Rob Dawson ESPN: Solskjaer tells players he wants to implement a more attacking 4-3-3 this season.

Ali Dia said:
The funny thing is everyone is blaming the “pivot” for all our woes. It’s not the pivot. It’s that we give the ball away a lot in the middle whether that’s Pogba or Bruno giving it away for fun and they need to be covered for and supplied with the ball and it’s too much work for one player. The main problem and I’ve been banging my head against the wall saying this all last season is our attack. It’s low energy and one dimensional and very reliant on Bruno to do “something”. It’s quite telling when a supposedly past it free transfer can walk into your supposedly world class team and show everyone else up no? That’s the main problem. Greenwood Martial and Rashford all offer the exact same thing as each other but at least Greenwood can mix it up on either foot
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Agree.

If we manage to start the games against lower teams, with more intensity and tempo, we would be much better off. We kind of start cold, then opposition gains confidence and McFred cannot wrest the control back . We end up depending on Bruno to lift us..
 
shabin_d_great said:
Agree.

If we manage to start the games against lower teams, with more intensity and tempo, we would be much better off. We kind of start cold, then opposition gains confidence and McFred cannot wrest the control back . We end up depending on Bruno to lift us..
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Yup. Pogba Martial and Rashford especially are guilty of this. They just let the other team play their game and wait for their chance to shine. It’s not aggressive enough.
 
It is a needed change. I genuinely believe we can't get to the next level without this change. Which teams have genuinely won something without playing 433
 
https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...an-united-training-spotted-greenwood-21052619

United confirmed the appointment of former Chelsea Under-23 assistant Eric Ramsay earlier this week as their first set-piece specialist and individual development coach.... United conceded 14 goals from set-pieces last season as it constantly proved to be a thorn in Solskjaer's side, and the appointment of a coach to deal with the problem is certainly a step in the right direction... Ramsay has already got started and his impact will hopefully be clear to see when United return to action..
 
You need a specialist DM for a proper 433 so I hope we have one lined up. I don't see Camavinga as that player, he's more of an 8.

Also, is there room for Bruno in a 433 unless he plays as a false 9?
 
Haven't we heard all this before? Basically, talk is cheap.
 
If this is actually true then he needs to sign a new contract asap, Pogba too.

It's about fecking time.
 
Blood Mage said:
Also, is there room for Bruno in a 433 unless he plays as a false 9?
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I don't see that as a big problem. His passing is high risk (by design) so sure, you want to avoid him being in deeper areas doing that all the time. But he's a hard worker and prepared to press and challenge players, so its not like he's going to be a ghost when we're out of possession.

The issue would be playing him alongside Pogba, who also likes a high risk pass. Unless this mythical DM is not only a defensive beast but a progressive passer, we might struggle in games that are decided by who wins the midfield possession battle.
 
RkkMan said:
Times like these I feel like strangling Mourinho for choosing Matic and Fred over Fabinho. An out out DM is ESSENTIAL for this formation to work. We wouldn't be having any problem transitioning to a 4-3-3 if we had Fabinho now but we either have to spend heavily on a new DM or gamble with Fred/Scott as anchors which will inevitably fail
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The kick in the teeth for me is, Fabinho cost 44m, Fred was 47m and Matic was 40m. Fabinho and Fred were signed weeks apart!!
 
Even if we sign a DM. Playing Pogba and Bruno as 8’s in a 4-3-3 will not work. Pogba doesn’t track back and can be careless in possession. Bruno gives the ball away too much.
 
Canucantona20 said:
Even if we sign a DM. Playing Pogba and Bruno as 8’s in a 4-3-3 will not work. Pogba doesn’t track back and can be careless in possession. Bruno gives the ball away too much.
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These are overstated.

Pogba tracks back well enough given he's played in a 2 for his entire career with us without a world class DM, and we don't have terrible defensive numbers.

And Bruno is a very intelligent player, he's careless in possession simply because that's his role in the team. With a more measured role and Sancho and Pogba alongside him providing adequate creativity, he won't feel the need to give the ball away as much as when he does playing with McFred and 3 strikers/Dan James.

Theoretically these weaknesses you see in the players should improve with the formation change, as they'll share the burden with each other in a much better way.
 
Canucantona20 said:
Even if we sign a DM. Playing Pogba and Bruno as 8’s in a 4-3-3 will not work. Pogba doesn’t track back and can be careless in possession. Bruno gives the ball away too much.
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Bruno runs around like a wild man & Pogba’s lack of work rate is overstated, he gets about the pitch. It’ll be fine.

This formation also suits McTominay & VDB more too when called upon.
 
More than a purely defensive minded player, we need an intelligent midfielder with good positioning and passing abilities, and above average defensive abilities.

A defence duo combo of Varane and Maguire is good enough for any attack, and with one of the full back tucked in sometimes, the back line will be as good as any in the league.

It is the holding midfielder who becomes one of the most important pieces in this setup. A clever player, agile, press resistant, with good passing and ball shielding skills and above average defensive skills. Instead of going for expensive options like Ndidi and Rice(who are both quite average on the ball), I have Bisssouma, Bruno Guimaraes from Lyon and Mikel Merino from Real Sociedad as quite interesting options. I would love Kalvin Philips too, but I don't think Leeds would let him go.
 
Needs a hell of a defensive midfielder behind Bruno, Pogba, Rashford and Sancho. Don't really think it's possible. Pogba is too attack minded, so is Bruno. Rashford and Sancho do very little defensively. Swap Pogba with a midfielder who is more natural playing deep and is just better defensively or a natural at dictating tempo (Verratti, Modric/Kroos types), then for sure not a problem.
 
We need a young enough, mobile CDM with good passing ability.

Matic isn't mobile or young.
Fred and McTominay can't pass to save their lives.

I would sell one or two of them and go all out for what we need to play a 433.

Casemiro/Fabinho type. Must be someone that fits what we need and is available. It's not as though we've got thousands of scouts worldwide or something.....
 
If we are going 433 It’ll surely be either Fred or McT then we’ll sacrifice Shaw to help back up Fred or McT by having him come inside more so we can get all the good players up top and still have Shaw in a position where he can support the attack but able to get back in to LB position when needed. Trippier can play the same role where I doubt Telles or Wan can.

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Something like this when we are at full tilt. We did something similar post Lockdown having Shaw inside and it was some of the best stuff we played in recent memory.
 
bosnian_red said:
Needs a hell of a defensive midfielder behind Bruno, Pogba, Rashford and Sancho. Don't really think it's possible. Pogba is too attack minded, so is Bruno. Rashford and Sancho do very little defensively. Swap Pogba with a midfielder who is more natural playing deep and is just better defensively or a natural at dictating tempo (Verratti, Modric/Kroos types), then for sure not a problem.
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The beauty of having a team full of quality is that the players who usually wouldn't track back for lesser teams, tend to do so in a team when the level of quality is on par with theirs across the board.

The only 2 players who unequivocally wouldn't adjust their game regardless of team are Messi and CR7. Everyone else will adjust to being more team-oriented when they play in a team where they're not top dog anymore.

Add to that the fact that we should be the ones doing the attacking most of the time, and I think the DM worry isn't as great as is made out.

We've been overly defensive for far too long, allowing the likes of Fellaini, Scott, Fred, etc to become mainstays in the team, as well as the 2 DM setup most times. We need to start figuring out how to cram as much quality on the pitch as possible, and simply overwhelm teams.
 
He'sRaldo said:
The beauty of having a team full of quality is that the players who usually wouldn't track back for lesser teams, tend to do so in a team when the level of quality is on par with theirs across the board.

The only 2 players who unequivocally wouldn't adjust their game regardless of team are Messi and CR7. Everyone else will adjust to being more team-oriented when they play in a team where they're not top dog anymore.

Add to that the fact that we should be the ones doing the attacking most of the time, and I think the DM worry isn't as great as is made out.

We've been setup overly defensive for far too long, allowing the likes of Fellaini, Scott, Fred, etc to become mainstays in the team. We need to start figuring out how to cram as much quality on the pitch as possible, and simply overwhelm teams.
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Against half the league its fine, but I do think against any tougher game we'd ideally want more security there and wouldn't get away with Bruno and Pogba together. Ideally for me we'd replace Pogba with a top midfielder who is a natural deeper, as I think both him and Bruno are made to be midfielders with the most freedom in a 3.
 
Yea, saying you will do something and actually doing it are two different things. Transitioning from a defensive coach to an attacking one is easier said than done. I bet his natural instinct will be to go back to what was comfortable when he figures out that he isn’t close to being a Pochethink, Guardiola, or a Klopp. What works for him has always been to counter attack. Similiar to Southgate, Ole is a defensive coach that has a lot of great attacking talent.
 
bosnian_red said:
Against half the league its fine, but I do think against any tougher game we'd ideally want more security there and wouldn't get away with Bruno and Pogba together. Ideally for me we'd replace Pogba with a top midfielder who is a natural deeper, as I think both him and Bruno are made to be midfielders with the most freedom in a 3.
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Most midfielders of that type will be more dynamic when they're younger, and then move deeper and control the game more as they age.

Pogba is the right age and profile to do that, we saw him play the role to a very high level at the Euros. I expect Bruno to do similar a little bit later, but right now Pogba is at the worst age profile to get rid. He's entering his prime midfielder years.

Getting a natural deeper controlling midfielder is another option we could take, but that requires spending money and time when IMO now is the time to really go for it with the age profile of the squad we have.
 
Its going to be Varane and then with Rice in DM.

If we can;t afford Rice can always move Lindelof to DM role instead..
 
Implement is a totally different word than change.

It's been clearly obvious that a consideration and implementation to 3 central midfielders has been in their mind for over a year and a half.

Ole always talked about not having a full pre season to evolve the team. With the shortened pre season last year and condensed schedule, it was all about rest and recovery.

The double pivot was always a point of contention because United are the only team in the top 5 who deploy a double pivot with only 2 CBs.

With Sancho as the creative player across the front line, United are able to have multiple players across thr attacking third and midfield in the name of Bruno, Pogba, DVB, and Shaw.

Even if Varane does sign, United will still have to continue to build and improve the team through transfers or integrating youth players.

The club has to rest on some key positions within the next 2 seasons, regardless of introducing a new tactical formation.

GK, CM, and CF. That's the spine of your team. Settle it and let it be, but the sooner the better.
 
There is a fundamental problem with putting a purely defensive minded midfielder like Rice/Mascherano at the base of our midfield alongside Pogba and Bruno.

-------Rice
Bruno--Pogba

Looks great right? The reason it wont work is there is no player there that is good at progressing the ball from deep, which is an issue we have. If a player presses Rice, we are f-ed. Pogba struggles and loses the ball in a deeper role. Both him and Fernandes' strength lies in being creative and scoring goals. You need a player like Kroos, Thiago, Xavi, Veratti in place of either Bruno or Pogba for that formation to work. Or you get a complete DM like Busquets, Carrick, Keane etc who can shield the defence as well as progress the ball forward. They are very hard to find. You can find a DLP, but then you need to replace Pogba/Bruno with Fred/McT.

-------Neves
--Fred--Bruno

Is a far more balanced midfield. You have a player to control the tempo, you have a high energy ball winner, and you have a creative/goalscoring player. The backup midfield is decent too.

-------Garner
----McT--VdB
 
I really like the sound of it but I'm not sure how it would play out. We've seen that Bruno's best footy has come as a number 10 with two midfielders defensively covering him allowing him to take risks with his passes and ball movement. However Pogba and Van de Beek could potentially play a role in the midfield three if we sign a defensive midfielder. But something seems a miss to me, even if we signed, say, Rice, who plays the destroyer role, I'm still not convinced our midfielders could recreate the Pep's city system mainly because Bruno (our most important attacking player) has showed he plays best when he has licence to free roam. For these reasons I'm not sure an attacking 4-3-3 ala Liverpool or City (2020-21) would really be beneficial for us. Though hopefully I'm wrong and it all comes together!

Having said that, it's an interesting tweak that could pay off.
 
Scanning through the posts I am surprised people are not pointing out that we probably need a better DM than Fred or McT to pull this off.

Other than EVERY OTHER feckING POST that is!
 
Highfather_24 said:
Looks great right? The reason it wont work is there is no player there that is good at progressing the ball from deep, which is an issue we have. If a player presses Rice, we are f-ed. Pogba struggles and loses the ball in a deeper role. Both him and Fernandes' strength lies in being creative and scoring goals. You need a player like Kroos, Thiago, Xavi, Veratti in place of either Bruno or Pogba for that formation to work. Or you get a complete DM like Busquets, Carrick, Keane etc who can shield the defence as well as progress the ball forward. They are very hard to find. You can find a DLP, but then you need to replace Pogba/Bruno with Fred/McT.
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This assessment makes sense, but you do need to account for us playing 2 midfielders regularly instead of 3.

If the whole point of the formation change is to get both Bruno and Pogba dictating deeper, doesn't it stand to reason that they wouldn't lose the ball as much or need to be as risky when they can bounce off each other, as opposed to being more isolated in the 4-2-3-1?

The few times we've played Pogba as a LCM, my impression has been that he takes better care of the ball and is more effective defensively in that role in the half space. And when Bruno plays deeper at RCM, he dictates and influences the game far better.

In short, a lot of the perceived weaknesses of our mids are a direct result of the formation we play.
 
Rozay said:
We seem to just want to put as many good players on the pitch as we can, whether we are playing to their strengths or not. I’m expecting the latest chapter of that to unfold soon with the purchase of Sancho.
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You dont think he is a good fit at RW?
 
Highfather_24 said:
There is a fundamental problem with putting a purely defensive minded midfielder like Rice/Mascherano at the base of our midfield alongside Pogba and Bruno.

-------Rice
Bruno--Pogba

Looks great right? The reason it wont work is there is no player there that is good at progressing the ball from deep, which is an issue we have. If a player presses Rice, we are f-ed. Pogba struggles and loses the ball in a deeper role. Both him and Fernandes' strength lies in being creative and scoring goals. You need a player like Kroos, Thiago, Xavi, Veratti in place of either Bruno or Pogba for that formation to work. Or you get a complete DM like Busquets, Carrick, Keane etc who can shield the defence as well as progress the ball forward. They are very hard to find. You can find a DLP, but then you need to replace Pogba/Bruno with Fred/McT.

-------Neves
--Fred--Bruno

Is a far more balanced midfield. You have a player to control the tempo, you have a high energy ball winner, and you have a creative/goalscoring player. The backup midfield is decent too.

-------Garner
----McT--VdB
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From what I have seen with Rice he is actually good at getting away from the press and you will usually see him come out of tough areas before going on a dribble that goes quite deep. It's more his passing once he does that is his problem.
 
Rozay said:
With this change, we’d be going from a system, as @Ali Dia has correctly pointed out repeatedly that doesn’t fit Pogba as the best role for him in the 4231 would be the 10 - to one which, to me, makes Bruno the odd one out. He obviously deserves a crack at stamping his role in the 3, but the switch immediately swings the suitability from Bruno to Pogba, in terms of who is in their optimised formation.
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Overall I think I agree. If the plan is to use Bruno next to Pogba.

I do think Bruno would work just as good as a «false nine» between Sancho/Martial and Rashford/Greenwood. Not sure if that is the plan, but it would be a good solution in my opinion.

We only have one striker that is really adept at pressing and he is 34/35. Firmino was basically a ten prior to Klopp and Pep play without a striker all the time. I think we would miss a focal point (someone who can play with their back to the goal) in the final third, but with Bruno, Pogba and a third «runner» in midfield (someone like Fred?) we would be alot better at playing against a low block.

But yes, we probably need a new DM.
 
Bebestation said:
From what I have seen with Rice he is actually good at getting away from the press and you will usually see him come out of tough areas before going on a dribble that goes quite deep. It's more his passing once he does that is his problem.
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Good point. We need a good passer who can pass through the lines and control the game from deep. We need someone to control the game in midfield and spread the ball. Pogba and Bruno are not that player. Neither is Rice. Rice would have been a great addition to our team if we had Thiago instead of Pogba.

He'sRaldo said:
This assessment makes sense, but you do need to account for us playing 2 midfielders regularly instead of 3.

If the whole point of the formation change is to get both Bruno and Pogba dictating deeper, doesn't it stand to reason that they wouldn't lose the ball as much or need to be as risky when they can bounce off each other, as opposed to being more isolated in the 4-2-3-1?
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It could work. I'm not sure it will. I dont think either Pogba or Bruno are a natural tempo setter like a Kroos, Scholes or Gundogan are. They are both final third players imo. They are both good on the ball and brilliant passers ofcourse. Ole has tried Pogba in a deeper role to see if he could be a DLP but it doesnt work. I think what you are suggesting is a City like approach where D.Silva and KdB were both playmakers acting as #8/#10 hybrids, but I dont think either Pogba/Bruno are as good as Silva at controlling the game. I'm just not sure if either Pogba or Bruno is suited to the "dictating deeper" like you say.
 
Rozay said:
Can’t see this being great news for Bruno. Think asking him to be a CM makes it far easier to improve upon him in an elite team. In a role where he isn’t primarily expected to score and create loads, I doubt it would take too long before the question of whether more conventional ‘midfielders’ would be better suited. Like when Bellingham comes onto the market perhaps, or if we get Camavinga or Mejbri kicks on.

His current role extracts the optimum from him I believe.
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I think a 3 man midfield suits numerous players in the setup. And I feel Bruno's place in the first 11 will be threatened by Hannibal Mejbri as he physically matures.
 
He'sRaldo said:
The beauty of having a team full of quality is that the players who usually wouldn't track back for lesser teams, tend to do so in a team when the level of quality is on par with theirs across the board.

The only 2 players who unequivocally wouldn't adjust their game regardless of team are Messi and CR7. Everyone else will adjust to being more team-oriented when they play in a team where they're not top dog anymore.

Add to that the fact that we should be the ones doing the attacking most of the time, and I think the DM worry isn't as great as is made out.

We've been overly defensive for far too long, allowing the likes of Fellaini, Scott, Fred, etc to become mainstays in the team, as well as the 2 DM setup most times. We need to start figuring out how to cram as much quality on the pitch as possible, and simply overwhelm teams.
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Like Pogba did for France? You’re totally guessing and stating it as if it will become fact when the reality is it’ll probably be very similar to the other 5 years and how he was for Juve too. Let’s hope the signings (Varane especially) do a better job of covering for him than at the Euros or than I think they will or can. I’m very interested to see what ole is cooking up but whatever happens you’re constantly shitting on our other midfield players to big Pogba up when the truth is they’ve been doing their jobs pretty well in the box to box. It’s Pogba who hasn’t been able to for whatever reason.
 
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