Round of 16 | Switzerland vs Italy | Germany vs Denmark

[Acrobat7]

I don't even know why were talking about this.

A) The hand is quite quite far away from the body.
B) The arm is raised.
C) The ball didn't come out of nowhere, as a defender such a cross is all you think about.
D) UEFA's line of officiating has been very strict with these types of situations. Nearly every CL week we have people compaining about a harsh hand ball penalty.

Like here's a random scene from the same game. Andrich knows a cross/shot is coming, he knows the UEFA ruleset, so he does the penguin.

I am so confused why there is such a big discussion. Is it because Oliver was the ref or because it is Germany or because people are generally rooting for the underdog?

 

[Gilgamesh]

I will repeat what many have said, if that is the interpretation then a penalty is a disproportionately harsh punishment, and football needs to consider other options.

I disagree. For a simple reason: Using the hand is an absolute no-no in football for good reason. Simply because it is far too easy and happens too quickly to use the hand or arm in the game.

So, IMHO, there needs to be a no-go area for using the hand or arm. However, I think it would be sensible to introduce a smaller zone for this as the whole box. Would that be an idea? All you would need is another line on the pitch.

 

[Hester_manc]

I don't even know why were talking about this.

A) The hand is quite quite far away from the body.
B) The arm is raised.
C) The ball didn't come out of nowhere, as a defender such a cross is all you think about.
D) UEFA's line of officiating has been very strict with these types of situations. Nearly every CL week we have people compaining about a harsh hand ball penalty.

Like here's a random scene from the same game. Andrich knows a cross/shot is coming, he knows the UEFA ruleset, so he does the penguin.

This picture is useless in this discussion. It is not the same situation. Joachim Andersen was running with high speed and therefore using his arms. Andrich is moving, but not running.

 

[Gilgamesh]

You aren't wrong, I think the right decisions were made given the mandate laid out for the officials, but I also think if you go pre var the goal gets a couple of replays, people say level and we move on with no fuss while very few would be screaming pen for the handball.

Or maybe I am imagining a more sensible past that didn't exist, which is also likely.

An interesting hypothesis. One thing is certain: If Denmark had been leading 1-0, it would have been a completely different game. Would the game have been better? Maybe. Would the result have been fairer? I don't think so.

I think when your team is part of the equation, you see things more nuanced. But that's human nature.

 

[Lyricist]

Wenger wants away with them. That only full body offside would count. Hopefully comes to life

And then what.
You'll have the same issue at the new offside position depending on the camera angle. It would cause a drastically different game.

 

[RG77]

I am so confused why there is such a big discussion. Is it because Oliver was the ref or because it is Germany or because people are generally rooting for the underdog?

Prolly both.

 

[Gilgamesh]

I was a bit distracted by the discussion about the referee's performance...

Actually, I wanted to pay the Danes my respects for a really good game they played today. I think we are the deserved winners but I'm happy to admit that it could have turned out differently. The Danes were really strong.

If you had played like that earlier, you probably wouldn't have only finished second in your group. Thanks for the fair fight, it was an honor.

 

[Suedesi]

Suisse and Germany deservedly go through. Suisse will be really tough for England, should they go through.

 

[Fargo]

I think Schlotterbecks goal early was a proper goal and the handball was kind of a 50-50 situation. Personally I don't like these kind of penalties but if the refs are obliged to make these calls, well then it is a penalty.

The ref was quite bad overall, giving countless free kicks for no reason on both sides.

I think it was a good game from us. We were not always in control of the game but still created a lot of chances. Spain is better than Denmark obviously but they also give away more space. It could be an interesting match.

 

[P-Nut]

Clear daylight is clear daylight, that you can see daylight between the back of one player and the front of another player.

And what about when there's a millimetre between the daylight?

 

[Wilt]

One of these?

Yes they look warmed up and ready to plate

 

[simonhch]

I wouldn't call him generational, that seems to be a commentators favourite word at the moment, but you know if you give Musiala that kind of chance he will very likely put it in the net.

Absolutely.

I just object to the whole generational thing. It’s so overused. He’s a really good player with loads of potential yet to be realised. Not sure how good he’ll eventually be, but it will be fun to watch him get there.

 

[kouroux]

But...the ball hit the arm. What does common sense do differently here? If the rules say it's a pen, then it's a pen.

Common sense would make you not apply the rule strictly here. Kinda like when a police officer gives you a warnint instead of an automatic ticket.It doesn't happen often I know.
Common sense here would say that Andersen could do feck all about it. There was no need for a robotic application of the rule

 

[hasanejaz88]

I am so confused why there is such a big discussion. Is it because Oliver was the ref or because it is Germany or because people are generally rooting for the underdog?

It's the underdog aspect. If if was the other way and Germany on the receiving end no one would be complaining. It was as clear cut a case of a penalty as I've seen recently, hand well away from the body, ball strikes the hand clearly. That's also why no one is talking about the decision against Kimmich, if it were the other way around you'd hear people talking endlessly about it as well. People like the underdog to win, especially if they're against Germany.

It makes the Romero decision early this season look even worse.

 

[Lyricist]

The handball rule is shit, yes. But it was applied as it is always applied here.

Such tight offsides are shit. But in this case I must actually defend the rule. It's binary and it's fair and consistent for active offsides. It was applied as it is always applied here, both for the Denmark as well as for the Germany offside goal.

The Germamy goal he took away right at the start, he could've waited for VAR to intervene if it was a foul. Debatable whether VAR would've intervened. That one is debatable.

Why there was no retroactive yellow for a tactical foul on Sanè when Havertz and him were through, I have no idea.

Michael Oliver got many of the major calls right today. But it still caused the game to lack its natural flow. Both the referee decisions as well as the weather made it really cagey. Could have easily been 1-0 Germany after 3 minutes and it would've been a very different game.

The Danes did well but the better team went through.

 

[ROFLUTION]

The handball rule is shit, yes. But it was applied as it is always applied here.

Such tight offsides are shit. But in this case I must actually defend the rule. It's binary and it's fair and consistent for active offsides. It was applied as it is always applied here, both for the Denmark as well as for the Germany offside goal.

The Germamy goal he took away right at the start, he could've waited for VAR to intervene if it was a foul. Debatable whether VAR would've intervened. That one is debatable.

Why there was no retroactive yellow for a tactical foul on Sanè when Havertz and him were through, I have no idea.

Michael Oliver got many of the major calls right today. But it still caused the game to lack its natural flow. Both the referee decisions as well as the weather made it really cagey. Could have easily been 1-0 Germany after 3 minutes and it would've been a very different game.

The Danes did well but the better team went through.

Where? It’s not applied like that in majority of games I watch.

Joachim Andersen is out today saying the british FA 2 years ago assured clubs these type of handballs should never be given.

It does raise a lot of question of continuity and understanding of the rule, but maybe not for a german.

 

[Lyng]

It's the underdog aspect. If if was the other way and Germany on the receiving end no one would be complaining. It was as clear cut a case of a penalty as I've seen recently, hand well away from the body, ball strikes the hand clearly. That's also why no one is talking about the decision against Kimmich, if it were the other way around you'd hear people talking endlessly about it as well. People like the underdog to win, especially if they're against Germany.

It makes the Romero decision early this season look even worse.

Nah feck off with that nonsense. If it was the other way around you would have german media crying all day about it.

The decisions was correct. But its an idiotic rule. Andersen was trying to turn away and didnt get his hand away quick enough. Like Roy Keane said defenders have to move without arms nowadays.
They need to change the rules because they give attackers just hammering the ball in to a defender too great an advantage.
Its a stonewall pen from a stupid rule.

 

[do.ob]

Where? It’s not applied like that in majority of games I watch.

Joachim Andersen is out today saying the british FA 2 years ago assured clubs these type of handballs should never be given.

It does raise a lot of question of continuity and understanding of the rule, but maybe not for a german.

Many people don't know this, but it's actually not the FA who is responsible for the Euros, but UEFA. Easy mistake to make.

 

[Lyricist]

Where? It’s not applied like that in majority of games I watch.

Joachim Andersen is out today saying the british FA 2 years ago assured clubs these type of handballs should never be given.

It does raise a lot of question of continuity and understanding of the rule, but maybe not for a german.

Watch a Champions League match. These constantly get called these days. Not saying I agree with the rule. It's shit. But penalties keep being given for barely extended arms that are hit from short distances where the defender can do nothing about it. All of the upcoming 3 examples are from CL football and quite recent.

This one is after the full time whistle had already blown, game was brought back via VAR. It would've been a decisive penalty goal after matchday 6:


This one is on the trailing arm as the defender was turning away from the shot, much like Andersen yesterday:


Then there's this random one in the CL as well:

 

[Bobski]

Watch a Champions League match. These constantly get called these days. Not saying I agree with the rule. It's shit. But penalties keep being given for barely extended arms that are hit from short distances where the defender can do nothing about it. All of the upcoming 3 examples are from CL football and quite recent.

This one is after the full time whistle had already blown, game was brought back via VAR. It would've been a decisive penalty goal after matchday 6:


This one is on the trailing arm as the defender was turning away from the shot, much like Andersen yesterday:


Then there's this random one in the CL as well:

A really egregious example last season was the one Utd got in the CL away to Copenhagen, balls goes into the box Varane is holding the defenders left arm down, right arm rises to allow him to jump, still goes over his head, Maguire heads it down against his arm from a foot away, shown at 4:17 below.



The penalty against Utd was incredibly soft as well in that game. I really don't understand why this is the stance football is taking.

 

[Lyricist]

Nah feck off with that nonsense. If it was the other way around you would have german media crying all day about it.

The decisions was correct. But its an idiotic rule. Andersen was trying to turn away and didnt get his hand away quick enough. Like Roy Keane said defenders have to move without arms nowadays.
They need to change the rules because they give attackers just hammering the ball in to a defender too great an advantage.
Its a stonewall pen from a stupid rule.

It's definitely an idiotic rule and hurts the game the way it is implemented. But also as you said yourself the decisions were correct according to the rules as they are right now. It's very unlucky for Denmark and the handball rule needs to be changed.

On both German channels that were broadcasting this the pundits kept mentioning how harsh those 2 minutes with the miniature offside and the handball were and how much they'd be annoyed if that had happened the other way around. For the offside it makes sense, because the line has to be drawn somewhere. That's really unlucky. For the handball it's just a case of the current handball rule being absolutely shit and no one being able to come up with something that can prevent penalties for such bullshit situations.
I'm still in favor of indirect freekicks unless it's a dangerous shot on goal or clearly deliberate to block an attack. But at the same time that's just a very subjective definition as well.

That said, I again must point out, that the cancelled goal for Germany in the third minute was very soft and might not've been overturned had the ref left it to VAR. Also the situation where Sané gets tripped was extremely weird as the defender didn't even get a card. It's a yellow for a tactical foul in other areas of the pitch even if the ref plays advantage. But this one was with 2 players clear through on goal.

 

[Lyng]

It's definitely an idiotic rule and hurts the game it is implemented. But also as you said yourself the decisions were correct according to the rules as they are right now. It's very unlucky for Denmark and the handball rule needs to be changed.

On both German channels that were broadcasting this the pundits kept mentioning how harsh those 2 minutes with the miniature offside and the handball were and how much they'd be annoyed if that had happened the other way around. For the offside it makes sense, because the line has to be drawn somewhere. That's really unlucky. For the handball it's just a case of the current handball rule being absolutely shit and no one being able to come up with something that can prevent penalties for such bullshit situations.
I'm still in favor of indirect freekicks unless it's a dangerous shot on goal or clearly deliberate to block an attack. But at the same time that's just a very subjective definition as well.

That said, I again must point out, that the cancelled goal for Germany in the third minute was very soft and might not've been overturned had the ref left it to VAR. Also the situation where Sané gets tripped was extremely weird as the defender didn't even get a card. It's a yellow for a tactical foul in other areas of the pitch even if the ref plays advantage. But this one was with 2 players clear through on goal.

Yeah I think the first german goal should have stood.
But we have had these weird decisions this tourney. Still think Scotland got cheated out of a clear pen.

But as I said earlier in the thread, regardless of rules and VAR Germany was the better team and won deservedly.

 

[VorZakone]

Common sense would make you not apply the rule strictly here. Kinda like when a police officer gives you a warnint instead of an automatic ticket.It doesn't happen often I know.
Common sense here would say that Andersen could do feck all about it. There was no need for a robotic application of the rule

So what should Oliver have done? Let it go? He would probably be reprimanded by his superiors.

 

[do.ob]

The problem is that when you try to incorporate the "spirit of the game" into the handball rule you get a wild discrepancy in its application, to the point where you'll regularly get opposite calls for the same situation. So I can see where UEFA is coming from with their very strict interpretation.

And let's be honest here, his arm was raised and even moved towards the ball after the cross, so even with an "every ref does as he pleases" rule interpretation there could have been enough arguments for some refs to give a penalty if they felt like it.

 

[Lyng]

The problem is that when you try to incorporate the "spirit of the game" into the handball rule you get a wild discrepancy in its application, to the point where you'll regularly get opposite calls for the same situation. So I can see where UEFA is coming from with their very strict interpretation.

And let's be honest here, his arm was raised and even moved towards the ball after the cross, so even with an "every ref does as he pleases" rule interpretation there could have been enough arguments for some refs to give a penalty if they felt like it.

Well given the same ref didnt award a pen for the exact same position against Romero there is still a wild discrepancy in application from game to game.

 

[Maagge]

Look, I expected Denmark to get played off the park yesterday, with the only bit of optimism coming from us generally performing better against teams who want to play in their opponents half. That doesn't mean we always get results mind.

In the end we got a game that was way better than Switzerland - Italy with both teams getting good chances. And Germany probably deserved the win in the end.

What pisses me off is that like last time it feels like the referees decided the game. In 2021 it was Sterling chucking himself to the floor to deny us the chance to go out fairly on penalties. Or go through. Back then England deserved the win as well, but they hadn't put away their chances so we actually had a chance of going through. Until Sterling won the penalty.

This time we get denied a goal that probably wouldn't have been denied if football took stuff like how precise you can actually measure things into account. Then straight after Germany are given the penalty. And again it feels like we were denied the opportunity to go through or out fairly. Germany would probably have won in the end and deserved it, but we'll never know.

And people can feck off with the "it's the rules" bullshit. The rules are not laws of physics, they're made in a way to provide us with a fair and compelling competition. I don't see how the handball rule invoked yesterday does that (or the forensic analysis of offsides for that matter). If it's no longer a compelling game, we should change the rules and give the players and coaches their agency back.

 

[ROFLUTION]

Many people don't know this, but it's actually not the FA who is responsible for the Euros, but UEFA. Easy mistake to make.

Isn’t it an overall set of rules from the referees association that is followed and not a case of a certain set of rules for 1) UEFA and 2) England?

I could be wrong, but I thought it was IFAB or whatever it’s called.

 

[wildflower2007]

They need to do away with offsides like this. Someone’s toenail being offside is nonsense.

That is fekin ridiculous. It should never come down to margins like this.

It's literally getting to the point where a player might have to choose one boot over another, because Nike boots have an extra 1cm of plastic on the heel or toe, over an Adidas boot, for example. You can just see Kane sitting in the dressing room, trying to squeeze his size 10s into a size 8.

That's how brainfart stupid this whole VAR bollocks has become.

It's killing the game.

 

[do.ob]

Well given the same ref didnt award a pen for the exact same position against Romero there is still a wild discrepancy in application from game to game.

Well, see my earlier post:

Many people don't know this, but it's actually not the FA who is responsible for the Euros, but UEFA. Easy mistake to make.

Isn’t it an overall set of rules from the referees association that is followed and not a case of a certain set of rules for 1) UEFA and 2) England?

I could be wrong, but I thought it was IFAB or whatever it’s called.

Every call that isn't binary leaves room for interpretation, the hand ball rule most of all, so every refereeing realm has their own guidelines and conventions of how to interpret them.

 

[Lyng]

Well, see my earlier post:

Its IFAB rules no? Simply Oliver applying them differently.

 

[Jev]

It annoys me that these discussions always become so technical, about whether the rules were applied correctly, in theory.

The rules are the problem. The interpretation of the rules is the problem. The fact that these kinds of penalties are routinely given only makes it worse.

We have gotten to a point where football is refereed in a way that defies common sense and any football person’s understanding of the spirit of the game. And, as evidenced by the technical discussions that always arise with these nonsensical decisions, we’ve just gradually accepted it and been brainwashed by it. If you showed those two decisions to any football fan, player, manager or even referee in the 90’s, they’d laugh and state the obvious: The game has completely, utterly lost the plot.

 

[do.ob]

Its IFAB rules no? Simply Oliver applying them differently.

It's UEFA telling refs to be extremely strict against the defenders in hand ball situations, when officiating in their competitions.

 

[Lyng]

It's UEFA telling refs to be extremely strict against the defenders in hand ball situations, when officiating in their competitions.

Ah okay, yeah I get your point now.

That doesnt really change my point though? That we have a wild inconsistency in football now due to rules being interpret by the milimeter rather than common sense. Scotland not receiving a penalty is a good example.

By the rules the calls yesterday where all correct. But the rules have ended up at a point now where they make no sense to people who actually play the game.
@Pogue Mahone made an excellent point about the whole idea of a arm in a natural position, has now lead to a point where defenders have to keep their arms in the most unnatural position imaginable.

Either way. The win was fully deserved and good luck in the rest of the tournament.

 

[Schmeichels pinky]

Germany deserved the win as already stated. That’s out of the way.

The handball would’ve been given in the first VAR season here, but not since. It’s ridiculous that UEFA isn’t up to speed with the leagues and that Oliver hasn’t got the courage to use bloody common sense and go against VAR here. Andersen is running and can’t put his arms behind his back there, the ball comes from short distance. Never ever a pen. Thought we all agreed upon that by now.

 

[Jev]

Either way. The win was fully deserved and good luck in the rest of the tournament.

Was it, though? They battered us for 15 minutes. After that I think we were slightly better until the VAR farce. Anything that happens after that, not just in that particular match but in this tournament and in football in general, is, to me, irrelevant.

 

[do.ob]

Ah okay, yeah I get your point now.

That doesnt really change my point though? That we have a wild inconsistency in football now due to rules being interpret by the milimeter rather than common sense. Scotland not receiving a penalty is a good example.

By the rules the calls yesterday where all correct. But the rules have ended up at a point now where they make no sense to people who actually play the game.
@Pogue Mahone made an excellent point about the whole idea of a arm in a natural position, has now lead to a point where defenders have to keep their arms in the most unnatural position imaginable.

Either way. The win was fully deserved and good luck in the rest of the tournament.

This is such an insane statement. UEFA's guidelines make this penalty pretty much a factual call. That's the opposite of inconsistency. What you're asking for would result in one ref giving a pen, because he judges it unintentional, antoher giving a penalty, because the arm was too far out. Then sometimes you'd have a VAR support that call, but sometimes the VAR would say "well actually it was intentional, because if you look at it in slow motion you see the hand moving towards the ball". And all of them, completely opposite assessments, would have been perfectly right.

 

[Lyng]

This is such an insane statement. UEFA's guidelines make this penalty pretty much a factual call. That's the opposite of inconsistency. What you're asking for would result in one ref giving a pen, because he judges it unintentional, antoher giving a penalty, because the arm was too far out. Then sometimes you'd have a VAR support that call, but sometimes the VAR would say "well actually it was intentional, because if you look at it in slow motion you see the hand moving towards the ball". And all of them would have been perfectly right.

I am not talking about intent. But blasting the ball at the defenders hands from less than a meter away, especially when the player is in movement is a judgement call. We have seen so many times where this is not given, case in point Romero.
So the idea that its all based on factual calls has no basis in reality. On paper what you say is true, but its just not what happens in reality.

 

[do.ob]

I am not talking about intent. But blasting the ball at the defenders hands from less than a meter away, especially when the player is in movement is a judgement call. We have seen so many times where this is not given, case in point Romero.
So the idea that its all based on factual calls has no basis in reality. On paper what you say is true, but its just not what happens in reality.

Which Romero situation are you talking about?

 

[Lyng]

Which Romero situation are you talking about?

Now you will probably say, that was in the Premier League and not the euros, even if it was the same ref.
And that is true and if we have no incident for the rest of the this euros where the handball rules is interpret differently by the ref then I will admit I was wrong and the calls where all done based on facts.
I just dont think that will be the case, but we will see.

 

[Lyricist]

By the way, the Wirtz offside goal was insanely tight as well, even if they didn't show the lines:

For the long ball from Neuer Füllkrug is definitely onside as he's played on by the two wide defensive players:


For the pass from Füllkrug to Wirtz it looks incredibly tight, but might also be just a fraction (notice that the Danish player is actually in the air slightly on this, so his position is actually still a tiny bit further down than it looks from this angle).