Football is best played on spreadsheets in some peoples eyes.
Ronaldo vs Ronaldo
- Thread starter altodevil
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I couldn’t care about golden shoes. Talking about minnows while Messi is in his second season in France by the way! The man who left Spain after spending what? 8 consecutive El Classios as a non entity and being nowhere in Europe. Messi lack of moments in his final 3/4 years in Barca needs to be talked about and we aren’t exactly tripping over them in his PSG after as well so let’s not start listing top team failures here. Messis big moments in Spain ended up being against Espanyol and the like.
Whoever scored the most goals is the better goalscorer, every top international team plays shit teams but only one seems to consistently score and that man is the top CL and international goalscorer of all time. Not just top but shits on other elite, legendary strikers as well.
It’s consistency that key, that should be the founding aspect of any goal scoring argument, not cherry picking what you think is worthy.
Surely to feck if we’re saying Messi is the better player, which he is, then Ronaldo overcoming that in the goal scoring charts shows what an immense goal scorer he was?how do the two argument align against Ronaldo then?
Again, feck Ronaldo but claiming he’s some small side slayer is beyond ridiculous. He’s arguably the greatest big game player the game has ever seen
Yes, Muller, Cruyff, Platini etc. all had the chance to play against Faroe, Andorra, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Gibraltar, San Marino, Azerbaijan, Armenia, Kazkhstan, Liechtenstein etc. etc. etc multiple times.. and they had to play less games because there were much fewer games to be played. You are aware these nations (Ronaldo's all time favorites) were not competing in EC qualifications before 90s, right?
As the great Eusebio said:
"The comparisons make me sad. It's easier now. I never played against Liechtenstein and Azerbaijan".
"It's wrong. There is no comparison. I scored my 41 goals in 60 games. It's easier now because you play more games against weak teams. I feel sad"
https://www.marca.com/2013/09/11/en/football/international_football/1378917585.html
imagine thinking statpadding against Andorra, Faroe, and tons of other new teams including former Soviet Union nations make you the greatest goal scorer ever (same goal per game ratio as Lukaku-- half of Gerd Muller) because well he scored more playing over 100 games more.. Greatest goal scorer of all time with 0 knock-out goals and assists in 5 WCs, 1 top league goal scorer award in 8 years
Just to be clear, while R7 is not a top 50 player in my eyes, still he was a world class player of course. About messi- he is one of the best ever but i feel he is overrated as well, in the last WC for example he was average, he had 1 amazing moment with that assist but other than that.. still people compare his WC to maradonna in 1986 . Expect france (with 58 old giroud leadinf thr line) they had easy draw and extremely generous refrees (4 of 5 penalties were ridiculous)
I don't even know what you're trying to argue now
And to top it of, the people who do think so have usually no idea how to interpret data or statistics.
This is one of my biggest bugbears. I had statistics as a mandatory part of my degree so seeing how mishandled raw data and statistics are is so grating.
Hmm seriously? I don't necessary disagree with anything else on your post, but this? How many CL finals he played and how big was his contribution in those finals? I remember his years with us when for a long time he was criticized for never doing it against the top clubs. Then he scored that header vs Chelsea in the CL and missed a penalty. He is by no means a small team slayer as he did show some big performances in big games but nowhere near enough to make the greatest big game player of all time.
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Yes I remember at least CL finals for Madrid where he dI’d very little, Di Maria and Modric had far better performances.
Yes I remember at least CL finals for Madrid where he dI’d very little, Di Maria and Modric had far better performances.
If context matter, any player who scored 800+ goals mostly in top 3 league (as the only player in the history achieving such feat), including most goals (140) in CL, deserved to be mentioned as greatest goalscorer of all time.
He was good at milking the moment. I remember against Atlético in 2014 Ramos equalized, Bale scored the winner but it was Ronaldo's picture when he celebrated the fourth at the end of extra time. Two years later, they won on pen and he converted his. Another year, Bale scored that worldly against Liverpool which leaves us with his final vs Juventus when he scored twice. I am only mentioning his goals because I am sure even his fans won't claim he contributed with much else.
If we look at the big games in La Liga, he had some brilliant performances vs Barcelona but again, is it anything that really stands out? Maybe his most memorable big performance for me was with Portugal vs Sweden in a WC qualifier when he scored a hattrick. He is not a bottler in big games but he isn't some serial big game performer either.
And Gareth Bale outperformed him in 2 of the 4 finals for Madrid. He had only one great game in his 5 CL finals though Casemiro was better in that same game.
To be fair, I think in general it’s also easier to score in the old days, as modern day football as whole has far better defensive tactics than the old days. It’s evidential that most strikers back in those era has far better goals per game ratio than most strikers in modern football. Which makes it even harder to compare across different eras.Yes, Muller, Cruyff, Platini etc. all had the chance to play against Faroe, Andorra, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Gibraltar, San Marino, Azerbaijan, Armenia, Kazkhstan, Liechtenstein etc. etc. etc multiple times.. and they had to play less games because there were much fewer games to be played. You are aware these nations (Ronaldo's all time favorites) were not competing in EC qualifications before 90s, right?
As the great Eusebio said:
"The comparisons make me sad. It's easier now. I never played against Liechtenstein and Azerbaijan".
"It's wrong. There is no comparison. I scored my 41 goals in 60 games. It's easier now because you play more games against weak teams. I feel sad"
https://www.marca.com/2013/09/11/en/football/international_football/1378917585.html
imagine thinking statpadding against Andorra, Faroe, and tons of other new teams including former Soviet Union nations make you the greatest goal scorer ever (same goal per game ratio as Lukaku-- half of Gerd Muller) because well he scored more playing over 100 games more.. Greatest goal scorer of all time with 0 knock-out goals and assists in 5 WCs, 1 top league goal scorer award in 8 years
Sure you could say the rules back then has less protection for attackers and some tackles are more reckless. But that only means strikers from old days are more likely to get injured.
I have not said Ronaldo is not one of the greatest goal scorers ever.. I am only against the idea that he is the undisputed greatest goal scorer ever and many people will agree with that.. There are multiple players who can have a legitimate claim for that including Pele, Messi, Muller etc..
So you'd also exclude Maradona and Ronaldinho because their peaks were too short?
Maradona had at least 8 years being world class, his peak wasn't precisely "too short", it only looks short compared to GOATs of consistency like Messi,Pele,Platini,Di Stefano, and Cristiano...but other than that, Diego was far more consistent than R9, Zidane, Ronaldinho, etc
Ronaldinho and R9 don't belong in the same tier as Maradona,Messi, Cruyff, and Pele...they really don't.
Maradona's peak lasted 5 years at best. Joined Napoli in 84 and was already past his best in 89. If longevity was so important, he should have no business being in the same tier as Pelé and Messi. And Ronaldinho wouldn't even belong in the second or third tier going by this.
So to me, R9 absolutely belongs there because of his peak.
Diego was a monster since his Argentinos Juniors days, when argentinian league was one of the best in the world and the best argentinian players were playing there, and didn't need to move to Europe for better wages.
Discounting Diego's time in Argentina seems like an eurocentric view of football, certainly the only mediocre seasons Diego ever had in his career (by his own standards) were the 2 seasons he was in Spain with Barca and his last one season with Napoli.
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Maradona was actually very good prior to 84. For example he moved to Barca in 82 as world most expensive player, there was also very high expectation on him in 82 WC too. Prior to that, he was South American player of the year in 1979 and 1980, which is not easy feat as he has to beat the likes of peak Zico, Socrates, Kempes to win that, which means he has to be playing at world class level at the very least. He also scored 43 goals in 45 games in Argentina league in 1980. So I'd say his "world class years" span from around 1979 to 1990, thats over or around a decade.
1979 - Won FIFA youth WC with Golden Ball. South American player of the year
1980 - scored 43 goals in 45 games in Argentina league. South American player of the year
1981 - Argentina player of the year. Include in world all star team. 2nd in SA player of the year, losing to Zico
1982 - already well established as world class player, move to Barca for world record fee. 3rd in SA player of the year, losing to Zico
1983 - Include in world all star team, during his most disappointing time at Barca, stills scored 23 goals in 35 games in La Liga.
1984 - move to Napoli for world record fee again, entering his peak years, include in world all star team
1985 - peak years, include in world all star team, Serie A footballer of the year, won Onze award (European player of the year)
1986 - peak years, won WC with golden ball, won every individual awards he is eligible, won Onze award
1987 - peak years, won Serie A, won Onze award
1988 - peak years, won Onze award
1989 - peak years, Serie A top scorer, SA player of the year, won Onze award
1990 - last of his peak years, won serie A, SA player of the year
No way Ronaldinho or R9 has similar length of worldclass years or peak years as Maradona.
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Some good videos:
People trying to down play Cristiano Ronaldo's scoring is hilarious.
He was unbelievable in knock out stages of the champions league. Probably the very best ever.
He was absolutely a big game player.
Looking at his record v Barcelona in La Liga and Spanish cups it's obvious he was a big game player in Spain too. Also his record v Atletico, Valencia etc
He was unbelievable in knock out stages of the champions league. Probably the very best ever.
He was absolutely a big game player.
Looking at his record v Barcelona in La Liga and Spanish cups it's obvious he was a big game player in Spain too. Also his record v Atletico, Valencia etc
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Awesome post. Also, his peak IMO was higher than R9's peak (and probably any other player's not called Messi). And that WC is legendary, the best performance by a player in world cup by a huge margin.
Ability and talent wise? Brazilian Ronaldo, easily. You would think so many people didn't watch R9 play by looking at some posts here. Only stat merchants would have a point about Cristiano. Like someone said, consistency and goalscoring wise, Cristiano of course, but R9 was easily a better player.
If you count Maradona's years in Argentina you also have to count R9s in Brazil and the Netherlands. R9 career start is actually very, very reminiscent of Maradona's, debuting at 16, being called up for the national team at a very early age (R9 in comtrast to Maradona was actually jominated for Brazil's WC winning campaign 94 while Maradona wasn't in 82), becoming Brazil's record transfer with his move to PSV and them the world's record transfer to Barcelona (same as Maradona).
What's hypothetical about memories?
We've seen Ronaldo in '98 and we've seen Cristiano in '08.
Then it's about opinions not hypothesis
They were both good before they came to the big leagues in Europe or in Maradona case before they came to Europe at all, in a different time when the leagues wasn’t so lopsided and Dutch teams could make it to CL finals and also in stone where South American leagues were far better also, it doesn’t get mentioned because people look at it from a modern outlook, Maradonas prime probably started before 84 to be honest.
Its not really the same, even though Ronaldo9 was considered very talented/promising youngster, and scored some good no. of goals during his early years at Brazil league, he was never being once considered as one of the best South American players during that period. Harsh I know, but there were actually other more established/better players out there, and he was just a kid at that time. He was in 94 WC squad, but he was rather unknown quality and the coach didn't even give him any minutes on the pitch throughout the WC.
Whereas Maradona situation is different. He has actually beaten his peers (Zico, Socrates, Kempes etc), who are the world's best players at that time, and being crowned as the best South American footballer couple times during his early career in Argentina. He was already one of the very best players in the world at his early career, and he entered 82 WC as Argentina's hope with very high expectation putting on him, as compared to R9 who was an unknown quality/backup in 94 WC.
But I would still consider R9's 94-95 season at PSV being worldclass, as performance wise he really is. Its abit similar to Haaland situation at Dortmund. We all know he is very good/promising, but we don't know yet how good he is at top level. Unfortunately he was injured in his 2nd season (95-96) at PSV though.
R9's peak/worldclass seasons:
94-95: PSV (marginally, similar to Haaland at Dortmund) - top 10
96-97: Barca (GOAT level) - no.1
97-98: Inter (GOAT level) - no.1
02-03: Real (Ruud/Henry era, he is no longer among top in the game) - top 10
03-04: Real (Ruud/Henry era, he is no longer among top in the game) - top 10
Maradona's peak/worldclass seasons:
79-84: (5 years): top 3
84-89: (5 years): no.1
I think its really a case of him being very unlucky with injuries. Otherwise he could have something like 10 seasons of being at peak/worldclass level. But unfortunately thats not the case in reality.
I would also like to add Cristiano there to give better perspective, as this is his comparison thread with R9 afterall.
06-18: (12 years): no.1 or top 2
18-21 (3 years): top 5
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Are you going to ignore the amount of big performances he has in quarters and semi's? Let alone the actual final he was rhe best player in. Come on
How about the amount of el classicos he performed in?
No I am not which is why I said he was no bottler. My reply was to the claim that he was THE greatest big game player. For that, I think you need more than quarter and semis showings. In just putting his big game return in context, not downplaying it.
I don’t understand this at all. Are knockout games v PSG in the second round etc not a big game? There’s this train of thought that somehow finals etc are just big games but they’re not. Maybe that’s why he’s appeared in 6 CL finals and what? Ten semi finals? The man holds the record for most CL final goals!
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Don't think you know what the word average means
Read again the post this was in relation to. This binary logic is odd. Me arguing he is not the greatest goal scorer there has ever been is not the same as arguing he is a bad big game player.
You’re arguing against the idea that he isn’t the best big game player ever? Most CL final goals ever, 13(?) semi final goals alone. Top scorers in CL knockout games with 67 in 80 games! Setting records in El Classicos and all sorts. I just can’t make sense of any argument coming the other way.
If he is less talented than so many other legends then how can he overcome that difference and end up scoring more than any of them? Surely it’s down to being a better goalscorer since he apparently lacks in every other area?
Performances don't equal goals..
I think i do. In the final di maria was by far the best player. Messi was average. If his name wasn’t messi no one would say he was even top 3 in the final. In addition, he wasn’t the best player of the tournament, he didn’t carried Argentina, he scored unjustified penalties and fair play to him had an amazing assist against croatia i think and thats it. Anyway, 5-6 games don’t say anything, as james from colombia had an amazing wc and he is nothing special while messi is top 3 player of all time
I think you really don’t though. A brilliant goal against Mexico an hour into a game where tensions were high becauseif they lost they’d have probably been eliminated at the group stage. An all round fantastic performance vs Poland minus a penalty miss.
Similar in the last 16 against Australia with an excellent goal and various excellent passes and dribbles to create numerous chances, MOTM. Same again vs Holland with one of the best passes in World Cup history to create the opening goal. And a 5th straight MoTM performance against Croatia again controlling the game and creating various chances with fantastic dribbling, control and passing culminating in that assist for Alvarez to put the tie to bed.
The final wasn’t too different, he controlled the game for about 80 mins, had a crucial touch and pass in the second goal, and came up with a goal in extra time that probably should have been the winner. Showed nerves of steel with his penalties and ultimately produced another match winning display in the biggest game of all. But other than all of that, yeah it was all pretty average
Cristiano in his mid-late 20s was better than R9 even been, In basically almost every single parameter, He basically left the debate in the dust by 2011. Also, Brazilian Ronaldo dribbling is *massively* overrated and the first things that expose the same people who shill him as youtube incubator newcomers, Which feels like most of the people in this thread coupled with the typical Cristiano haters.
What record did he set in el clasico btw?
No one can argue with his overall record in the CL, it’s phenomenal, but to be honest he’s had one stand out performance in 6 CL finals and that was against Juventus. As for overcoming a difference, maybe it’s the same reason the mighty Olivier Giroud is France’s record goalscorer? i.e. a lot of games in very strong and well balanced sides. Similar with the World Cup record goalscorer; the mighty Miroslav Klose.
Allways thought fat Ronaldo has more myth around him,especially his worldcup performances.
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time to pay a good optometrist a visit, man