Also Brehme and Stoickhov faced each other four times, Stoichov only scored when Brehme was past his peak at Zaragoza.
Roulette Draft final: MJJ vs 2mufc0
- Thread starter harms
- Start date
Also Brehme and Stoickhov faced each other four times, Stoichov only scored when Brehme was past his peak at Zaragoza.
Agree, but at the same time not one person has provided me with a source that Monti was slow.
The onus should be on you to prove he is not mate consideribg pacy DMs is a rare entity on itself.
Not that I expect my DMs to be pacy as I said before.
I'm not saying he needs to be pacy in terms of top speed or on big distances, but agile, good acceleration off the mark, able to cover ground if he's beaten for the first step, etc..
MJJ's defense is fecking nuts. It's hard to see of how any other team could score there. 2mufc0 has a lot more flair and would be exciting to watch though. It's one of that team that might unlock any defense.
Tuppet could/should have the final say on this.
Tuppet could/should have the final say on this.
Coming to the game in itself, althought I understand the rationale behind mufc's setup, it doesnt have the usual immediately makes you think it will click. Need to picture it a bit more.
Mjj's setup is pretty simple of course, but again not easy to picture how it would work against the central overload in midfield and defense.
Great match setup with a lot of discussion points in this final though considering we end up having the usual template formations/games.
Will check in later to read more of the discussion. Good luck both.
Mjj's setup is pretty simple of course, but again not easy to picture how it would work against the central overload in midfield and defense.
Great match setup with a lot of discussion points in this final though considering we end up having the usual template formations/games.
Will check in later to read more of the discussion. Good luck both.
Why I would win
- Far more clinical attack
- A far better defense with no relative weaknesses like Campbell. 2mufc0 team also seems to be operating on the wrong side, with monti going where van hanegem is and krol playing on the right side despite the teamsheet.
- Better Goalkeeper
- Equal Midfield.
I dont think dedicated DM's need to be able to cover ground very quickly when beaten. They will be usually pretty deep with or without the ball with another layer of defense behind them.
Defensive B2B's, yes that would be a good trait for them to have considering if beaten, there is space and time for the opposition between the midfied and defense
Campbell is on Batistuta and has a very good record against him.
Nope i don't think he has blistering pace, but i don't believe he was a heavy lumbering player either. Plus it's the positional awareness that matters most in this position and Monti was great at that.
They played twice, I am not sure the sample size is large enough for you to say he has a very good record against him. Can you also update your opening teamsheet to represent campbell the LCB and monti being a RCM? Since that appears to be how the two are playing.
Probably one of the more interesting finals in recent memory. Kudos to both managers.
I tried looking but couldn't find a breakdown of stats
only total goals.I would agree with you if there was a more dynamic b2b next to him. But with van Hanegem covering that space it results in having two fairly static midfielders against the more dynamic Baggio and Kopa.
Matic and Kante for example will work, Matic and Carrick IMO not.
I disagree that Van Hanegem was static, maybe lacked top level pace but he moved around the pitch well, whether it be back defending or running into the box, this video is a good example of this:
As you can see he's operating deep, middle and even in the opposition box at times.
Don't get me wrong he's a great player and fantastic passer of the ball, who also stuck into challenges. However, his movement (from the video above as well) was always a bit languid and wouldn't trust him a covering job when Monti is beaten by either Kopa or Baggio.
One team is build around a watertight defence and operating on counters, whilst the others on quick transitions and most often than not being on the backfoot when you lose the ball in the opposition half.
If the roles were reversed and you had Monti as anchor in 5-3-2, things are obviously different, but from what I imagine of the game Monti and van Hanegem would be further up the pitch, hence creating more voids in the middle of the park.
I tried looking but couldn't find a breakdown of stats
Your only other chance is worldfootball.netIt's a lost cause. I've already tried several sites to find Rivelino's stats but to no avail
It's a lost cause. I've already tried several sites to find Rivelino's stats but to no avail
Not voting as of now but tilting towards MJJ.
For me Sol Campbell doesnt belong in a all time final.
I know most people disagree with me on this but I dont rate Krol at CB in the absolute highest tier of CBs.
Its definitely very tight but MJJ's defence gives you that reassurance that in a tight game, they will hold their fort much better.
With a stellar defence like that, you'd expect the attack to be slightly lesser better than the opponent's but Kopa, Baggio and Batistuta is as clean and precise as it gets.
Heck, am going with MJJ.
Lots of love for mufc's earlier theme and team but he for me did the same mistake most drafters make. Dropping Bergkamp in the latter stages. This setup was tailor made for him from the start. I am not of the opinion that the current setup is not very good, but I dont feel the oomph for sure. Campbell should have been upgraded instead of dropping Bergkamp.
Sorry MJJ, cant keep up to the word of not voting for you. Promise to not vote for you in the next 3 drafts.
For me Sol Campbell doesnt belong in a all time final.
I know most people disagree with me on this but I dont rate Krol at CB in the absolute highest tier of CBs.
Its definitely very tight but MJJ's defence gives you that reassurance that in a tight game, they will hold their fort much better.
With a stellar defence like that, you'd expect the attack to be slightly lesser better than the opponent's but Kopa, Baggio and Batistuta is as clean and precise as it gets.
Heck, am going with MJJ.
Lots of love for mufc's earlier theme and team but he for me did the same mistake most drafters make. Dropping Bergkamp in the latter stages. This setup was tailor made for him from the start. I am not of the opinion that the current setup is not very good, but I dont feel the oomph for sure. Campbell should have been upgraded instead of dropping Bergkamp.
Sorry MJJ, cant keep up to the word of not voting for you. Promise to not vote for you in the next 3 drafts.
Last edited:
On the fence here. The only thing I don't like about 2mufc0 team is that midfield base. Apart from that it's a great team. I like the synergy between Jairzinho and Stoichkov up front whilst Gullit charges from behind.
Went for MJJ. Really like the look of his defence, and I can see his wingbacks pulling 2mufc0's defensive midfielders out wide, leaving space for Kopa and Baggio to do some damage. Not sure about Krol paired in a back two with Campbell.
Both great teams though!
Both great teams though!
Nope that won't happen as my full backs will be watching his wingbacks.
Normally I would agree about Campbell but 1) this isn't a proper unrestricted all time pool 2) Campbell has a real life proven record against Batigol and has faired well against him.
And to be honest I was a bit screwed by the rolls and couldn't reinforce like I wanted, the last 3 rolls were all chain (1 roll was by Tuppet, so he's still screwing with the draft even though he's been banned) which restricted me to all Brazilian chain.
Vote for attacking football, draft innovation, personality, style and swagger instead of the everyday 5-3-2 we see every draft - it is soulless and bland.
Although it's true that Campbell is a bit underwhelming on Final, but one thing I learned from Barca's setup, defense isn't that important if you can dominate and finish off the game.
In newbie forum perhaps?
Be careful, mate. He might be back. With vengeance and more force. Be afraid!
In newbie forum perhaps? Be careful, mate. He might be back. With vengeance and more force. Be afraid!
how has the move to a sub-forum gone.. are we still attracting big votes/new people or is it too excluded to generate mass participation?
The voter turnout has dropped.
Well that is possibly just a consequence of Tuppetgate lulz
That too
They played twice, brrhme has a much better record against Stoichkov. Kept twice three times before Stoichkov scored when he was at zaragoza.
Secondly, you have two attackers against my four defenders . You woild need ronaldo level stars to make it work ehich I don't think you have.
How often has jairzinho played as a striker btw?
Vote for attacking football, draft innovation, personality, style and swagger instead of the everyday 5-3-2 we see every draft - it is soulless and bland.
Doesn't get more stylish and more zeagger than Baggio, vote for the divine ponytail.
What about the beauty and the beast combo of baggio and batistuta with the dribbling and playmaking of kopa behind them?
2mufc0's tactics are a bit wonky too with krol at RCB, campbell at LCB and monti following kopa down the inside right channel where van hangemen is.
I think one thing which hasnt been mentioned a lot has been my midfield due of Tigana(Ballon D'or Runner up in 1984) and Voronin. Tigana has the required quality to stifle rivelino while bursting past the less mobile midfield of 2mufc0 to support kopa,baggio in attack.
Jean Tigana, irreplaceable!
A legend among Girondins legends
In the football world, Jean Tigana is still a benchmark, more than a quarter of a century after hanging his boots. Why? Because this midfielder, despite what appeared to be an "average" physique – some would even say "diminutive" – was blessed with an exceptional talent. Tigana was able to cover miles and miles on the pitch, but there was more to his game than that…
A true footballing athlete, Tigana's elite capacities were already on show in the early days of his professional career, which started at second-division S.C. Toulon in 1975. It wasn't long before France's top clubs came calling for the young midfielder with the steely temperament, and the ability to score goals too. He finally made his top flight debut in 1978 with Olympique Lyonnais, under the watchful eye of coach Aimé Jacquet…
A peerless performer
Over the course of his three seasons in Lyon, Tigana demonstrated an incredible reliability (he played in almost every league game), a taste for scoring goals – testament to his capacity to surge forward – and earned a reputation as a supremely dependable midfield stalwart. In 1981 "Jeannot" once again joined forces with Aimé Jacquet, who had taken over as manager at the Girondins de Bordeaux one year earlier. After a highly successful spell in the Rhône, it was time for Tigana to shine in the Gironde! Recently called up to the French national squad for the first time by Michel Hidalgo, Tigana was fast becoming one of the finest players in the league, and indeed the continent...
His coaches trusted him implicitly. He entertained, he enthused, he was unstoppable. This indefatigable, technically-gifted midfielder chose to put an end to his contract and set off for a new adventure in Bordeaux. The transfer fee was huge for those days: 210 million cents! But he was worth every penny, and Claude Bez put Tigana at the heart of his plans alongside Dragan Pantelić (goalkeeper) and Nordine Kourichi (another international), soon joined by Mario Relmy and Antoine Martinez, a creative young midfielder with a bright future ahead.
Tigana the tireless
Lively, elegant and ruthlessly efficient, Tigana was also endowed with a remarkable technical facility and the capacity to constantly win back the ball. Born in Bamako (Mali), his early years in France were spent in Marseille. But it was at Bordeaux's Parc Lescure that this talent truly reached its peak. His team spirit, his efficient short passes, his sudden bursts of pace and his rare athletic abilities combined to make up for any potential shortcomings in his game, and Tigana was a precious addition to a team already stuffed with international talent. Thouvenel, Rohr, Bracci, Trésor, Girard, Giresse, Lacombe, Gemmrich and Soler all helped him to grow as a player, taking his performance to the next level. And vice versa. Because without Jean Tigana, this Bordeaux team just wouldn't have been the same.
"At the start he used to win back loads of balls, but sometimes he was in a bit of a rush and he ended up losing some of them straight away," recalls Marius Trésor. "But he just kept working and working, and he became much more precise with his passes. He was absolutely tireless, what you'd call a 'box to box' midfielder these days. He could be absolutely immense in attack, but then he'd still be there when it was time to defend. He looked tiny, but on the pitch he just kept on giving..."
Championship, Euro, Tigana wins the lot!
The good results kept on coming and Bordeaux became more and more dominant. They carried on up the league, right the way to the top: the Girondins were crowned French champions in 1983-1984, and Tigana was owed much of the credit. This was a huge moment for Bordeaux, the last time they'd won the league was in the Swiatek era, back in 1950! Tigana's talent also shone brightly on the European stage, first in the UEFA Cup (C3), then in the European Cup (C1) in 1984-1985. That year, Tigana truly showed his colours as an exceptional footballing talent. From victory over Athletic Bilbao (a game he missed), to a semi-final against his friend Platini's Juventus, Tigana was one of the driving forces behind the Girondins' epic European adventure, falling at the penultimate hurdle. During Euro 1984, which was held in France, Tigana surpassed himself again as he helped France to victory. Voted one of the players of the tournament, he exorcised the memories of the Bleus' defeat to West Germany in the World Cup semi-final two years previously (Spain 1982). Better still, at the end of the year he came within a whisker of winning the Ballon d’Or! In fact he was runner-up for European player of the year (just behind Michel Platini)…
Tigana was a central component of the imperious Bordeaux side of the mid-1980s, steamrolling terrified youngsters and seasoned veterans alike. From his position in the heart of midfield, Jean Tigana delivered priceless passes for Giresse, Lacombe, Zénier, (Dieter) Müller, Chalana and Reinders, as well as the next generation of attacking talent to pass through the Girondins' ranks: Allen, Bijotat, Cantona, Dugarry, Fargeon, Ferreri, Genghini, Scifo, Stopyra, Olsen, (Marc) Pascal, Touré, Vercruysse and (Zlatko) Vujović all benefited from Tigana's famous pass rate. He also continued to serve as an invaluable bridge between midfield and defence, dropping back to help (Christian) Delachet, (Raymond) Domenech, Dropsy, Battiston, Lizarazu, (Alain) Roche, (Didier) Sénac, Specht, Tusseau and (Zoran) Vujović. Tigana was simply IRREPLACEABLE!
The stuff of legend
Three French championships (1984, 1985 and 1987), two French Cups (1986 and 1987) and two European Cup semi-finals in 1985 and 1987 (Lokomotive Leipzig in the Cup Winners' Cup): Tigana's time at Bordeaux yielded a serious haul of silverware. A remarkable string of achievements, and a love affair with the club which lasted for eight successful seasons; notwithstanding a few clashes with the Girondins' legendary, moustachioed president, who was always wary of the "whims" of his players...
Jean Tigana was an intelligent, dependable and formidable presence in the Bordeaux midfield, an athlete whose work rate and professionalism demanded respect, and a player whose successes with the club brought joy to the stadium and the whole city (as did his sing-song accent and infectious laugh). He made 324 appearances for the Girondins, and scored 14 goals. Despite numerous offers from the top European clubs, Tigana stayed with Bordeaux until 1989, when Bernard Tapie's Olympique de Marseille gave him a chance to end his career on another high note (1989-1991). He won two more titles with OM, as well as narrowly missing out on the European Cup (Marseille lost to Red Star Belgrade F.K. on penalties in the final, Tigana came on as a substitute). In 1991 Marseille also narrowly missed out on the Coupe de France, losing to Monaco in the final (1-0)!
Despite major successes as a manager (Olympique Lyonnais, A.S. Monaco, Fulham F.C., Beşiktaş J.K., then Shanghai Shenhua after leaving Bordeaux), Tigana left a sense of unfinished business from his time as head coach of the Girondins, resigning before the end of the 2010-2011 season. As he put it, the circumstances did not allow him to fully honour his commitment to the club. All differences aside, Jean Tigana will forever remain a club legend.
The Soviets had been meticulous in their preparation and assigned Voronin to nullify the threat of the expansive Albert.
In midfield, Yozhef Sabo, who ironically was Hungarian by birth, dominated the midfield. After just six minutes, the Magyar goalkeeper József Gelei dropped a cross at the feet of Chislenko who opened the scoring. Things became worse for Hungary two minutes after the interval as a free-kick from Galimzyan Khusainov flicked off the head of a Hungarian defender and the unmarked Porkujan was able to tap the ball in at the far post.
The Magyars eventually roused themselves and started to display their footballing skills, with Bene scoring on 57 minutes. The Hungarians pushed for an equaliser but the Soviet rearguard held firm thanks to a brilliant save from Yashin towards the end. While Soviet captain Albert Shesternev played an outstanding game as the libero at the back, the key to victory had been the performance of Voronin, who nullified the enormous threat of Albert.
The Semis
Strong arm tactics came to the fore and the Russians suffered as a consequence. After just 10 minutes, in trying to challenge Franz Beckenbauer, Soviet playmaker Sabo twisted his ankle leaving him a limping passenger for the remainder of the game.
As half-time approached in this niggly war of attrition, Chislenko was left hobbling after a tackle from Karl-Heinz Schellinger that the Italian referee, Concerto Lo Bello, failed to penalise. Schellinger subsequently swept the ball out to Helmut Haller who hammered it into the net.
Straight from the kick-off, Chislenko, still incensed by the non-award of a free-kick, lost out to Siggi Held in a tackle and responded by kicking his opponent on the ankle. Held collapsed on the pitch, strangely clutching his knee and rolled around in apparent agony in front of the match official. Chislenko was instantly dismissed, becoming the fourth player to be sent off playing against the Germans.
With the injury to Sabo, the USSR were effectively reduced to nine men yet managed to stay in the game due to the excellent Voronin and a number of brilliant saves from Yashin. However, after 67 minutes, Beckenbauer curled in a left-foot shot from the edge of the box which swerved dramatically at the last minute to deceive a motionless Yashin, who appeared to assume that it was going wide. Game over.
Or so it seemed – but even with effectively nine players, the USSR were not about to surrender. Urged on by the home support, with Voronin and Kususainov pushing the team forward, with two minutes remaining, Porkujan pounced on a mistake by German goalkeeper Hans Tilkowski to score his fourth goal in three appearances. A minute later, a precisely delivered cross from Anatoly Banishkesky was met by the leap of Porkujan but the ball sailed just over the bar and the game was over.
In midfield, Yozhef Sabo, who ironically was Hungarian by birth, dominated the midfield. After just six minutes, the Magyar goalkeeper József Gelei dropped a cross at the feet of Chislenko who opened the scoring. Things became worse for Hungary two minutes after the interval as a free-kick from Galimzyan Khusainov flicked off the head of a Hungarian defender and the unmarked Porkujan was able to tap the ball in at the far post.
The Magyars eventually roused themselves and started to display their footballing skills, with Bene scoring on 57 minutes. The Hungarians pushed for an equaliser but the Soviet rearguard held firm thanks to a brilliant save from Yashin towards the end. While Soviet captain Albert Shesternev played an outstanding game as the libero at the back, the key to victory had been the performance of Voronin, who nullified the enormous threat of Albert.
The Semis
Strong arm tactics came to the fore and the Russians suffered as a consequence. After just 10 minutes, in trying to challenge Franz Beckenbauer, Soviet playmaker Sabo twisted his ankle leaving him a limping passenger for the remainder of the game.
As half-time approached in this niggly war of attrition, Chislenko was left hobbling after a tackle from Karl-Heinz Schellinger that the Italian referee, Concerto Lo Bello, failed to penalise. Schellinger subsequently swept the ball out to Helmut Haller who hammered it into the net.
Straight from the kick-off, Chislenko, still incensed by the non-award of a free-kick, lost out to Siggi Held in a tackle and responded by kicking his opponent on the ankle. Held collapsed on the pitch, strangely clutching his knee and rolled around in apparent agony in front of the match official. Chislenko was instantly dismissed, becoming the fourth player to be sent off playing against the Germans.
With the injury to Sabo, the USSR were effectively reduced to nine men yet managed to stay in the game due to the excellent Voronin and a number of brilliant saves from Yashin. However, after 67 minutes, Beckenbauer curled in a left-foot shot from the edge of the box which swerved dramatically at the last minute to deceive a motionless Yashin, who appeared to assume that it was going wide. Game over.
Or so it seemed – but even with effectively nine players, the USSR were not about to surrender. Urged on by the home support, with Voronin and Kususainov pushing the team forward, with two minutes remaining, Porkujan pounced on a mistake by German goalkeeper Hans Tilkowski to score his fourth goal in three appearances. A minute later, a precisely delivered cross from Anatoly Banishkesky was met by the leap of Porkujan but the ball sailed just over the bar and the game was over.
Just finished man-marking one of the players of the tournaments in Florian Albert and playing against the likes of Beckenbauer-Overath-Seeler-Haller? Well up you go against freaking Eusebio, in his 1966 WC form, next then.
(Video quality at the start is poor but I just used those excerpts for the English commentary by Wolstenholme, iirc.
The actual compilation quality is much better, so stick with it.)
We've seen man-marking displays from the likes of Bergomi, Gentile, Stiles and other more 'rugged' players but it's hard to think of more pure and 'clean' man-marking displays than those displayed by Voronin against Albert and Eusebio. Quite something, being the most creative talisman of your side and also simultaneously being the most formidable man-marking presence. If one really wants to appreciate those displays, it'd be better if they watch those matches in full as there were a lot of positional plays (putting pressure in the right areas, preventing Albert/Eusebio from turning and forcing them into simple back passes etc) that I couldn't put inside the video. Far too often we've had the debate about who'd be the ideal holding midfielder (not named Rijkaard) who would be ideally suited to upgrade Busquets in the tiki-taka system or any other system which demands a ball-playing yet defensive resolute and positionally disciplined DM, Voronin has to be amongst the top of the pile imo
Naturally, Voronin would end up being voted into the Best XI of the 1966 WC by the Associated Press (strangely not in the official TOTM, although he made it in the 1962 WC)
Banks; D. Santos, Schulz, Moore, Marzolini; Beckenbauer, Charlton, Voronin; Bene, Eusebio, Simoes
whilst the British pundit team with Don Revie and Billy Wright had this as all star team for this WC:
Banks; Sanchis, Schulz, Moore, Marzolini; Beckenbauer, Charlton; Voronin, Bene, Pelé, Eusebio
A referendum organized by L'Equipe and France Football regarding the best player of the tournament gave the following result:
1- Bobby Charlton ----- 17 votes
2- Franz Beckenbauer - 8 votes
3- Eusébio -------------- 7 votes
4- Valery Voronin ----- 4 votes
So while 2mufc0 midfield square is good, I have a balon d'or runner up and a man who man-marked albert,eusebio out of the game while being one of the main playmaker of his sides and went toe to two with nine men against a beckenbauer-overath-seeler-haller german side.
Who better to mark gullit out of the game while still providing attacking support.
Who better to mark gullit out of the game while still providing attacking support.
Absolutely love it by the way, especially with Kopa as a 10.