The thing is, it still isn’t 100% ideal, but we can only try. We want as much quality as we can get on the pitch. The issue is that we also want the right qualities on the pitch, and I am sceptical as to whether a 3 with Bruno and Pogba can provide it.
Rob Dawson ESPN: Solskjaer tells players he wants to implement a more attacking 4-3-3 this season.
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The thing is, it still isn’t 100% ideal, but we can only try. We want as much quality as we can get on the pitch. The issue is that we also want the right qualities on the pitch, and I am sceptical as to whether a 3 with Bruno and Pogba can provide it.
Casemiro is the significant difference. Very significant I would say.
I think something along these lines, but perhaps Fred instead of VDB.
Camavinga Bruno Fred
Or something. I’d prefer Pogba in the mix tbh but that’s a separate issue.
We are not getting a DM unless Pogba leaves imo. So if we want to be more attacking in a 4-3-3 its going to be one of
Pogba Bruno
Fred
Or Fred
VdB Bruno
DM
DM
We've been quite successful with Fred + Pogba holding vs weaker teams and Fred + McTominay in games where we could play on the counter. Our problems started arising when the formation we needed wasn't possible due to injuries.
I don't think people should be getting their hopes up, because 4-3-3 will likely have the same players on the pitch. If true, it's probably just an option that will occasionally be pulled out, much like Ole's 5-3-2.
With the new formation, it's Fred in the holding role (unless Garner impresses in preseason) and Matic as backup? Doesn't excite me much. With the low fees I'm seeing mentioned for some DM's that aren't Camavinga, I'm hoping we'll spend an extra 10-20 million on a punt, in addition to Varane and Sancho.
I don't think people should be getting their hopes up, because 4-3-3 will likely have the same players on the pitch. If true, it's probably just an option that will occasionally be pulled out, much like Ole's 5-3-2.
With the new formation, it's Fred in the holding role (unless Garner impresses in preseason) and Matic as backup? Doesn't excite me much. With the low fees I'm seeing mentioned for some DM's that aren't Camavinga, I'm hoping we'll spend an extra 10-20 million on a punt, in addition to Varane and Sancho.
Why arent we getting one in the first place is the real question. He's not a DM and we could do with a proper one that can play more than 10 games a season without moving like a corpse on the pitch.
Maybe you're correct and we won't sign a midfielder. But it has been reported that we're open to signing one, hence the links to Camavinga.
I wonder if we go down the City route of having inverted fullbacks, and that is why Trippier is being sought? Luke Shaw has already shown he can perform that role during his time with LvG and even Jose at times. Trippier and Shaw as inverted fullbacks who come into midfield in defensive transitions would then mean that Pogba and Bruno can push forward into attacking areas and do what they do best.
Do you guys think Trippier could play the DM role on this formation?
Is Camavinga good enough to start though? I thought we wanted him more because he's just a talent we should get when the opportunity comes
wait, what?
I know it sounds dumb
, but with many fullbacks getting convert to DM roles that I though maybe it could be a reason why Ole want him to play this formation. I must confess I have only seem Trippier play a little bit only (Euro and some Champion League games)AWB and Trippier at rbI know it sounds dumb
Southgate would probably try it.
He's not a DM so no. If we did try and "Kimmich" our own solution then Ole would probably try it with AWB. Trippier will be signed to give us an offensive outlet from FB.
Im the same but the one thing I will say is Varane and someone like Camavinga should definitely shore up the spine and change the way we move the ball and defend as a unit. I have the same doubts as you but I really wouldn’t be surprised to see Pogba start the season on the left. I’m pretty much 100% expecting it if he’s still here. Maybe Ole is just kicking the can down the road instead of tackling the issue head on and having to answer all the Pogba questions. I guess the proof will be in the signing of a contract. if that happens then obviously we have to try everything to fit them both in. Bruno is a good lad I’d say he’ll give it his all wherever he ends up even if his numbers drop off. It’s not ideal but we might still adapt and be able to play higher up as a unit with the improved spine and more pace and power in behind
More attacking players? We already have striker + 2 wide forwards + Bruno, all of them not working hard off the ball which is why we use McFred in midfield.
Honestly can't see it happening unless we get a proper DM. Neither of McTominay and Fred will perform the pivot role in 3 man midfield.
Honestly can't see it happening unless we get a proper DM. Neither of McTominay and Fred will perform the pivot role in 3 man midfield.
If you look our issues when it comes to progressing play and the personnel occupying the roles, then i'd say Camavinga would start due to his skillset providing a potential solution. But that doesn't mean he can play as the fulltime DM in a 3 man midfield with two #8s. The reason I name dropped him was due to our reported interest and willingness to sign a midfielder which has also been reported.
Did you not read the bit about no more McTominay & Fred double pivot??
Hopefully we after because that's the way I can see 2 8s working whether Pogba stays or not
The funny thing is everyone is blaming the “pivot” for all our woes. It’s not the pivot. It’s that we give the ball away a lot in the middle whether that’s Pogba or Bruno giving it away for fun and they need to be covered for and supplied with the ball and it’s too much work for one player. The main problem and I’ve been banging my head against the wall saying this all last season is our attack. It’s low energy and one dimensional and very reliant on Bruno to do “something”. It’s quite telling when a supposedly past it free transfer can walk into your supposedly world class team and show everyone else up no? That’s the main problem. Greenwood Martial and Rashford all offer the exact same thing as each other but at least Greenwood can mix it up on either foot
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My suspicion is simply that a 433 will create the same questions about Bruno that a 4231 creates about Pogba. Unless he becomes Verratti, De Jong or a Barella, then we’ll likely spend a few months of good intention before accepting that he is not a central midfielder, and then either dropping him in bigger games as we have done with Pogba at times and bringing in a Donny or Fred (if we are committed that a 433 is our preferred formation), or simply changing formation again at some point in the season back to a 4231 because of an insistence that Bruno needs to play. Very similar to Pogba currently. Of course, we’ll take the easy option and play both against all the bottom teams, but that would be kicking the can.
As I’ve said for 18 months, I still feel the issue started when we brought Bruno in the first place. It showed poor planning. Bruno’s signing only made sense if Pogba was leaving. If Ole was still insistent that he sees Pogba as a central cog in whatever he is trying to build, then he should have targeted a Saúl or similar in the first place. This is the sort of approach that has made me doubtful of how far we can go. We seem to just want to put as many good players on the pitch as we can, whether we are playing to their strengths or not. I’m expecting the latest chapter of that to unfold soon with the purchase of Sancho.
So
Dave/ Hendo
AWB, Maguire, Varane, Shaw
Bruno, Fred/McTommy, Pogba
Sancho, Cavani, Rashford
I think our midfield won't be good enough and will have issues tracking runners. Really need a very disciplined and strong holding player in there.AWB, Maguire, Varane, Shaw
Bruno, Fred/McTommy, Pogba
Sancho, Cavani, Rashford
That was obvious to most people with a basic tactical knowledge.
Theres definitely still a massive element of poor planning (goalkeepers, Jones contract, Ighalo not playing for 6 months, Williams and so on) so nothing would surprise me to be honest. I’m certain we bought Bruno (and VDB) because Pogba wanted out and then Pogba had a change of heart once the feel good factor came back. I also don’t think a big offer ever arrived for Pogba like he expected so we kicked the can down the road. We’ve clearly got no problem stockpiling players in certain positions and leaving other positions thread bare. I think it’s slowly getting better but it’ll take a few years and a lot of trial and error before it’s running like clockwork again. Hopefully we have a plan. It wouldn’t surprise me if we don’t though
I agree with everything you’re saying
So either Pogba is leaving or will be played on left. He is no way playing Pogba and Bruno with a DM unless we sign a monster DM.It will still be Fred, Scott but one of them will be box to box.
When was the last time a team played a 433 without a box to box (but equally good at defending) player? You can't play a 433 without a tireless box to box midfielder who can defend. Pep is the only who actually played like that but his full backs becomes narrow while defending.
When was the last time a team played a 433 without a box to box (but equally good at defending) player? You can't play a 433 without a tireless box to box midfielder who can defend. Pep is the only who actually played like that but his full backs becomes narrow while defending.
Big fan of Fabinho are you?
I'll try and remain respectful by simply saying this is a unique look on things and one I 100% disagree with in it's entirety
I doubt it to be honest. We would need a proper defensive midfielder for it and even if Camavinga comes, he’s too young to play the role on his own. Rice will cost £70 mill.
I reckon we’ll stick with the double pivot.
I reckon we’ll stick with the double pivot.
Did every CAM in football have to only play in a 4231?
Were they not great ones that played in a 433?
Were they not great ones that played in a 433?
There's no way Bruno will be dropped just because we switch to 4-3-3 as the main formation. It's not a video game. You lot are making it sound like a 4-3-3 need at least 2 top CMs for it to work. Ole wont do it if thats the case because he has 2 top AMs. He's not stupid and he isnt playing Pro Evolution Soccer.
The other teams/players know now the game of Fernandes....so if he plays a bit deeper then it can be very important.....you must always a bit change your own game.
It really wasn't obvious, and I predicted he would prioritize a CB over a DM if he wanted to implement a high pressing game with lightening quick transitions, due to the backline (CBs) required to play with high risk which has been reported by both Dawson and Ducker.
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By that token, other top teams who play with 3 cms should jump at the opportunity to bring in Bruno if he becomes available, regardless of his strengths. It’s about square pegs in square holes.
I don’t think Ole will drop Bruno either, but that doesn’t make it worse idea than trying and failing for months to make something work with his favourite players rather than the most suited. As you said, he’d be better off reverting to a 4231 if that were the case. But managers do make tough decisions, and managers have dropped better players than Bruno (and Pogba too, before we go off on a tangent!) in the history of football to get the blend they want to play with.
Ideally, a coach should know how he wants to play and then acquire the players suited to it. And sell the players who are not. It sounds simple, but not a concept I think we have necessarily grasped. Something needs to give between Bruno and Pogba, and Ole needs to be the man who is brave enough and decisive enough to make that decision. Not dropping others because they are softer touches, like playing Rashford on the right instead of playing Greenwood on the right, despite the obvious fact that Greenwood is better suited to the right than Rashford. Needs to stop.
I'll try and remain respectful by simply saying this is a unique look on things and one I 100% disagree with in it's entirety
Respectful is a huge step for you sir, I’ll take it any day!
Any chance lindelof to DM if Varane comes in?
Bang on! I would add to your astute diagnosis our insanely dire set piece defending.
No because Ole doesn't read the caf. What is it with this place and these daft daft ideas of plonking players in random positions?
We have a new coach for that so expect us to never concede from a set piece ever again and Maguire to hit 20 goals in all comps next season