Roy Keane

[Classical Mechanic]

I agree 06-09 or so was Fergie's best side but if we're talking hair's breadths we have to acknowledge we were Terry slipping on his arse away from losing that 08 final. There's still a good debate to be had and I think it's quite a personal thing; a lot of it relies on what each individual fan has internalised over the years about those sides we all love.

Forget about emotion and subjectivity. I have more facts.

UEFA coefficients for the 98-01 side

The English League ranked in Europe by English teams performance

97/98 - 5th
98/99 - 4th
99/00 - 2nd
00/01 - 2nd
01/02 - 4th

05/06 - 3rd
06/07 - 2nd
07/08 - 1st
08/09 - 1st
09/10 - 1st

The Premier League was simply better and harder to win from 06/09

 

[12OunceEpilogue]

People hate Gary Neville for a lot less than this for things he says on Sky Sports. I wonder if this applies for Keane or if people have different standards.

I think the bottom line of the story of Keane's departure is mentioned in the video. Towards the end Keane had continued to speak his mind and cross lines as he had done throughout his 12 and a half years at United, but when you're no longer an essential part of the team your position is much more tenuous when you are involved in clashes of opinion/personality. Throw in Keane's ego, Fergie's ego and Carlos Queiroz into the mix and as Gary says something had to give after a month/six weeks of things bubbling away.

 

[SalfordRed18]

I agree 06-09 or so was Fergie's best side but if we're talking hair's breadths we have to acknowledge we were Terry slipping on his arse away from losing that 08 final. There's still a good debate to be had and I think it's quite a personal thing; a lot of it relies on what each individual fan has internalised over the years about those sides we all love.

Flip side I distinctly remember Sylvain Distan fouling Ronaldo in the box and the pen not given in the FA cup semi final.

Swings and roundabouts.

Personally I think the side from 06-11 were quite clearly stronger and better.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

So do we value Liverpool's second place and 97 points last season as being better than any of their title wins in the 70s/80s because it was achieved in a "clearly stronger league?"

No because the English League has never been stronger than it was when Liverpool had their golden era in the 70s & 80s.

Between 1977 & 1982 three English sides won the European Cup 7 out of 8 seasons.

This is all anecdotal anyway. People will say that this City team is the best in history. Well, you gotta do the big one then boys. Until they, or any other team win the treble, they will forever be behind 99 in my opinion.

Disagree with this too, if City win the CL and PL double this season I think they'll have a strong argument to claim to be the best PL side ever given all the records they'e broken. They have to win the CL. The FA is a minor detail in my opinion.

 

[Sir Scott McToMinay]

Flip side I distinctly remember Sylvain Distan fouling Ronaldo in the box and the pen not given in the FA cup semi final.

Swings and roundabouts.

Personally I think the side from 06-11 were quite clearly stronger and better.

Lets not put the 2006-2009 team together with the post Ronaldo team, two different sides in different stages of the cycle.

The 2009-2013 team was nowhere near as good as the treble team.

 

[12OunceEpilogue]

Forget about emotion and subjectivity. I have more facts.

UEFA coefficients for the 98-01 side

The English League ranked in Europe by English teams performance

97/98 - 5th
98/99 - 4th
99/00 - 2nd
00/01 - 2nd
01/02 - 4th

05/06 - 3rd
06/07 - 2nd
07/08 - 1st
08/09 - 1st
09/10 - 1st

The Premier League was simply better and harder to win from 06/09

Yeah I agree, I would just leave the door open for people to value that unprecedented treble-winning side above all other but I must concede it's a heart over head situation. You're talking about being as factual as possible and from that standpoint it's hard to argue against the 08 side being Fergie's best.

 

[Devil81]

I've never got people who think they are great because they tell it how it is.

Okay, fair enough your better being straight with people sometimes but other times you are better keeping your council and let things ride. Roy speaks far too much and that's what makes him an absolute arseh*le at times.

I know people who've had first hand experience of meeting him and he's just not a very nice fella. Fantastic footballer and my childhood hero but a bloody moody pig of a man on the quiet.

 

[12OunceEpilogue]

Flip side I distinctly remember Sylvain Distan fouling Ronaldo in the box and the pen not given in the FA cup semi final.

Swings and roundabouts.

Personally I think the side from 06-11 were quite clearly stronger and better.

Yeah that semi final was such a fecking pain. The image of Sulley Muntari stepping up to take the penalty is still seared into my mind.

 

[Jimmy_Bond]

No because the English League has never been stronger than it was when Liverpool had their golden era in the 70s & 80s.

Between 1977 & 1982 three English sides won the European Cup 7 out of 8 seasons.



Disagree with this too, if City win the CL and PL double this season I think they'll have a strong argument to claim to be the best PL side ever given all the records they'e broken. They have to win the CL. The FA is a minor detail in my opinion.

The FA Cup wasn't a minor detail in the 90's.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

The FA Cup wasn't a minor detail in the 90's.

Sure but I don't think City need a treble to make a claim to be the best PL side ever. Only United have ever won it 3 on the bounce. Last season the PL was clearly the best in Europe (first time all 4 finalists came from 1 country) so they can claim the level and they have broken so many records. They just need that CL.

Personally I loathe City more than Liverpool but if I am trying to be objective then that is how I see it.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Yeah I agree, I would just leave the door open for people to value that unprecedented treble-winning side above all other but I must concede it's a heart over head situation. You're talking about being as factual as possible and from that standpoint it's hard to argue against the 08 side being Fergie's best.

Totally agree. I have no problem with anyone loving the 94 or 99 team more, they were great sides and the 99 season was the most magical.

 

[VeevaVee]

No, I think it's a good example of SAF putting his own interests before that of the club, which is the point Keane is making. With the whole football world to recruit from, the very best man out there for Manchester United to hire as Chief Scout was Martin Ferguson? Really??
By all means help out the family if it's your own business, but you can't get away with it at someone else's expense whilst still claiming to be acting in the best interests of the employer.
It is a shame that Keane is still clearly seething about the way he was treated, and it might be better if he let the whole episode go now, but I find it hard to take issue with much that he says to be honest. Sir Alex was a great manager, but he was no paragaon of virtue.

But's it's barely a valid complaint considering. Maybe he wanted someone he can trust. It obviously worked out pretty well.

 

[Bubz27]

When did I say that I hate the caf?

Isn't it clear from the rest of my post why I assumed that?

 

[Jimmy_Bond]

Isn't it clear from the rest of my post why I assumed that?

Isn't clear by the fact that I take the time to post here and engage in other people here that I don't hate it?

 

[acnumber9]

And in Keane's first seven years we won more than in the period you refer to. What ever way you look at it, Keane was here for our most successful period, and was captain for what is widely regarded as the best team in our history.

It depends on what you consider success and the time period used. We won 5 league titles in each seven year period and focused on Europe more which led to not taking the FA Cup as seriously. I’d argue if Fergie had stayed five more years it would’ve been a more successful 12 year period. Semantics aside I engaged in this debate with somebody saying Keane leaving has led to where we are now. Which is complete bullshit.

 

[MyOnlySolskjaer]

Isn't it clear from the rest of my post why I assumed that?

Isn't clear by the fact that I take the time to post here and engage in other people here that I don't hate it?

Fight fight fight!

 

[Jimmy_Bond]

Sure but I don't think City need a treble to make a claim to be the best PL side ever. Only United have ever won it 3 on the bounce. Last season the PL was clearly the best in Europe (first time all 4 finalists came from 1 country) so they can claim the level and they have broken so many records. They just need that CL.

Personally I loathe City more than Liverpool but if I am trying to be objective then that is how I see it.

You make some good points and I'm not saying you're wrong.

In my opinion, if I had to make a team consisting of both squads then it'd be dominated by 99 players (I did this on the last page). Others would be dominated by 08. Personally I'm not too fussed about UEFA league rankings and what not, I think if you put the 99 team in any era they would be successful due to the nature of the personalities in the squad.

But, it's not a bad discussion to be having. We were lucky to see two great teams so close together. In my opinion the 08 one would have been even better with Keane in it.

 

[Jimmy_Bond]

It depends on what you consider success and the time period used. We won 5 league titles in each seven year period and focused on Europe more which led to not taking the FA Cup as seriously. I’d argue if Fergie had stayed five more years it would’ve been a more successful 12 year period. Semantics aside I engaged in this debate with somebody saying Keane leaving has led to where we are now. Which is complete bullshit.

I certainly won't be disagreeing with that.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

My biggest issue is the pop he takes at Walters for crying on TV. That’s just nasty and really uncalled for.

The stuff about his time at United doesn’t bother me at all. Him and Fergie are/were both incredibly stubborn/driven characters so the end of their relationship was always going to be full of recriminations. Their take no prisoners, feck the world mentality is a big part of our success but it’s no surprise they’re both experts at falling out with anyone they perceive as having crossed them. Two peas in a pod.

I do still love hearing Keane speak. He’s so unfiltered. It’s great. Would love him in our team right now too. Peak Roy Keane in central midfield this season would make me optimistic about winning the league.

 

[Rory 7]

My biggest issue is the pop he takes at Walters for crying on TV. That’s just nasty and really uncalled for.

The stuff about his time at United doesn’t bother me at all. Him and Fergie are/were both incredibly stubborn/driven characters so the end of their relationship was always going to be full of recriminations. Their take no prisoners, feck the world mentality is a big part of our success but it’s no surprise they’re both experts at falling out with anyone they perceive as having crossed them. Two peas in a pod.

I do still love hearing Keane speak. He’s so unfiltered. It’s great. Would love him in our team right now too. Peak Roy Keane in central midfield this season would make me optimistic about winning the league.

Agree with all of that.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

You make some good points and I'm not saying you're wrong.

In my opinion, if I had to make a team consisting of both squads then it'd be dominated by 99 players (I did this on the last page). Others would be dominated by 08. Personally I'm not too fussed about UEFA league rankings and what not, I think if you put the 99 team in any era they would be successful due to the nature of the personalities in the squad.

But, it's not a bad discussion to be having. We were lucky to see two great teams so close together. In my opinion the 08 one would have been even better with Keane in it.

I disagree with your team a bit. I'd have the the 06-09 entire back 5 only with Neville in instead of Brown. The rest I agree with.

 

[Rory 7]

Not sure how many of ye were at the testimonial but just did a bit of a search for his speech afterwards. Notable how he didn't mention SAF/Staff in that speech but from memory SAF thanks Keano. Personally I think SAF caused the feud to deepen with his second book. That book should have been re-titled 'settling scores', real Partridge stuff.

 

[dwd]

He can do no wrong amongst our Irish support which is expected but kind of funny at the same time.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Sure but I don't think City need a treble to make a claim to be the best PL side ever. Only United have ever won it 3 on the bounce. Last season the PL was clearly the best in Europe (first time all 4 finalists came from 1 country) so they can claim the level and they have broken so many records. They just need that CL.

Personally I loathe City more than Liverpool but if I am trying to be objective then that is how I see it.

I think the issue with assessing them now is that, by no fault of their own, their time at the peak of PL football has coincided with a general loss of quality from teams you would expect to be title rivals. The league at the moment reminds me a lot of the period of Wenger vs Fergie when I felt Arsenal and United were the only realistic possible PL champions for a few seasons. That's how I feel now with Liverpool and City.

United, Chelsea and Arsenal are a shadow of their former selves currently & Spurs cannot compete as, realistically, they simply don't have the funds. If you track the gap between 1st place and 4th place over the last decade it averages out around 17 points and has been steadily increasing despite having multiple winners. It also coincides with highly improbable events like Leicester being able to win the PL, Conte's Chelsea (who are never in the discussion for best PL team) setting a points record 1st season after finishing 10th. Despite money flowing into the league the overall standard in my mind of the bigger teams has decreased.

They can only beat what's put in front of them I guess but that CL win is paramount, despite what Pep says, it's like the certificate of authenticity when discussing the great teams of the past. I fear this season they will win it though.

 

[Irwin99]

Lets be blunt. We were playing dog shit at the time (Keane's admission in that infamous interview). Then Keane left, Carrick came and we won the league.

Not quite as simple as that and on a side note I'd take that United team (03-05) playing like dog shit over this one anytime. The Vidic, Evra signings improved us immeasurably although obviously they took a good 6 months to settle in.

The signing of Carrick was a great one but he didn't magically transform us into title challengers. He took quite awhile to settle as I remember and started to really find from mid-season onwards. It was the senior players together with Rooney and Ronaldo that transformed us that year. People forget just how good Scholes was that season in the deeper role and that he, Neville and Giggs were in some of the best form of their careers. The 06-07 season was just one of those season where everything just came right for us.

 

[DatIrishFella]

He can do no wrong amongst our Irish support which is expected but kind of funny at the same time.

Roy Keane is a gowl. Of the highest order. Hes a parody of himself at this stage.

 

[poleglass red]

I actually agree with a lot of what Roy says. Fergie was no choir boy in this whole mater, in fact I think a lot of it was caused by him. But come on, it's old news, move on Roy. Great player, great manager, but both stubborn and ruthless. While they might have been their strengths, it can also be a weakness.

 

[Raoul]

How can anyone not love Keane? I don’t care about his punditry or interviews in the present, just as I don’t care about Neville’s or Rio’s - but as a player he was the epitome of what made us great.

 

[Bubz27]

Isn't clear by the fact that I take the time to post here and engage in other people here that I don't hate it?

Not by the content of your posts, no it isn't.

All you seem to do is moan, then someone makes a point and you talk to that person as if they're below you and not really worth your time.

Anyways, you do you. Peace.

 

[Class of 63]

12.5 years at the highest level,

• Premier League: 1993–94, 1995–96, 1996–97, 1998–99, 1999–2000, 2000–01, 2002–03
• FA Cup: 1993–94, 1995–96, 1998–99, 2003–04
• FA Community Shield: 1993, 1996, 1997, 2003
• UEFA Champions League: 1998–99
• Intercontinental Cup: 1999

If that's only decent then damn, what's great?

He was alright like, better than run-of-the-mill, but let's be honest he was never more than a poor mans Bryan Robson.

 

[Mrs Smoker]

Yes.

I'm a huge supporter of necromancy though. He'll be back.

 

[Vidyoyo]

Of course he is. This is the era of social media lads, if I don't like an opinion I don't have to just ignore it, I can simply expunge the person from my world view.

 

[njred]

Had a few decent years as a footballer but he's an absolute knob of a man.

Decent? He was the last player I wanted to see in your teamsheet starting a match. He was a force. Was like Souness for us. Easily one of your best and always had the feeling he would never let you lose whatever it took.

 

[Jimmy_Bond]

Not by the content of your posts, no it isn't.

All you seem to do is moan, then someone makes a point and you talk to that person as if they're below you and not really worth your time.

Anyways, you do you. Peace.

The way you perceive a post might say more about you than it does me.

 

[Bubz27]

The way you perceive a post might say more about you than it does me.

You're so passive aggressive. Or maybe that's me, because that's how I'm perceiving you.

I really have to have some self reflection time man. I'm out of control.

 

[Sparky_Hughes]

I've never got people who think they are great because they tell it how it is.

Nor me, I don't consider that to be a good character trait, personally I find it shows someone has no tact and less self control.

 

[Charlie Foley]

Had a few decent years as a footballer but he's an absolute knob of a man.

"decent"

 

[Class of 63]

Decent? He was the last player I wanted to see in your teamsheet starting a match. He was a force. Was like Souness for us. Easily one of your best and always had the feeling he would never let you lose whatever it took.

That may well have be the case, but i'm struggling to think of one match(maybe his last)where he had a great game against yous lot, home or away, he always seemed to play within himself, maybe on instruction, who knows.

And on Souness, and now he's long retired i'm comfortable saying he was top gravy.

 

[Class of 63]

"decent"

Not sure what's so funny, on his better days he was.

 

[Sir Scott McToMinay]

That may well have be the case, but i'm struggling to think of one match(maybe his last)where he had a great game against yous lot, home or away, he always seemed to play within himself, maybe on instruction, who knows.

FA Cup final 1996.

What are you talking about playing within himself, he was a pass and move player, and a brilliant one at that, he was the definition of a team player.