Right Winger... Who do we go for?

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Craig Ward said:
Griezmann could play as a winger, the point is he wont be that effective there. sure he'll do a job, but we already play Rashford/lingard/miki/mata out of position.
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I've already explained why the argument is clear BS. He won't just 'do a job' there. He'd be world class there. I can accept the Mourinho wants specialists argument. But the other? No way.
Craig Ward said:
Remember when we played Rooney out wide?
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Again. Another poor example. Rooney was a 'do a job else where" player. At his best He wasn't a multi role attacker ala a CR7 or Messi. He couldn't operate in all forward attacking roles at a world class level. A Griezmann can, because he learned how to operate down the middle, having started out as a potentially world class winger. Similar to CR7 and LM10 before him. This is a guy who could got to a barca for example and comfortably replicate in a wide forward role most of what a Neymar gave them. That is why I wouldn't be surprised if Jose targeted him and another multi faceted attacker like, to operate on either side of Lukaku, and an Ozil to operate behind them. They would be excellent alternatives to landing proper wingers/wing attackers like Perisic.


Anyway the template I know Mourinho likes is having one specialist winger/wide attacker who can defend down one flank, with one more attack/goal oriented one, with his defence skill a bonus. Its worked for him since his Porto days and I can't see it changing. Its why he targeted Perisic to play opposite the likes of Rashford/Martial. Hence I see him going for Malcolm only if he has an attacking player who can defend on their other flank, or is comfortable with the defensive work Martial/Rashford have learned to do under his guidance.
 
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Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
He was a quality winger. Right now he is simply a world class multi role player ala Hazard, Neymar, Dybala, Messi or CR7 etc and that is what you'd be playing 90m for. I don't buy any argument that claims he can't play wide to the same level he does down the middle.
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He was a quality winger but turned world class, playing as a striker. Do you think Bale is a world class leftback as he's a world class winger?
 
Mcking said:
He was a quality winger but turned world class, playing as a striker. Do you think Bale is a world class leftback as he's a world class winger?
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Bale is simply an irrelevant example. He was a championship starlet who was interesting the likes of United as a fullback. Yet when a top flight side signed him he flopped in his original position till Redknapp had the idea to change his role . Griezmann in comparison was performing as a winger, in a La liga side, to such an extent that a Championship winning and champions league challenging side saw it fit to purchase him and unlike Bale he thrived from the start. Even when employed in an unfamiliar role upfront that he eventually made his own. A role he only got shifted too because of the goal threat he had started to show in his previous role. The notion he has "forgotten" how to play his former role is up there with arguing a Messi can't operate wide after years as a central attacker at Barca. Griezmann only changed roles due to a Simeone seeing in him the potential to wreck havoc in central areas. The same Pep saw in a Messi, not because he wasn't top draw in his former role. That is why I can't believe anyone seriously believes he has forgotten how to operate wide, now that he is a proven world class performer. I'm certain for example, if a Barca signs him he will prove such doubters spectacularly wrong. Because Barca won't sign him to play down the middle.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/syndic...ugh-to-the-big-time-at-real-sociedad.amp.html
 
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If the club really think that Lukaku, Martial and Rashford can all play together and that Martial and Rashford are going to be very genuinely world class players soon, I think we should sign Lemar.

Lemar isn't a high upside choice or incredible value, but he's so versatile that I think he'd help us in basically every formation, and getting a left-footed creator who is comfortable in the middle third makes a lot of sense considering that Martial and Rashford are right-footed final 3rd players.

I believe Lemar has been playing as a 10 lately for Monaco, he often plays in a 3 man midfield for France and was brilliant last year as a LW (who may well have been more productive at RW, as most wingers seem to be on their inverted wing, but Bernardo Silva is also left-footed and tinier and slower and even better on the ball and so the more logical choice to get that spot, since I don't think he'd have been near as effective at RW).

So, we could play any of these front 6s/5s:

Martial------------------Lukaku------------Rashford---
--------------------------Lemar------------------------
--------------Pogba---------------Matic----------------

---Martial-------------Lukaku------------Rashford---
--------Pogba----------Matic--------Lemar--------------


Martial/Rashford---------Lukaku/Rashford---------------
--------------------------------------------------Lemar-----
--------------Pogba---------------Matic--------------------
(5 man backline)

-----------Martial------------------Lukaku----------------
Pereira/Rashford-----------------------------------Lemar
--------------Pogba---------------Matic----------------
 
NoPace said:
If the club really think that Lukaku, Martial and Rashford can all play together and that Martial and Rashford are going to be very genuinely world class players soon, I think we should sign Lemar.

Lemar isn't a high upside choice or incredible value, but he's so versatile that I think he'd help us in basically every formation, and getting a left-footed creator who is comfortable in the middle third makes a lot of sense considering that Martial and Rashford are right-footed final 3rd players.

I believe Lemar has been playing as a 10 lately for Monaco, he often plays in a 3 man midfield for France and was brilliant last year as a LW (who may well have been more productive at RW, as most wingers seem to be on their inverted wing, but Bernardo Silva is also left-footed and tinier and slower and even better on the ball and so the more logical choice to get that spot, since I don't think he'd have been near as effective at RW).

So, we could play any of these front 6s/5s:

Martial------------------Lukaku------------Rashford---
--------------------------Lemar------------------------
--------------Pogba---------------Matic----------------

---Martial-------------Lukaku------------Rashford---
--------Pogba----------Matic--------Lemar--------------


Martial/Rashford---------Lukaku/Rashford---------------
--------------------------------------------------Lemar-----
--------------Pogba---------------Matic--------------------
(5 man backline)

-----------Martial------------------Lukaku----------------
Pereira/Rashford-----------------------------------Lemar
--------------Pogba---------------Matic----------------
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I shrink at the sight of a Lukaku Martial Rashford front three.
 
Mata scored 2 goals today to Mahrez 0, we need a signifigant upgrade, not just a faster version of what we already have IMO.
 
Devil may care said:
Mata scored 2 goals today to Mahrez 0, we need a signifigant upgrade, not just a faster version of what we already have IMO.
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Mata got the goals but Mahrez had far more overall influence. Without Mahrez I'd say that was a 2-0 win for us, without Mata I think someone else would have gotten our goals.
 
endless_wheelies said:
Mata got the goals but Mahrez had far more overall influence. Without Mahrez I'd say that was a 2-0 win for us, without Mata I think someone else would have gotten our goals.
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That's really underrating the quality of Mata's goals, Mahrez wasn't the reason they got the 2nd, and we should have won by 3 or 4, the only thing Mahrez has over Mata is he's faster, he'd not elevate our team beyond what it currently is, he'd just be a sideways move, we need to aim higher IMO.
 
Devil may care said:
That's really underrating the quality of Mata's goals, Mahrez wasn't the reason they got the 2nd, and we should have won by 3 or 4, the only thing Mahrez has over Mata is he's faster, he'd not elevate our team beyond what it currently is, he'd just be a sideways move, we need to aim higher IMO.
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Who's available that's at a higher level than Mahrez? And just being faster is underrating Mahrez a fair bit, he's a far far better dribbler than Mata which would stretch teams a lot, especially as none of our other wide options can dribble convincingly (bar maybe Martial, but he cuts in 90% of the time). He'd only cost around £40m and would be a significant upgrade on our current options.
 
Devil may care said:
That's really underrating the quality of Mata's goals, Mahrez wasn't the reason they got the 2nd, and we should have won by 3 or 4, the only thing Mahrez has over Mata is he's faster, he'd not elevate our team beyond what it currently is, he'd just be a sideways move, we need to aim higher IMO.
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I'm sorry but that's completely wrong. He's faster, he's a better dribbler and he has a better long range shot (think how many goals from shots outside the box he has). These are not even up for debate, if we can't agree on at least these there's little basis for discussion.

I like Mata, I'm the ones the keep saying we should renew him and keep him here, but a RW he's not. Mahrez would offer down the right flank what we have down the left. Penetration and a constant headache for the fullback. It's one of the things I keep saying, with Mata & Valencia down that right side we have no one that has the ability to beat a player and put a cross in that box. As a result I reckon 90% (might be wrong, figure plucked a bit) of our attacks start down the left which makes us predictable. Double mark Martial/Rashford on that side and you've eliminated most of United's threat. It shouldn't be that way.
 
marktan said:
Who's available that's at a higher level than Mahrez? And just being faster is underrating Mahrez a fair bit, he's a far far better dribbler than Mata which would stretch teams a lot, especially as none of our other wide options can dribble convincingly (bar maybe Martial, but he cuts in 90% of the time). He'd only cost around £40m and would be a significant upgrade on our current options.
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Why would they sell him for £40M in this market? He signed a long term deal and we are in the era of extortion

MadMike said:
I'm sorry but that's completely wrong. He's faster, he's a better dribbler and he has a better long range shot (think how many goals from shots outside the box he has). These are not even up for debate, if we can't agree on at least these there's little basis for discussion.

I like Mata, I'm the ones the keep saying we should renew him and keep him here, but a RW he's not. Mahrez would offer down the right flank what we have down the left. Penetration and a constant headache for the fullback. It's one of the things I keep saying, with Mata & Valencia down that right side we have no one that has the ability to beat a player and put a cross in that box. As a result I reckon 90% (might be wrong, figure plucked a bit) of our attacks start down the left which makes us predictable. Double mark Martial/Rashford on that side and you've eliminated most of United's threat. It shouldn't be that way.
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A better dribbler is fair enough but Mata has a good shot on him and is a more compsoed player.

I'm not saying we couldn't do with adding to the RW options in this squad, I just don't see Mahrez as the level of upgrade needed, he's a decent player but nothing more, I see him moving to a team in Serie A, not one of the giants.
 
Devil may care said:
Why would they sell him for £40M in this market? He signed a long term deal and we are in the era of extortion
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That's what was being widely quoted as his price last season given he himself publicly asked for a transfer away, but I was surprised that no one even bid for him. City upgraded their weakness last season (defence), but we did little to improve our attack which was our weak area other than to replace Zlatan with Lukaku. Mahrez is no Messi and may not be on the same level as Salah or Mane (debatable imo, I'd like to see Mahrez given the chance at a top club) but he's better than 99% of the options available to us at a good price and better than all the wide attacking players we have at the moment.
 
marktan said:
That's what was being widely quoted as his price last season given he himself publicly asked for a transfer away, but I was surprised that no one even bid for him. City upgraded their weakness last season (defence), but we did little to improve our attack which was our weak area other than to replace Zlatan with Lukaku. Mahrez is no Messi and may not be on the same level as Salah or Mane (debatable imo, I'd like to see Mahrez given the chance at a top club) but he's better than 99% of the options available to us at a good price and better than all the wide attacking players we have at the moment.
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He signed a new deal since then though, didn't he? I think there's a reason no top clubs have went for him, Arsenal were the only ones to make any concrete move after his one great season, the rest stayed clear, Chelsea didn't see him as an upgrade to Pedro and Willian for instance, there's something flaky about him that I don't see him at a top club.
 
Somebody with pace. I would preferably go for a left footed player.

I actually think Mahrez is worth a punt. He’s proven in the Premier League and let’s be honest this has to be our main priority in the next couple of years. You can’t really make a fight for the Champions League if your not winning your domestic league.

Whilst Mata scored twice today him being used as a RW is criminal. He’s a slow technical player. He always moved into the centre which means on many occasions we don’t have a RW. His sole use should be as a number 10, which is his true position. But then we have so many players not playing their natural position it’s untrue.
 
Josep Dowling said:
Somebody with pace. I would preferably go for a left footed player.

I actually think Mahrez is worth a punt. He’s proven in the Premier League and let’s be honest this has to be our main priority in the next couple of years. You can’t really make a fight for the Champions League if your not winning your domestic league.

Whilst Mata scored twice today him being used as a RW is criminal. He’s a slow technical player. He always moved into the centre which means on many occasions we don’t have a RW. His sole use should be as a number 10, which is his true position. But then we have so many players not playing their natural position it’s untrue.
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A lot of teams operate with a playmaker off the flank, Spurs do it with Erikse, Silva played that way at City prior to guardiola, and Mata has operated there for us and Chelsea, it often means there's a bit more room to pick up pockets of space, where as a player who is quite small and weak like Mata will find it harder in the hole with a press on him. I think in England there is this obsession with having two fast players in the the wide attacking roles, but there is more than one way to skin a cat.
 
Devil may care said:
He signed a new deal since then though, didn't he? I think there's a reason no top clubs have went for him, Arsenal were the only ones to make any concrete move after his one great season, the rest stayed clear, Chelsea didn't see him as an upgrade to Pedro and Willian for instance, there's something flaky about him that I don't see him at a top club.
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What's flaky about him? That great season when Leceister won the league or his great form this season? Who would you rather go for that's better?
 
Devil may care said:
He signed a new deal since then though, didn't he? I think there's a reason no top clubs have went for him, Arsenal were the only ones to make any concrete move after his one great season, the rest stayed clear, Chelsea didn't see him as an upgrade to Pedro and Willian for instance, there's something flaky about him that I don't see him at a top club.
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No he didn't. He signed the deal in summer '16. A 4-year deal. He'll be down to 2 years left this summer. Leicester will sell in the summer, since he wants away, or come summer '19 he goes on the cheap.
 
Josep Dowling said:
Somebody with pace. I would preferably go for a left footed player.

I actually think Mahrez is worth a punt. He’s proven in the Premier League and let’s be honest this has to be our main priority in the next couple of years. You can’t really make a fight for the Champions League if your not winning your domestic league.

Whilst Mata scored twice today him being used as a RW is criminal. He’s a slow technical player. He always moved into the centre which means on many occasions we don’t have a RW. His sole use should be as a number 10, which is his true position. But then we have so many players not playing their natural position it’s untrue.
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Mahrez, who was on the right for Leicester today, came inside just as much as Mata. Think the only difference was, on the occasions Mata and Mahrez were wide, Mahrez had the ability to dribble past two or three players, as we saw when he delivered a cross, which created a clear cut chance for Fuchs.

Having said that, if you have an attacking right back, like we do in Valencia, then cutting inside is fine, especially when you have a 10 like Lingard who is going to run channels. It creates a good balance.

I would like us to get Mahrez, though. As well as being able to play in between the lines and find pockets of space, he can also keep the width and beat his opponent.
 
marktan said:
What's flaky about him? That great season when Leceister won the league or his great form this season? Who would you rather go for that's better?
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When things went wrong at Leicester the season after the title win he was the one that looked disinterested more than any of the others, like he wasn't up for the fight, just an attitude about him, maybe he'd be awesome at a top club but I just feel most will avoid him. Well I don't nessicarily think the option needs to be as direct as many seem to want, for instance Eriksen at Spurs would be my top pick, after that Pulisic who I think is an exceptional young talent who is also versatile, and I also think Carrasco or Lemar would be decent options.

MadMike said:
No he didn't. He signed the deal in summer '16. A 4-year deal. He'll be down to 2 years left this summer. Leicester will sell in the summer, since he wants away, or come summer '19 he goes on the cheap.
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In the current money climate that still isn't going to bring the price below £50M, unless of course nobody else is interested.
 
Devil may care said:
That's really underrating the quality of Mata's goals, Mahrez wasn't the reason they got the 2nd, and we should have won by 3 or 4, the only thing Mahrez has over Mata is he's faster, he'd not elevate our team beyond what it currently is, he'd just be a sideways move, we need to aim higher IMO.
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You are seriously underrating the importance of speed, and the problem with not being fast. Speed is everything in the modern game and Mahrez is also great at doing technical stuff in high speed. He has a sick touch and the ability to create something out of nothing so to speak, as well as set-pieces and shots from outside the box.

Get Özil and Mahrez in and we look like a team that will create tons of chances every game.

Matic - Pogba
Mahrez - Özil - Martial
Lukaku

I am pretty sure Mahrez and Leicester have an agreement in place for a solution once a top club comes knocking, he has given them 18 months of added service after they won the league.
 
Devil may care said:
A lot of teams operate with a playmaker off the flank, Spurs do it with Erikse, Silva played that way at City prior to guardiola, and Mata has operated there for us and Chelsea, it often means there's a bit more room to pick up pockets of space, where as a player who is quite small and weak like Mata will find it harder in the hole with a press on him. I think in England there is this obsession with having two fast players in the the wide attacking roles, but there is more than one way to skin a cat.
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Manchester City were routinely lambasted for their poor defensive cover on the left hand side and also the lack of penetration they had with their limited attacking pace when Silva manned their wing. Mata lasted a couple of months after he was shunted out to the wing by Mourinho before he was chopped for Willian.

Eriksen may be the exception that proves the rule as he's extremely fast.
 
James Peril said:
You are seriously underrating the importance of speed, and the problem with not being fast. Speed is everything in the modern game and Mahrez is also great at doing technical stuff in high speed. He has a sick touch and the ability to create something out of nothing so to speak, as well as set-pieces and shots from outside the box.

Get Özil and Mahrez in and we look like a team that will create tons of chances every game.

Matic - Pogba
Mahrez - Özil - Martial
Lukaku

I am pretty sure Mahrez and Leicester have an agreement in place for a solution once a top club comes knocking, he has given them 18 months of added service after they won the league.
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I'm not underestimating speed, I'm just saying it's not the be all and end all. That side looks so weak for a Mourinho team, and so wide open from a defensive standpoint, Matic will be exhausted by the halfway point having to cover for all of that.

endless_wheelies said:
Manchester City were routinely lambasted for their poor defensive cover on the left hand side and also the lack of penetration they had with their limited attacking pace when Silva manned their wing. Mata lasted a couple of months after he was shunted out to the wing by Mourinho before he was chopped for Willian.

Eriksen may be the exception that proves the rule as he's extremely fast.
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I don't recall anything but praise for Silva when he played off the wing, he constantly effected games for City from there, as did Mata at Chelsea. There was a defensive issue with Silva wide for sure, but not to any degree that would class him in that role as anything but a success. I also wouldn't consider Eriksen extremely fast, he's not slow but he's not fast like Hazard, Salah, Sane, Sterling, Mane, Martial etc....
 
Devil may care said:
I'm not underestimating speed, I'm just saying it's not the be all and end all. That side looks so weak for a Mourinho team, and so wide open from a defensive standpoint, Matic will be exhausted by the halfway point having to cover for all of that.



I don't recall anything but praise for Silva when he played off the wing, he constantly effected games for City from there, as did Mata at Chelsea. There was a defensive issue with Silva wide for sure, but not to any degree that would class him in that role as anything but a success. I also wouldn't consider Eriksen extremely fast, he's not slow but he's not fast like Hazard, Salah, Sane, Sterling, Mane, Martial etc....
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Silva played on the wing under Mancini, with limited overall team success and then Mancini's sacking, after which the first thing Pellegrini did was bring in Navas to provide more direct pace and penetration and then Sterling/De Bruyne the following season to do even more so. Granted Pellegrini did continue tending to play him on the left wing, but I think the praise was more for Silva himself rather than his mastering of the wing position and the manager's tactical genius putting him there. I remember various pundits and MNF pieces on how great he was but how it was a shame he couldn't play more centrally due to Yaya Toure's occupation of that role. And is Mata as good as Silva?

Mata was only moved to the wing when Jose arrived, before then the likes of Kalou/Malouda/Hazard/Benayoun/Ramires were on the flanks for them (Bertrand in the CL final iirc). He spent half a season on the bench then joined us, hardly a success.

I should say Eriksen is fast enough to join counter attacks and cover defensively. For example look at 4:45 - without even doing a full sprint I think he comfortably beats Mata/Silva there.
 
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Devil may care said:
Mata scored 2 goals today to Mahrez 0, we need a signifigant upgrade, not just a faster version of what we already have IMO.
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Mahrez created the games opener and was a constant threat down our left flank. Plus he kept the width all game. Especially second half when he had the constant beating of a tiring Young.
 
I saw some clips of Malcolm. Seems a more exciting player than Mahrez. Although hard to tell whether he has the finesse and extra time on the ball to adapt to the PL. Certainly has the strength, low centre of gravity, pace and a great shot in him. If he's also got the quality in close quarters, then he'd be ideal.
 
Mahrez, to me, looks like a player who is too good for a mid table but actually not good enough for a top team. Think he'll fail to have a major impact if and when he moves to a bug club. Also always wary of players who raise performances during contract years or when they are looking for a move.

Since Jose likes his number 10's to be more runners (Oscar, Willian, Mkhitaryan, Lingard) than playmakers, I would prefer if we go for an upgrade on Mata. I think Fekir or Lemar could be better options for us.
 
Devil may care said:
That's really underrating the quality of Mata's goals, Mahrez wasn't the reason they got the 2nd, and we should have won by 3 or 4, the only thing Mahrez has over Mata is he's faster, he'd not elevate our team beyond what it currently is, he'd just be a sideways move, we need to aim higher IMO.
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Mahrez have both speed, height and weight on Mata. He is a good compromise between Mata's technique and Rashford's physique.
 
Mahrez would be good and we should strike a deal for Kluivert whilst we're at it.
 
Adnan said:
Pulisic or Kluivert would be brilliant.
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We need Pulisic and Kluivert. Rashford should not be played on the wings. His decision making has been very selfish and poor recently. We should develop him into a No. 9. Pulisic, Kluivert and Martial would be great for the wings.
 
beingshe7don said:
We need Pulisic and Kluivert. Rashford should not be played on the wings. His decision making has been very selfish and poor recently. We should develop him into a No. 9. Pulisic, Kluivert and Martial would be great for the wings.
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I would be happy with that
 
beingshe7don said:
We need Pulisic and Kluivert. Rashford should not be played on the wings. His decision making has been very selfish and poor recently. We should develop him into a No. 9. Pulisic, Kluivert and Martial would be great for the wings.
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Kluivert isn't even a starter in Ajax. He won't make it in the Premier League.
 
Gusjaros said:
Kluivert isn't even a starter in Ajax. He won't make it in the Premier League.
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He wasn't at the start of the season, but I'm fairly sure this last month he's started virtually every game and he's scored 6 goals in his last 7 appearances. Saying that, he's not ready for United atm, but he's only 18 and I think he's worth a punt given that he'd probably cost under £20m.
 
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