
Sly said:
His choices depend on the opponents. He's a flexible manager and he will adapt to circunstances.

Amorim likes to use interior wingers. Attacking players that attack the second balls, do diagonals and attract defenders so that wingbacks have the corridors next to the line for them. At the wings he needs intensity and physical capacity. They must be all integrated in attack and help out defending. With ball, you switch positions to create space. Without balls you pressure and soak up the passing lines.
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Thanks, that's encouraging, it seems that in theory he can make use of most of our attacking players.
 
Berbaclass said:
He absolutely was, he was the best player in the league that year. I have friends who are Boro fans so watched a bit of him that season and was very impressed. Followed his move to Sporting with interest ever since and he hasn't disappointed.
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Akpom was the player of the season that year and Gyokeres wasn't in the top 3 of the voting. Nathan Tella and Josh Brownhill ahead of him.
 
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