Ross Barkley

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Is he better then Cleverley, Ravel and Pogba though?
 
Saw him against the u21s and he looked class. I had the same feeling I had when I first saw Wilshere play - he has a natural ability to play the ball and the confidence to try extravagant passes and shots. Must be a strange feeling for Everton fans, as this lad is clearly quite special but it's very unlikely he'll stay for long given their financial woes.
 
Mad said:
I trust you're not aware of the financial strife that Everton find themselves in?[/QUOTE

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Everton are in no position to refuse a decent price for a player, if Rooney was still there, we probably could have got him for 10-12 million less.
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CallyRed said:
Mad said:
I trust you're not aware of the financial strife that Everton find themselves in?[/QUOTE

This

Everton are in no position to refuse a decent price for a player, if Rooney was still there, we probably could have got him for 10-12 million less.
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You don't think Chelsea and/or City would drive the price through the roof now?

He was a steal at £26m, no complaints here.
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CallyRed said:
Mad said:
I trust you're not aware of the financial strife that Everton find themselves in?[/QUOTE

This

Everton are in no position to refuse a decent price for a player, if Rooney was still there, we probably could have got him for 10-12 million less.
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I couldn't disagree more. I think now he would cost a hell of a-lot more. The market has gone pretty crazy and look at the sums that have been forked out on English youngsters recently.
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For all this talk about blocking the development of Pogba, Morrison etc, you should remember that in two years we are unlike to still have Giggs, Gibson and maybe Carrick.
 
Obviously the reason they didnt sell him was because they want to show what he can do first so they can get maximum market value. Selling Arteta will surely ease the burden they have of needing to sell players. If he turns out to be what he is cracked up to be then signing him will not be straight forward at all and would he offer more than Tunnicliffe and Pogba anways?
 
MPTutd said:
For all this talk about blocking the development of Pogba, Morrison etc, you should remember that in two years we are unlike to still have Giggs, Gibson and maybe Carrick.
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And also that these players may never make the breakthrough.

Over the years there have been various "gems" who havent lived up to their reputations or developed into first team players. It is never guaranteed, regardless of how you play in the youth team or reserves - one major factor being the pressure you're under the the United first team even in comparison to other sides.
 
Also, it is the only way we can combat the likes of City, who simply throw money at anything high valued
 
MPTutd said:
For all this talk about blocking the development of Pogba, Morrison etc, you should remember that in two years we are unlike to still have Giggs, Gibson and maybe Carrick.
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We're probably banking on this in order that we are able to accomodate Morrison, Cleverley, Pogba, Petrucci, Tunnicliffe, Anderson et al.

I'd say at least 3 of these (and that's very pessimistic given that Anderson and Cleverley are already first teamers) will be top notch. Barkley looks excellent, but there's no doubt that it'd be a bit of a cramped midfield, and would also hinder the chances of others.

I'm already wondering as to how we are actually going to introduce Pogba and Morrison, who surely cannot be kept on a leash for much longer. I'm sure Fergie will sort something out, but it's going to be incredibly difficult to fit all these talented youngsters into a single squad. I wouldn't be surprised if a couple of our youngsters moved on at some point in the future and made a fantastic career for themselves elsewhere (a Rossi/Pique type situation).
 
He's played one full premier league game, let's save some judgement until half way through the season at least.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Or Brady and Petrucci?
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The sad thing is they're not even joking....

Now that's not to dismiss Barkley...but people need to engage their brain somewhat....I don't understand people. We have talent, it's harder to break into our squad let a lone team. What makes them think they're better then what we have? Even if they're sensational for Evertons first team, it don't mean they will come to United and perform anything like that. At least our kids are ingrained in what the clubs about...
 
MPTutd said:
For all this talk about blocking the development of Pogba, Morrison etc, you should remember that in two years we are unlike to still have Giggs, Gibson and maybe Carrick.
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True but it depends how players are filtered through to the squad. We have a batch of players, not just the ones mentioned so who knows how things will develop
 
Striker10 said:
The sad thing is they're not even joking....

Now that's not to dismiss Barkley...but people need to engage their brain somewhat....I don't understand people. We have talent, it's harder to break into our squad let a lone team. What makes them think they're better then what we have? Even if they're sensational for Evertons first team, it don't mean they will come to United and perform anything like that. At least our kids are ingrained in what the clubs about...
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Clearly that's a judgment for those at the club.

If they bring in a player clearly they think he's potentially worth a place in the first team at some stage, or why would they bother?

You can't not look at emerging talents because you have lads in the youth team who might make the grade.

Certain youth teams players are bandied about on here as if they're already established stars with bright futures guaranteed when its clearly not the case. A few may make the grade but in recent years its been rare that youth team players have been any more that squad players, regardless of reputations built in the youth team or reserves - the step up is enormous.

The scouts and ultimately the manager with decide if a potential recruit has the personality and skill set to add something to the team, and while the standard of players coming through will influence any decisions I doubt it'll be the decisive factor.

In terms of this kid - if he comes into a PL team at 17 and performs there's a giood chance he'll do well at United, surrounded by even better players. I cant see that it makes much difference where he's played before.
 
I can't understand why Barkley's an emerging talent but Pogba and Morrisson are just youth players who might not make the grade.
 
I'm pretty sure that had Pogba or Morrison played for Everton, they would've started games for them too. It's also worth pointing out that due to Everton's lack of funds and the injuries, Moyes simply doesn't have a choice rather than to start Barkley.

Some people here over-rate our youth players but some are also here that can't admit that our youth players are ready.
 
KM said:
I'm pretty sure that had Pogba or Morrison played for Everton, they would've started games for them too. It's also worth pointing out that due to Everton's lack of funds and the injuries, Moyes simply doesn't have a choice rather than to start Barkley.

Some people here over-rate our youth players but some are also here that can't admit that our youth players are ready.
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Surely if they were "ready" they'd be getting their chance? Its not as if we're overburdened with midfield options in particular.

The fact is most of the young players referred to have yet to make a start in the PL - and one of them was sent out on loan to Peterborough.

I always hope young players make the grade - but I'm realistic in that maybe one or two may make the breakthrough every four or five years.
 
RedRover said:
Surely if they were "ready" they'd be getting their chance? Its not as if we're overburdened with midfield options in particular.

The fact is most of the young players referred to have yet to make a start in the PL - and one of them was sent out on loan to Peterborough.

I always hope young players make the grade - but I'm realistic in that maybe one or two may make the breakthrough every four or five years.
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It's way that Fergie has always managed young players. He has never really given the young players any breakthrough before they're completely ready.

The only reason that Barkley got a start was that Arteta and Fellaini were both unfit and therefore on the bench. Pogba and Morrison are amazing talents but still they wouldn't get a start over Anderson, Fletcher, Carrick, Cleverley and Giggs.


Oh and I don't know what you're trying to prove with your loan to Peterborough point but the fact is that the likes of Cleverley, Welbeck and Evans were all send to loan to lower league clubs in the last two three years and this policy has reaped enough good benefits.
 
KM said:
It's way that Fergie has always managed young players. He has never really given the young players any breakthrough before they're completely ready.
The only reason that Barkley got a start was that Arteta and Fellaini were both unfit and therefore on the bench. Pogba and Morrison are amazing talents but still they wouldn't get a start over Anderson, Fletcher, Carrick, Cleverley and Giggs.


Oh and I don't know what you're trying to prove with your loan to Peterborough point but the fact is that the likes of Cleverley, Welbeck and Evans were all send to loan to lower league clubs in the last two three years and this policy has reaped enough good benefits.
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Exactly the point I'm making - players are ready when, and if the manager deems them to be.

It may very well be the case that this young lad got his chance because of injuries or issues with squad depth, and he seems to have taken it with both hands. Indeed, I'm sure some decision has been taken based on his ability - as he cant be the only other midfield player at Everton.

As regards the lad at Peterborough I'm trying to show that fans on here who seemed to think he was ready for the first team were (according to Fergie) off the mark.

Plenty of players who go out on loan never come back as well as the few you mention who have made the first team - my point being that while its great to have youth team players coming through it can never be guaranteed, therefore its right for United to consider other players at other clubs if they think they may impprove the squad.
 
You can't just lump all youth team players together, though. If these ones are deemed to be special talents then you absolutely can ignore other ones. Some are more likely to make it than others. As for guarantees...of course there's no guarantees, just like there isn't with Barkley who's made just 2 appearances for christ's sake. Your 'realism' means you simply don't have any faith in our youth players, you just have a blanket expectation that all of them will fail until one or two out of nowhere squeeze through. You were just as happy to swap Welbeck for Rodwell last year, and Welbeck would be lucky to get 15 games here this season...the cow analogy comes to mind.
 
Brwned said:
You can't just lump all youth team players together, though. If these ones are deemed to be special talents then you absolutely can ignore other ones. Some are more likely to make it than others. As for guarantees...of course there's no guarantees, just like there isn't with Barkley who's made just 2 appearances for christ's sake. Your 'realism' means you simply don't have any faith in our youth players, you just have a blanket expectation that all of them will fail until one or two out of nowhere squeeze through. You were just as happy to swap Welbeck for Rodwell last year, and Welbeck would be lucky to get 15 games here this season...the cow analogy comes to mind.
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You seem to be suggesting that I advocate the club going out and signing this lad when clearly I don't - and you're completely missing the point I was trying to make, namely in response to people suggesting that we shouldnt be keeping an eye on young players at other clubs because of the players we have coming through.

Said players may become first team fixtures, and I sincerely hope they do, but I've watched enough football over the years not to make any rash judgments - I'll reserve opinion until I see players given a chance and consistently performing at first team level. I don't see that that is particularly controversial.

As for Welbeck and Rodwell I dont see the relevance. Its easy to sit here now when Welbeck has had a couple of decent games in a side which is flying and suggest that I was wrong, but it could just as easily be the case that Rodwell (a talent from what I've seen of him) gets fit and has a great season. Its all a matter of opinion.

Its an argument for another thread but would Welbeck have started over a fit Hernandez at the start of the season? Probably not - hence why I doubted he would get regular starts. In fairness the lad has taken his chance and I couldn't be happier - but clearly luck plays a part and anyone who says that they were sure he would play regularly back when I made my comment was doing exactly what I was doing - having an opinion.

Very easy in hindsight to claim the high ground.
 
The relevance is that you consistently doubt our promising players while at the same time praising other teams' young players. And then you present this as being 'realistic'. To me it's largely baseless negativity...I mean, you've probably seen one full game of Barkley, Pogba and Morrisson combined and yet Barkley's an emerging talent whereas Pogba and Morrisson are just promising youth players who might not (probably won't, as you seem to be suggesting) make it. You talk about waiting for players to consistently perform at first team level...in the same thread you're praising Ross Barkley, a player who's made one start.

As I said, the cow analogy comes to mind.
 
Brwned said:
The relevance is that you consistently doubt our promising players while at the same time praising other teams' young players. And then you present this as being 'realistic'. To me it's largely baseless negativity...I mean, you've probably seen one full game of Barkley, Pogba and Morrisson combined and yet Barkley's an emerging talent whereas Pogba and Morrisson are just promising youth players who might not (probably won't, as you seem to be suggesting) make it. You talk about waiting for players to consistently perform at first team level...in the same thread you're praising Ross Barkley, a player who's made one start.

As I said, the cow analogy comes to mind.
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I haven't commented at all on our "promising players" in the reserve or youth teams because I havent seen much (if anything) of them and therefore reserve judgment until I have.

I have made little comment on Barkley save that he's looked decent in the couple of games I've seen. I have also not suggested at any stage that we should go out and sign him so frankly you're wrong in your assumptions.

It's a matter of personal opinion but I get sick of the press building players up to knock them down - and there's a certain amount of it with fans as well. They talk up a player who they've hardly seen or who's the latest hot property then get on his back as soon as he shows any signs of not fulfilling his promise - Fletcher and John O' Shea are good examples.

Cleverly is the latest - he's been superb so far but how long before he or United have a tough time (which happens to all young players) and some of those previously shouting about how we didn't need a top midfielder will be on the warpath. I prefer to be more measured and pragmatic.

I'd love to watch United's reserve team and have an opinion on them but I can't, therefore I don't.

But, I am a realist - specifically that since the unprecedented run of the golden generation of Beckham et al, top youth products have been few and far between. Hopefully this lot are a cut above, but right now its impossible to know. I prefer that rather than having high expectations of young players who frankly, may never make the grade at the very top level.
 
Pogba and Morrison were brought up in the thread in response to people saying we should buy him. They were brought up because - they're in the same age bracket, they play in the same position, and Barkley would cost a lot of money. I don't think anyone's arguing against watching his progress, some just don't think we should be particularly bothered with buying him right now, seeing as we have two high quality emerging talents of our own in that area of the pitch.

Also - you can't be a realist about youth players when, by your own admission, you've not seen them play. Realism is watching them, looking at their strengths and weaknesses, and honestly deciding for yourself whether they have the potential of making it here. Not having a guess based on the last 20 years. People said Welbeck wouldn't make it here based on that reasoning. Whilst he may still not, you won't find the same amount of people arguing that way anymore.
 
I wouldn't say no to Barkley. Looks like a special talent to me.
 
I haven't seen this kid playing but if he's just promising then we shouldn't sign him up. There are many kids in the academy that are promising and lets face it Cleverley-Anderson are hardly old. On the other hand if SAF's thinks that he's special then we should get him. Call me mean but if our scouts find the new Zidane/Scholes (Im not saying that this is the case) then I wouldn't really mind if it ends up sacrificing one of the kids for him.
 
Ubik said:
Pogba and Morrison were brought up in the thread in response to people saying we should buy him. They were brought up because - they're in the same age bracket, they play in the same position, and Barkley would cost a lot of money. I don't think anyone's arguing against watching his progress, some just don't think we should be particularly bothered with buying him right now, seeing as we have two high quality emerging talents of our own in that area of the pitch.

Also - you can't be a realist about youth players when, by your own admission, you've not seen them play. Realism is watching them, looking at their strengths and weaknesses, and honestly deciding for yourself whether they have the potential of making it here. Not having a guess based on the last 20 years. People said Welbeck wouldn't make it here based on that reasoning. Whilst he may still not, you won't find the same amount of people arguing that way anymore.
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Its a matter of opinion, but I don't agree - perhaps I'm cynical but I've heard it all before about how this or that youth team player is going to be top class, and it hasn't happened.

I hope as much as any United fan that we do produce top class players year on year - there's nothing better.

But the facts are that very few youth team players make the grade for whatever reason. A lot of them go on to other clubs and do well but very few are of the standard sufficient to break into what is usually a very good side, so on that basis I dont think I'm being "unrealistic".
 
RedRover said:
Its a matter of opinion, but I don't agree - perhaps I'm cynical but I've heard it all before about how this or that youth team player is going to be top class, and it hasn't happened.

I hope as much as any United fan that we do produce top class players year on year - there's nothing better.

But the facts are that very few youth team players make the grade for whatever reason. A lot of them go on to other clubs and do well but very few are of the standard sufficient to break into what is usually a very good side, so on that basis I dont think I'm being "unrealistic".
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That's all very true and I agree with the main gist of your point.

The thing is, you've previously admitted to not watching any reserve football. The people that do regularly watch our reserves are all in agreement that there's a very special group of young players coming through.

The likes of Welbeck, Cleverley (who was, admittedly, a bit of a late developer) Pogba and Morrison are creating the sort of buzz that hasn't been around since Rossi was scoring a goal a game for the reserves or Pique was starting to come into his own. And look how they turned out.

It's all very well preaching caution and there's no doubt that people do get carried away with our youngsters but you have to be open to the possibility that sometimes really special talents will come through the ranks and the people that are talking them up (not least Fergie himself) might have a point.
 
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