What does science has to offer on Hope, Faith, Trust etc?
Religion, what's the point?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran are here to talk about a frustrating 2 points dropped at Crystal Palace. They then discuss the regeneration of Old Trafford. Finally, Nik is joined by special guest Michael Statham from the Football Oranje podcast - who gives us a more in depth look at our EL opposition FC Twente, and then runs through the (many) Dutch connections currently at United.
There seems to be a confusion between the notion of a God and the Abrahamic personal God. Atheists will agree that they cannot prove the non existence of the former. However, the latter is clearly pure bullshit and nonsense in all of its forms as has been pointed out numerous times in this thread.
What a stupid question. Since when does religion have a monopoly on hope and trust? Faith can feck off, as far as I'm concerned.
...only by Atheists
Your point that Atheists "cannot prove the non existence of God" - as a Christian, i've been slandered for saying that everytime i've mentioned it, but its a logical point. We will only truely find out when he leave this earth, which i hope is a long way off for us all too. Although, my own faith insists that he does exist & thats my personal choice to think that way!
I find it weird that a "Werewolf" is commenting on God & his existence by the way. Who created you? Maybe you shouldnt answer that to be honest. My brain just gave a couple of possibilities & it doesnt bode well for your Mum & your Dad (with all due respect of course)
...only by Atheists
Your point that Atheists "cannot prove the non existence of God" - as a Christian, i've been slandered for saying that everytime i've mentioned it, but its a logical point. We will only truely find out when he leave this earth, which i hope is a long way off for us all too. Although, my own faith insists that he does exist & thats my personal choice to think that way!
I find it weird that a "Werewolf" is commenting on God & his existence by the way. Who created you? Maybe you shouldnt answer that to be honest. My brain just gave a couple of possibilities & it doesnt bode well for your Mum & your Dad (with all due respect of course)
Atheists concede that we can't prove the existence or nonexistence of a being which is outside of human understand. Christianity on the other hand, is a fairy tale that got out of hand.
Why is that its only Christians that get it in mush when it comes to Religion or the question of the existence of God?
There's plenty more religions out there, but its always Christians that atheists feel are fair game. Yet they wont slag off Muslims, Hindu's, Buddhists etc. because that might be construed on a level of racism / fascism or prejudice. God forbid slagging off the Jews aswell, because that would be wrong considering the "Final Solution" & their persecution. I've never heard anyone slag off the Dalai Lama either in these debates - why's that?
I can probably answer (what you're predictably / cringingly gonna say) that question by saying that you've been more exposed to Christianity more than any other religion & Britain is traditionally a Christian society & we've been beaten with the Christian stick in school etc, therefore we can slag as much as we want lark because its relative & its the main religion for abuses of power throughout time!
I dare you to lay into other religions & their followers with the same venom as you do with Christianity. Go on - lets see your take on them?!
Oh & by the way - science has more fairy-tales than religion will ever have & thats why most people love science & love religion also. Science & Religion have endless possibilities / scenario's & although they're complete opposites - people love, like i do, both subjects..
I'm pretty sure we've spent the last 15 pages telling Danny how shit Islam is.And please, do name these fairy tales of science.
I have read the thread, but it always comes back to Christianity being the problem with religion. I thought i was making a fair point that other religions dont get it in the neck like Christianity does. I stand by that religiously too
A good friend of mine is going on a mission to Togo in the fall. She's been posting all kinds of pointless god crap on facebook of late, how excited she is to "share the word of god" to these people.
Why is it the top tier religions find it perfectly ok to inject their version of mythology and witchcraft on others but how dare another tribal belief system interfere in a society's majority belief?
FFS, some Americans are so worried about Islam that one state, Oklahoma, actually passed a law against Sharia law. How delusional and paranoid can a society become? Yet you'll find plenty of Christians in Oklahoma that do not see the irony in spreading their word to places they feel god has no presence.
Why is it the top tier religions find it perfectly ok to inject their version of mythology and witchcraft on others but how dare another tribal belief system interfere in a society's majority belief?
FFS, some Americans are so worried about Islam that one state, Oklahoma, actually passed a law against Sharia law. How delusional and paranoid can a society become? Yet you'll find plenty of Christians in Oklahoma that do not see the irony in spreading their word to places they feel god has no presence.
I have read the thread, but it always comes back to Christianity being the problem with religion. I thought i was making a fair point that other religions dont get it in the neck like Christianity does. I stand by that religiously too
The overarching theme is that all religion is a load of a horseshit.
It's not just that, those are the same idiots who while telling us that sharia law is evil, will happily tell us that homosexuality is a sin and that gay marriage should be illegal, because the bible says so. Religious people not only need to shut the feck up about their religion, they need the keep it away from the law. There really aught to be more of a distinction between beliefs and political positions. And it needs to be made clear to them they don't have a monopoly over anything, and that just because an idiotic book from thousands of years ago says something, it doesn't mean the rest of us have to live by it. Just look at the daily mail, they'll run articles about Sharia law taking over one day and articles about why gays and trannies are sinful the next.
And please, do name these fairy tales of science.
15 pages? And Christians fabricate the truth?!
Fairy-tales of science?
How about the existence of UFO's, the Yeti / Big-foot & Loch Ness Monster, Abominal Snowman & that old chestnut - Scientology?!
15 pages? And Christians fabricate the truth?!
Fairy-tales of science?
How about the existence of UFO's, the Yeti / Big-foot & Loch Ness Monster, Abominal Snowman & that old chestnut - Scientology?!
UFO's, the Yeti, Big-foot, the Loch Ness Monster, the Abominal Snowman & Scientology are as widely mocked at creationism is. If you think they're anywhere near as respectable as say, quantum mechanics, then you have a loose definition of science.
And yeah, go read the thread again, we've been questioning the idiocy of Islam and the way in which Muslims theocracies subjugate millions of people.
Thats your opinion & very prejudice, but to the majority of people worldwide - its very prominant in their lives!
Why cant you just afford someone else with a differing outlook on life, the freedom to be respected with their beliefs. Its all very hardline Nazi'ism to be honest!
Are you as prejudice about other aspects of peoples lives, as you are with Religion?
It's not just an aspect of peoples lives, though, is it? Gay marriage, to pick an example from the west, is only illegal in so many countries because of moronic Christians. Recently, when France made gay marriage legal 300,000 Christians took to the streets of Paris to protest against. If you really think it's us who are being prejudice because we think religion is stupid and we mock it for being stupid, then you have a loose definition of prejudice. We're not advocating the passing of laws against religion, nor are we hard-line Nazi's, we just think it's factually incorrect and that it should stay the feck out of our lives, which, when you consider the amount of power religion has, it doesn't.
I've read the thread & all i see is pure prejudice of someone who thinks different to what you think. You're right & anyone who thinks different to you are wrong & deluded - paints a pretty sad & prejudice picture of your character, that you dont respect other peoples beliefs or ideals in life!
I respect the right of people to have an idea or belief, but why the feck should I respect that idea or belief? Particularly when it's idiotic. The MPs in the UK recently who voted against gay marriage all did because they were part of the church. Why on earth should I respect such things?
Enjoy. You infidels.
I agree with you Silva, but using words like idiotic about something billions believe in and rely on is demeaning and couter-productive.
Obviously by virtue of your own intellect you have assessed the argument and come down heavily on one side, which is great... And I agree with you for the most part across the thread. We diverge however, in that I see no worth or benefit in deriding and devaluing any belief system that has been present in peoples lives for thousands of years, helping a great majority of people throughout their lives.
I think that as pious and judgemental as some religious folk can be, often the atheist camp is capable of being as bad, derisive and know-it-all. When at the end of the day the simple fact is that not one of us is in posession of all the answers.
We consult out conscience and make personal decisions based on our own explorations and experiences. To talk down to someone because they landed at a different theological point is just poor form IMO. Obviously it's an emotive subject but you can argue and set your stall out without descending to such depths.
You seemed a great advocate of equality in the tennis/feminism topic, what about peoples right to believe in what they wish without chastisement from yourself? Calling the thing people believe in so strongly idiotic is just a little classless for me.
Obviously by virtue of your own intellect you have assessed the argument and come down heavily on one side, which is great... And I agree with you for the most part across the thread. We diverge however, in that I see no worth or benefit in deriding and devaluing any belief system that has been present in peoples lives for thousands of years, helping a great majority of people throughout their lives.
I think that as pious and judgemental as some religious folk can be, often the atheist camp is capable of being as bad, derisive and know-it-all. When at the end of the day the simple fact is that not one of us is in posession of all the answers.
We consult out conscience and make personal decisions based on our own explorations and experiences. To talk down to someone because they landed at a different theological point is just poor form IMO. Obviously it's an emotive subject but you can argue and set your stall out without descending to such depths.
You seemed a great advocate of equality in the tennis/feminism topic, what about peoples right to believe in what they wish without chastisement from yourself? Calling the thing people believe in so strongly idiotic is just a little classless for me.
Very good post Duafc and that's how it should be from any camp be it for or against.
Will the religious also promise to stop preaching that unbelievers will go to hell? They need to respect Atheists as well I guess.
There is no such right. There is no right that guarantees that you won't ever be ridiculed or criticized no matter what you believe. Nor should there be.
That of course is quite different from the right to hold a belief, which was never brought into question. Why people continuously misunderstand this simple distinction I'll never know.
I don't think anyone has a right to believe what they wish without chastisement from those who disagree with them. Don't be such a pussy. If the world worked that way then nobody would have stood up to racism to give but one example. I believe that religion is a poisonous influence upon the human race with untold numbers of people dying in its name; like racism, religion is a hurdle we need to navigate successfully in order to move forward as a species. I don't have to respect the laughable beliefs of the devout and neither will I willingly remain tight lipped in my state of strong objection. I have the right to ridicule that which I find ridiculous and call that which I find as being nonsense nonsense.
That's what I said in the post you quoted.. from any camp be it for or against.
I think part of the problem from some religious folk say Muslims for example, don't understand that not all non Muslims are 'infidels'. All I ask is not paint all 'religious' people by the same brush. There are some great people on both sides.
I was not referencing it as a definitive right contained within the ECHR or any convention, I was merely pointing out my opinion that there are ways to debate and offer your opinions that don't require ridicule, if anything it detracts from intelligent discourse. To be hostile and critical of another's choices on something without a conclusive answer is narrow minded and hugely egotistical.
As if Silva himself knows conclusively more than billions of people across millennia because he reads popular science and can therefore label them idiotic.
As you say there is no right to provide this protection, my point is for someone as rights/equality conscious as Silva, i would have expected more decorum within this debate.
How about when you consider that in societies less enlightened than ours women's sexuality is so sinful that the only logical thing to do is to circumcise them and remove as much of the pleasure as is physically possible? Should we tone down out derision for them too? I refuse to treat religion as anything other than idiotic because for the most part, the organised aspects of those religions and their leaders are backward feckwits who do very little to disassociate themselves from things like the Rwanda genocide, which Catholic priests there supported. Or theocracies across the world which make life harder than it should be for everyone but the already well-off men. Or the Catholic church standing in the way of every single personal freedom that people campaign for, even in the enlightened countries. If it offends people's personal faith, tough luck, it offends my human decency just knowing that they associate themselves with people who commit genocide, with people who enslave others and with the type of ethical reasoning that wouldn't be out of place in the 16th century.
Unbelievable egotism that does nothing but hold us back, warrented it is mirrored by blind faith and aggressive christian faults... I'm not a fan of either.
You have absolutely the right to challenge and say no... To ridicule with hostility is unessacery and classless. By all means say i don't beleive, i don't think that could have happened, I think you're all wrong and this is why.
To say you are all idiots when not one single soul is in possesion of proof is narrowminded, egotistical, confrontational and i think often born from insecurity.
Yep. It's unfortunate if the notion offends a few billion people but frankly, tough luck, religion is a load of bullshit and those people need to get used to hearing that as the species is moving forward rapidly.
What's the point in being polite when telling somebody that their entire way of life is a lie?
What's the point in being polite when telling somebody that their entire way of life is a lie?
What if your child wants to become religious? what would do? Will you allow him the liberty to choose or are you going to inflict the same childhood experience that you encountered by repeatedly telling him there is no god. There are plenty of people who were raised as Atheists who then later chose a religion of some sort.
Are you speaking to the leaders, or the purpetrators of these acts?
What about the billions of people that rely on that community, faith and feeling derived from belonging to a church, the many who 1000000% believe they have a relationship with God and strive to help all others in day to day life, those who through terrible circumstance and strife have persevered and recovered and attribute all postive changes in their life to the church and their religious community?
All idiots.
I agree with you in the theological debate and the mistrust and damaging impact of organised religion, but i'm not about to call every person who doesn't hold the same view an idiot, many a more intelligent man than myself has been a devout believer in a God or a church.
with the all knowing ciderman at the forefront, frankly i'm frightened.In your opinion, cider, it's a lie in your opinion. That message might not be as devastating for them as you may think.
Her. I'm going to tell her that religion is lies and that she shouldn't believe them. She'll hopefully get the point. There's no church for athiesm where we can send our children away to become systematically indoctrinated by professionals.
In your opinion, cider, it's a lie in your opinion. That message might not be as devastating for them as you may think.
It's not a matter of opinion. Certain things are either true or not.
I'm speaking to anyone who associates with that group. If I was a member of of a political party, and one of the leaders within that party started advocating things like genocide I would automatically disassociate myself from that political party. There are also many people who have had a sense of personal fulfillment without the need to subscribe to an organised religion, and kudos to those people, because frankly, whether not you believe in god and no matter how much the church helps people have a sense of meaning in life, it also limits just as many people. People also strive to help others without the promises of reward from god, and I would also question what is so good about helping others specifically because of an attainable reward, surely that's just work? Nor do I think that without the church, those people would have been unable to change their live for the better. I think the people who bettered themselves did so because of their strife and that they give unnecessary credit to god.
And I don't think they're all idiots, just that the ideas they subscribe to are stupid. Much in the same way as the NRA has stupid ideas about gun control, the various religions have stupid ideas about the origins of humanity and the meaning of life. I don't see why I shouldn't say as much.
That's far too simplistic. It's the ultimate question of God, soul and the afterlife; it is all grey area. You believe in the scientific proofs that are totally incongruent with religious proofs (bible etc.) others do not, or amalgamate the two, or just don't know.
Everyone has an opinion, based on their own learning, upbringing, experiences, conscience and a million other things. You may be certain in your mind, as a great many are certain of the opposite, both of you will claim to know for sure, in reality neither does.
Again, from a personal point of view I agree with everything wholeheartedly.
It's not that you can't tell them any of that, it's how you do it that was my only gripe. You chastised Liam for his use
Of sexist language that was demeaning to women and detractig from their status within humanity and there's a certain irony there.
Everything may be black and white to you, cut and dry but that isn't the case for everyone, to project your own certainties on someone else and call them idiotic for not seeing everything the same way is just egotistical and immature. Again, no one has the answers and religious institutions have been prevelent for a long long time with many an intelligent man as a subscriber... They are not the Nazi Party.
I think children should be raised not be gullible, to be able to recognise when something is amiss and not to believe everything they hear. They should perhaps be taught the facts about religion, about how religion first came about and how it became as powerful as it is today; there's no harm in children learning that which we know as being fact. They should never be made to go to any church; sending children to church is an entirely immoral and disgraceful act on behalf of any parent; no child should be exposed to potential indoctrination into any faith. If God truly exists then why does he require children to brainwashed?
I think there's one key difference between the feminism thing and this, with the feminism one it was a case of misusing language to overshadow the achievements of people, with this it's a case of telling religions to stay out of everyone's life and not to force their beliefs onto others through laws and coercion.
And while they may not be the Nazi party, if you look at countries at Saudi Arabia, it's difficult for me not to think of religions as extremists. Personal faith, as long it's actually kept personal and not forced on others is fine and they're welcome to their personal feelings of fulfillment. But as I said 300,000 religious people in France shouting that gay marriage is wrong and MP's in the UK voting against gay marriage for no reason other than their faith suggests that they have a difficulty keeping their faith out of others lives and as long as things like this persist, I will do nothing but ridicule religion for the idiocy that it is.