No chance Rooney has better technique than RVP, who apart from Berbatov probably has the best technique in the league out of all the strikers.
Robin van Persie | 2012-14 Performances
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Whos better?
That's not the type of striker rvp is at all. He is, if anything, better suited to a narrow system than a wide one.
. Well he can do both because he is both strong, and a fantastic technically. But the assertion that he is a hindrence to playing narrowly is odd given he's possibly technical our strongest player or at last right up there. He's more like lewandowski than rvn.
mandzukic imo. not sure if we as fans have statistics available to quantitatively decide who is best defensive striker in world. interceptions, tackles and distance covered dont really cover whole story.
He was outstanding in his last season at Arsenal, a team that had/has no problems attacking through the middle. So he has the skillset to adapt. Problem is, Rooney is not a number 10. So it is between RVP and Rooney. Unlike others, I think we would be fine with picking either one to start on top, they offer different things to the attack but are excellent footballers and strikers.
Remember when we used to laugh at the scousers for labeling Kuyt the best defensive striker/winger in the world a few years ago?
Depressing.
Regarding "defensive strikers", it depends. If you want your striker to hound and Harry and press, then Suarez and Tevez are better. Rooney is better when chasing a fullback and getting stuck in.
Kuyt was shit offensively though. He just ran around a lot. Rooney is an actual class attacking player who also adds a lot defensively.
@Gladiator Must admit I havent seen enough of Mandzukic to give an informed opinion on that. In any case, its not like you listed a vast amount of good strikers, so we can agree that Rooney is at the very least one of the top strikers defensively and that hes far better at that than RVP.
i just listed mandzukic as an example. i haven watched enough football to really know if Cavani is better but Suarez puts in a good defensive shift as well. I'm sure you could find many strikers better than Rooney or mandzukic but at end of day what does it really mean or accomplish?
I think the best defensive striker in the world discussion is a bit pointless because if you play in a system that requires the striker to be less defensively involved, then it negates the fact that said striker has some very good defensive abilities. You'll see more attacking than defensive contribution which would lead you to say another striker is better defensively. In this era, not uncommon for strikers to be defensive. As long as the striker can defend from the front effectively and pick his moments to help out defensively in deeper areas, then I'm happy with that. But defending should be more about the unit than the individual which is why I find "best defensive striker in the world" talk a bit silly.
On RVP, let's not act like he can't put in a good defensive shift. He does come deep and help out defend at times but it's highlighted much less than Rooney. The issue is with RVP's age and average mobility, we're probably better off asking him to defend from the front and focus on holding up the ball in opponent's defensive third to let players get beyond him and score goals. Personally, when a striker is tracking back to the LB position then I feel something is unstable in defensive system. But sometimes the situation requires it.
agreed. Rooney burns a lot more energy through chasing but imo i dont necessarily regard that as effective pressing. Various forms of applying pressure and think you highlighted that pretty well
i know. we're so fickle arent we?
Rooney's defensive work shows how dedicated he is on the pitch. Its not like hes chasing about like a headless chicken when its going well for the team, but if things arent working out he does his part to try and drive the team on. And that includes putting in a defensive shift. In RVPs case he just goes completely invisible when the team isnt clicking.
you simply have to see how he operated at Arsenal to know he can definitely operate in a narrow context. Again I feel our fans are just desperate to see the team playing well again that now RVP has become the scapegoat again for the reason we arent so fluid. However, he's been part of some fluid attacks this season (i.e. Valencia's goal against Leverkusen at OT. He made the pass which set Young on the break). We were all happy to congratulate him then but clearly the narrative has changed now. So it's not a matter of with RVP in the team, we can't be fluid. It's more complicated than that imo
This isn't really true though. Look at some of the games from early on this season or from last season. He was defensively involved even when we weren't at our best. Why do you make generalities when there's at least been examples of the opposite of what you've said? To make a claim like this, it's as if you remember RVP's defensive contributions from each game he's been involved in. I know I dont and the same goes for Rooney too. There's also been games where Rooney has not put in a good enough defensive shift. It's football, it happens. For this season, Rooney's defensive work has been much better than last season. But this does not translate to Rooney always working hard for the team. Because there have been cases where he hasn't and in those cases, questions were asked. But we know more often than not, he will put a shift in and due to his productivity for us, we grant him more leeway
Its clear to me that we disagree. I think RVP has been poor lately. It shows in his performance that hes annoyed at the situation, and his comments in the media reflect that as well. Hes doing less to put himself in good positions than we saw last season, in which he was very good, and just seems absent overall.
I dont like our 2striker partnership and I dont think it works. From a theoretical point of view it also makes more sense with our squad to play with another player in the hole than Rooney. That leaves two choices, drop Rooney (or put him on the wing) and let RVP play striker with Mata/Kagawa behind, or drop RVP and put Rooney up top. Id like to see the latter and I think thats the best long term choice.
You admit that you dont remember all games and then claim I dont know what Im talking about
I remember well enough that Rooney has shown more determination and work rate than RVP this season. Thats not a generalization, its a fact. If you think RVP has had a good attitude this season and played well then theres no reason continuing this discussion as we have vastly different opinions of what to expect from our players.
I dont like our 2striker partnership and I dont think it works. From a theoretical point of view it also makes more sense with our squad to play with another player in the hole than Rooney. That leaves two choices, drop Rooney (or put him on the wing) and let RVP play striker with Mata/Kagawa behind, or drop RVP and put Rooney up top. Id like to see the latter and I think thats the best long term choice.
You admit that you dont remember all games and then claim I dont know what Im talking about
I remember well enough that Rooney has shown more determination and work rate than RVP this season. Thats not a generalization, its a fact. If you think RVP has had a good attitude this season and played well then theres no reason continuing this discussion as we have vastly different opinions of what to expect from our players.RVP is a great player no doubt, but I feel like his days here could be numbered. And probably for the best too. His attitude just doesn't seem to be right and as a team we look better without him on the pitch. Being able to play Kagawa, Mata and Januzaj behind Rooney just screams "movement". Something we desperately need in our play. That's such a deliciously fluid front four. We also have Welbeck to rotate in, who is equally fluid and adds the dimension of pace. RVP is never going to be content with being anything other than THE man, so I see a split in our near future. If we can get a reasonable fee for him, then I think it'll be a good deal. He's the wrong side of 30, has a questionable fitness record and the rumours of his discontent are never ending. Plus, we got our title out of him. Now we have to rebuild.
I could see him, Hernandez, Nani, Young and Valencia all fecking off in the summer. Assuming we can get the replacements. I wouldn't have any problem seeing any of that lot sold.
I could see him, Hernandez, Nani, Young and Valencia all fecking off in the summer. Assuming we can get the replacements. I wouldn't have any problem seeing any of that lot sold.
Yup, yup.
i never claimed you didn know what you were talking about but are you claiming that you remember all the games and the relevant performances of each player (rvp and rooney)? The point was unless you remember everything about their performances from this season, how are you sure it's a fact?Its clear to me that we disagree. I think RVP has been poor lately. It shows in his performance that hes annoyed at the situation, and his comments in the media reflect that as well. Hes doing less to put himself in good positions than we saw last season, in which he was very good, and just seems absent overall.
I dont like our 2striker partnership and I dont think it works. From a theoretical point of view it also makes more sense with our squad to play with another player in the hole than Rooney. That leaves two choices, drop Rooney (or put him on the wing) and let RVP play striker with Mata/Kagawa behind, or drop RVP and put Rooney up top. Id like to see the latter and I think thats the best long term choice.
You admit that you dont remember all games and then claim I dont know what Im talking about
Also you didnt qualify your claim with "this season" which changes the context of the discussion. Hence why I referenced last season as an example to you of how things can change in football. Was Rooney always putting in those same type of defensive shifts last season? Even in RVP's goal drought last season,he still put in work. Why am I including last season? Because I think it adds some perspective to what we've seen this season with the changeover. if one example is shown that does not support your claim, then you cant say your view is a fact.
about rvp's attitude recently and the strike partnership, i think those are separate topics to discuss
Fair enough. I dont claim to remember the entire season as in every individual match, no, but Im basing my view on having watched all United matches this season and the general impression I have after watching those matches. I know a lot on here are disappointed in Rooney and think RVP is better so its not like I find your opinion outlandish.
Or just goes ahead and a goal after feeding off scraps all game.
This doesn't really have to do with Rooney though or whether or not RVP is better. It's about defining an accurate picture/representation of these players, their relative seasons, performances and what that means. This is why there are differing views/opinions and maybe even beliefs from what we see. Because going off our general impressions can mean that we reach very different conclusions. The issue with trusting your impression sometimes from a match is the amount of emotion we invest in what we're watching and that can be affected by a range of factors in the game. Hence why someone's view might change after they've calmed down. I've noticed in myself sometimes my view directly after the game is affected by the result and the team performance in the second half but can change upon further reflection much later after the fact.
This is why you can get a different impression of the match if you watch it a second time around.
He had a good partnership with Hernandez in 10/11 and a good partnership with Welbeck in 11/12 and if you're bringing up ex players then he has gelled with plenty considering the amount of strike partners he has had.
He links well with players like Mata and Kagawa and different types of players like Valencia. I find it odd that you feel he doesn't gel well with the players.
Suarez IMO.
Welbeck is a good hustler up that end of the pitch, better than Rooney.
His stride just seems to catch players out, he doesn't look like he is moving really fast but he eats the ground up, add his strenght to that mix and it causes all sorts of problems.
His stride just seems to catch players out, he doesn't look like he is moving really fast but he eats the ground up, add his strenght to that mix and it causes all sorts of problems.
RvP so underrated on here. A part of me thinks the two players are actually too good not to be able to gel. If someone else was our manager (Pep for instance) I'd be curious how they gelled together.
Guardiola would ask the more versatile of the two (Rooney) to let RVP be the main striker and contribute differently for the team. It doesn't help the team when the two of them play next to each other in advanced positions.
Yeah, probably.
I think whatever Moyes does - whether he decides to play both of them, Rooney in a deeper position, or just one of them - whatever Moyes does it's going to be perceived as questionable and full of skepticism. His decision making does not really command respect or belief (at least as of yet).
Whereas if someone like Fergie, or Pep or any of the top proven managers makes a decision, you're more likely to have faith in it and rationalise how they came to that decision.
Last season for instance, RvP obviously had a great season and Rooney was having a decent season til the latter part of the season. I think the position in which he played wasn't the problem towards the end of last season, it was more a general loss of form. Even if he played up front I don't think his head was in it mentally (angling for a new contract, arguing with Fergie etc.).
For what it's worth, I think if RvP and Rooney can 'gel' like they did last season, that'll still be too strong for most teams.
To be fair we are talking about quality players here and not kuyt
He is a better footballer than Rooney. But Rooney by nature can put in a shift and get stuck in, that's the kind of thing we like to see in the English game. For the benefit of the team we need to make a choice between the two. They are our best two players but the team doesn't do well when they are both playing and they don't link up well either.
Rooney gets the nod because he has signed a new contract and he is younger that is it. I would hate to see him go, such a talented player. A complete striker in every sense of the word. I just don't see how we can make it work. We would need to get in two VERY mobile midfielders as i'm assuming Mata will be a fixture in the team from now on too. Between the three of them there isn't enough pace to stretch teams and not become compromised defensively.
Rooney gets the nod because he has signed a new contract and he is younger that is it. I would hate to see him go, such a talented player. A complete striker in every sense of the word. I just don't see how we can make it work. We would need to get in two VERY mobile midfielders as i'm assuming Mata will be a fixture in the team from now on too. Between the three of them there isn't enough pace to stretch teams and not become compromised defensively.
They can't gel cause
A) we don't have the quality cm needed to support them
B) in key games a lone striker would be more appropriate and none of them would accept the bench
For twenty minutes in one game.
He's an incredible footballer going through a difficult season after near perfect 2.5 years. Let's not rush to conclusions.
Such hyperbole from that little spell on saturday.
The point being that Kuyt got stick at a time he was working hard but not scoring or creating goals.
Hardly relevant to this discussion.
I have to believe that Rooney's contract shows United's belief that he's the guy-and will be our main striker next season. RvP was a wonder last year-but he's clearly not happy with the team's set-up and, as everyone's noted not even close to last year's form.
If we assume that they can't play together-for whatever reason-seems to me that RvP has more value in the transfer market than Rooney. That would support selling RvP in the summer and using the proceeds to get in a third striker behind Rooney and Wellbeck. (I'm assuming Chicharito's going too-and yes, I know what happens when one "assumes.")
If we assume that they can't play together-for whatever reason-seems to me that RvP has more value in the transfer market than Rooney. That would support selling RvP in the summer and using the proceeds to get in a third striker behind Rooney and Wellbeck. (I'm assuming Chicharito's going too-and yes, I know what happens when one "assumes.")
The stats show that as a combo, these two work together well - i'm talking in terms of percentage of games won and goals scored - however, we all know stats can be deceptive and in this case I think they are. You don't have to be a tactical wizard to see that it doesn't seem to be clicking on the pitch and RVP doesn't look too interested when playing (my opinion). Maybe we just have to accept that the two won't be able to play well together under Moyes. It's won't be the first time two class players have failed to gel in a system. If this is the case then RVP will be sold. I'd be gutted to see a WC player leave but we may have to accept it.
In an ideal world, RVP will really knuckle down and adapt to play in this new system. Maybe when his value drops and the realisation that he won't get paid as well elsewhere comes to the fore, maybe he will have to do so.
Rooney and RVP playing well together would strike fear into any club playing us - we need this to be the case.
In an ideal world, RVP will really knuckle down and adapt to play in this new system. Maybe when his value drops and the realisation that he won't get paid as well elsewhere comes to the fore, maybe he will have to do so.
Rooney and RVP playing well together would strike fear into any club playing us - we need this to be the case.
Well said. How some are not able to think rationally sometimes is rather frustrating.
I'm baffled by those saying he should leave. Why? He's a quality striker who should be looked after and catered for, they do not come cheap. Rooney is not as good as RvP up front and he cannot be relied upon to stay fit and score goals consistently either.
Also, I'm curious as to who people think we should buy? Cavani will cost an arm and a leg and we'll have to accommodate him as well so wouldn't we be in the same position as now? Rooney, Welbeck and a backup option is not adequate for a club of our size and stature.
Also, I'm curious as to who people think we should buy? Cavani will cost an arm and a leg and we'll have to accommodate him as well so wouldn't we be in the same position as now? Rooney, Welbeck and a backup option is not adequate for a club of our size and stature.
I agree that there's no sense in him leaving but if he does, highly unlikely we'l replace him with another striker. Rooney up top, Mata behind him.
D**n you-those are great points that make me reconsider my eariler post. So let me ramble: a happy, motivated RvP paired with a healthy Rooney is a world-class strike partnership. No doubt. However, I fear that is not what we're looking at. Assuming Moyes remains in place--it seems that is not compatible with a happy RvP. Now, maybe that relationship can be repaired--and all of this is moot. But, assuming it's not-then I think we're looking at selling him in the summer (RvP, not Moyes).
TBH-I'm not sure who we replace him with. If we play mostly 4-2-3-1, then I imagine Rooney, rotated with Wellbeck is good enough-and all we're looking for is a third striker to be slotted in to cup ties and the odd game when we play 4-4-2. I think our fee for RvP will determine the kind of player we can look at.
I just don't see us selling Rooney after that huge rigmarole with his contract extension. Not saying it's a great option--but I'm not sure we'll see a productive RvP with Moyes around.
Dirk Kuyt, you divv. You've all been "praising" him for it for years as well.
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