Religion, what's the point?

Abbsta said:
I personally don't like to judge someone when they are alive let alone when they are dead. However we are asked to judge by the externals not the internals (that's for God).

No it wouldn't sit right but it depends on few things. If they were good people they'll be ok, God willing, and one would 'feel' it. It's like you know there are in a good place. Because there are maybe some connection of some sort. Be a kin or a good act of kindness and so on. The most repeated God's attributes in the Quran are The Most Gracious and The Most Merciful. So, one is always inclined towards Mercy.

The 'judgement' on based on certain characteristics like if they were called to good and they arrogantly reject it and set out to do bad things (eg. Mohammad's tribe). And someone like hitler. With this guy, even though I don't like to judge, I hope he goes to Hell.

I hope this give you an idea.
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That was my point, thanks.

Danny1982 said:
I'm not dodging the question. I answered it. I answered you pretty clearly actually. I told you that my parents are no different from any other person, and I told you how I see it when it comes to any person. You are dodging my question.. Why do they have to be my parents?

About the bolded part, why would it be "wrong"? Because they're my parents, and I love them, so they can't go to hell? What kind of logic is that?!

All I believe in is that if God who has created the whole universe will be the one who is going to make the judgement, then he's definitely going to be more capable of being fair to everybody, than you and me. One of the logical reasons for me to think that is his superior knowledge.. He created the whole universe (if we assume that he did it), and you and I are still struggling to understand 1% of what his creation is all about. I'm pretty sure he's in a better position to make a better judgement than you and me.. So no, I will not complain, even though it might hurt me now to think that parents might be going to hell, as much as it hurts me to think that I myself could be going to hell..
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Well, they don't have to be your parents offcourse, good people in general could be used here. I just named them because they should be some of the closest people for you and you said they weren't muslims.

By your comments I get the impression that you don't care what happens to your parents in that so called afterlife because what your god decides will ultimately be the good decision. That's too easy. This way nothing can ever be questioned.
 
Danny1982 said:
Because I have lived in both societies, and I'm sure if you have, you'll be able to tell the difference as well.

However, I'm not surprised that you all jumped on this statement, while leaving out the most important parts of the discussion.. I'm pretty sure you realize what does it mean when somebody try to hang to a marginal statement that wasn't even part of the original discussion, while neglecting all the important parts that are actually relevant to the discussion.

Besides, we've already established that your "ridiculing" attempts are merely intended to "get back at those who teach their children religion".. "It's your only weapon".. Even though you claim that religious people are the ones who are intolerant, it's pretty clear who is intolerant, and who is incapable of having a calm logical debate.
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Massive arrogance yet again. I was raised religious as was my wife and I can confirm that you are talking out of your arse. Some of the best parents I know are atheists but by far the worst are religious. However, neither of these facts have much to do with God or religion.
 
Danny1982 said:
hell..
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If I thought someone close to me, or actually just about anyone, enemy or not, had an eternity in agony awaiting them after death, I'd like to think I'd be doing anything I could, move mountains if need be to prevent that from happening. You seem somewhat indifferent to knowing what you profess to know. What happens, happens, it's all God's will you konw. Almost immoral one could say.
 
Wibble said:
Massive arrogance yet again. I was raised religious as was my wife and I can confirm that you are talking out of your arse. Some of the best parents I know are atheists but by far the worst are religious. However, neither of these facts have much to do with God or religion.
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You can't even differentiatie between strength of relation, and how "good" or "bad" a parent is.
 
Vato1979 said:
Well, they don't have to be your parents offcourse, good people in general could be used here. I just named them because they should be some of the closest people for you and you said they weren't muslims.

By your comments I get the impression that you don't care what happens to your parents in that so called afterlife because what your god decides will ultimately be the good decision. That's too easy. This way nothing can ever be questioned.
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Let me ask you a question.. What do you say about a law that puts your father in prison for life?
 
Ivor Ballokov said:
I'm not sure I could call a place heaven if I knew my parents were suffering in hell.
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What makes you think that you'll still feel about them the way you feel about them now? Can you (for example) say the same thing about somebody who lost his memory?

There is no evidence that your emotions toward your prent are permanent/eternal, which is why you can't use this as a logical evidence to disregard the possibility of hell and heaven.
 
e.cantona said:
If I thought someone close to me, or actually just about anyone, enemy or not, had an eternity in agony awaiting them after death, I'd like to think I'd be doing anything I could, move mountains if need be to prevent that from happening. You seem somewhat indifferent to knowing what you profess to know. What happens, happens, it's all God's will you konw. Almost immoral one could say.
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If you don't believe in the afterlife, then this life is the "eternity" for you.. There are many people who are suffering a lot in this life, and until they die.

1- Is this fair?
2- What are you doing to stop that (that could be compared to moving mountains)?
 
Silva said:
Okay, I'll alter the question slightly. What makes you think you can claim that one family has stronger bonds than another?
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First of all, I'm glad you finally realized that those are two totally separate issues you're talking about.. The relation between family members can be strong, but it could also be strong in a bad way, for example when a brother is defending his brother regardless if he was right or wrong..

Second, because I lived in both societies, and I saw people in religious societies are ready to sacrifice more for their family members than in non-religious societies. And when I say that, that doesn't mean that religion is the reason behind that, It's a mere observation, without going into it's causes.
 
Danny1982 said:
First of all, I'm glad you finally realized that those are two totally separate issues you're talking about.. The relation between family members can be strong, but it could be strong in a bad way, for example when a brother is defending his brother regardless if he was right or wrong..

Second, because I lived in both societies, and I saw people in religious societies are ready to sacrifice more for their family members than in non-religious societies. And when I say that, that doesn't mean that religion is the reason behind that, It's a mere observation, without going into it's causes.
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Do you not think that might have more to do with the fact that third world countries tend to be more religious, and family bonds are more important in third world countries because of the lack of financial and personal security?
 
Danny1982 said:
Besides, we've already established that your "ridiculing" attempts are merely intended to "get back at those who teach their children religion".. "It's your only weapon".. Even though you claim that religious people are the ones who are intolerant, it's pretty clear who is intolerant, and who is incapable of having a calm logical debate.
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Yep it's pretty clear who's intolerant. The religious kill atheists and preach that they'll go to hell and suffer eternal torment while the atheists ridicule religion and the religious. Now if we could only get the atheists to show a little more tolerance, the world would be a better place.
 
That's the sort of evidence that he deals with. Personal observation. I've lived there, therefore it is as I say. Every post is green smiley worthy.

What's this atheist society that you have lived in anyway?
 
Danny1982 said:
If you don't believe in the afterlife, then this life is the "eternity" for you.. There are many people who are suffering a lot in this life, and until they die.

1- Is this fair?
2- What are you doing to stop that (that could be compared to moving mountains)?
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Just a remarkable comparison. What's the relevance of that? He's questioning the morals of a god who supposedly condemns his subjects to eternal torment.

Your answer to this is that there's suffering in the here and now too, what on earth does that have to do with anything?
 
Danny1982 said:
In fact, if you look at it objectively, the relations between family members among religious people is much stronger than the relations between family members among atheists. But I don't want to get into that now..
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Danny1982 said:
Second, because I lived in both societies, and I saw people in religious societies are ready to sacrifice more for their family members than in non-religious societies. And when I say that, that doesn't mean that religion is the reason behind that, It's a mere observation, without going into it's causes.
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You have an utterly stunning lack of intellectual integrity.
 
Silva said:
He meant the west, which I said, comes down to financial and personal security more than anything else.
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No, let him be more specific. He's making absolutely audacious claims. I'd like to know on what grounds, and with what experience.
 
Danny1982 said:
What makes you think that you'll still feel about them the way you feel about them now? Can you (for example) say the same thing about somebody who lost his memory?

There is no evidence that your emotions toward your prent are permanent/eternal, which is why you can't use this as a logical evidence to disregard the possibility of hell and heaven.
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So in heaven I won't have any of the feelings or experiences that shape me as a character? It sounds like a depressing place full of ignorant bliss to me.
 
Danny1982 said:
I've not used any scripture so far to prove to anything. I'm merely trying to figure out what the real God (logically) should be like, and then start testing different religions against my conclusions..

For example, if somebody tells me that "Fire" is their God, I'm not going to tell him that you're wrong because "my" scripture says so. I'm going to tell him that you're wrong because fire can't be a God, simply because it's part of the universe, and follows it's laws, and thus won't be able to answer the question of the creation of the universe, and so it's pointless to call it God..

Also, your post gives the impression that you think that all religions go against each other.. Do you think so? Do you think for example that Islam says that Christianity is wrong?
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Yes I think it does.
 
Danny1982 said:
If you don't believe in the afterlife, then this life is the "eternity" for you.. There are many people who are suffering a lot in this life, and until they die.

1- Is this fair?
2- What are you doing to stop that (that could be compared to moving mountains)?
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No it's not eternity! This life will end.

1- What, people suffering while I'm not? No, it's not!

2- Probably much less then I should be doing.

You however knowthat people close to you will suffer an eternity in hell, yet do nothing about it.
 
It the end it's actually fairly simple to me. If someone really, genuinely believes that family members and friends of his will go to hell and suffer for eternity, a fate worse than anyone has ever experienced on Earth, and doesn't do literally everything in their power to convert them, then that person is morally wrong. Albeit not as evil as Allah (or Yahweh) is for facilitating the whole monstrous process in the first place.
 
Serves your family and friends right for not believing in the almighty. Your memory gets erased, and even if it doesn't, you've still got 72 reasons not to worry about them.
 
One must surely try. Mohammad himself tried with his uncle (the one who raised him) but his uncle was too old to 'change'. There are so many ways to 'forward' good deeds to the dead. Whether, for example, building an orphanage in their name or simply just praying for them.

On the other hand, Noah asked God to save his son from the flood and God answerd by 'you don't guide who you want'. So only God knows the 'internals' of people and all we can do is ask and pray for them.
 
Danny1982 said:
Let me ask you a question.. What do you say about a law that puts your father in prison for life?
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Well, as much as I would hate it, if he's done something that breaks that law he should serve whatever punishment there is for breaking it. But if it was for breaking a retarded law e.g. not believing in the judiciary system and they had to go to jail for that, it would be a whole different story.

And that's apparently what you don't agree with. In your eyes they have done something wrong by not believing in your god, am I right?
Danny1982 said:
What makes you think that you'll still feel about them the way you feel about them now? Can you (for example) say the same thing about somebody who lost his memory?

There is no evidence that your emotions toward your prent are permanent/eternal, which is why you can't use this as a logical evidence to disregard the possibility of hell and heaven.
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Yeah, after all, they're only your parents, eh? Not some character from a book.

Seriously, the mind boggles.
 
Ivor Ballokov said:
So in heaven I won't have any of the feelings or experiences that shape me as a character? It sounds like a depressing place full of ignorant bliss to me.
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Heaven is a morphine drip :drool:

Actually heaven is dipicted in Islam as having rivers of wine, honey and milk. Lots of Golden Grahams and cirrhosis of the liver then! On the plus side, I think that us men get more than one wife :)
 
Abbsta said:
One must surely try. Mohammad himself tried with his uncle (the one who raised him) but his uncle was too old to 'change'. There are so many ways to 'forward' good deeds to the dead. Whether, for example, building an orphanage in their name or simply just praying for them.

On the other hand, Noah asked God to save his son from the flood and God answerd by 'you don't guide who you want'. So only God knows the 'internals' of people and all we can do is ask and pray for them.
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No, one must not try. We should leave people to choose whatever they want to believe in (if they want to believe in anything that is) according to their reasoning and logic. We must teach them from a young age critical thinking and provide them with the necessary tools to analyze arguments using a scientific approach. Do this worldwide for 2/3 generations and religion will melt like butter under the sun (or so I hope...)
And his uncle was not too old to 'change', he just had his own religion and beliefs. Mohammad came from nowhere and wanted to impose his religion on his people. It's by means of brain washing from a young age that religions can survive, at an age when a child's mind is still vulnerable and when adults' claims are considered gospel.
 
Werewolf said:
No, one must not try. We should leave people to choose whatever they want to believe in (if they want to believe in anything that is) according to their reasoning and logic. We must teach them from a young age critical thinking and provide them with the necessary tools to analyze arguments using a scientific approach. Do this worldwide for 2/3 generations and religion will melt like butter under the sun (or so I hope...)
And his uncle was not too old to 'change', he just had his own religion and beliefs. Mohammad came from nowhere and wanted to impose his religion on his people. It's by means of brain washing from a young age that religions can survive, at an age when a child's mind is still vulnerable and when adults' claims are considered gospel.
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Thats contradictory in its fullest form. Make your mind up for God's sake :rolleyes::smirk:

Religion has pro's & cons, but its a personal choice or a belief for those to decide. As much as its been rammed down peoples throats that God doesnt exist because there's no proof - the folk that beat that drum offer no proof that he doesnt exist. There's more people that believe in God than dont - so is the minority right & the majority wrong?

Having faith doesnt incline a person to be institutionalised in organised religion, what it does is give a person a belief that there's more to life than the elements all around us. I have faith / spirituality & love science too, but i most certainly would never ram my beliefs down someone's throats.

There's no harm in having a feeling / belief, that there's more to life than what we see or feel. Whats not to like about believing that when you die you'll be reunited with loved one's for an eternity. No-one will ever know until that day comes, but i believe that i will, like the majority of people throughout the world!

Each to their own & respect people's positive outlook on life & the afterlife - if they choose to believe there's one. That should be the standard practice, sadly it isnt though!
 
That wasn't his point, his point was that people should be exposed to all arguments before they get institutionalized. That when parents kids that god definitely exists, someone should also tell them god definitely doesn't exist. Otherwise the kids don't really have a fair chance, if you consider something a fact for longer than you have living memory, it's quite hard for a new idea to come along and have an impact on you. If, however, you're exposed to all the ideas possible, you're more likely to come to your own conclusion, as opposed to just believing something because your parents do.
 
Werewolf said:
No, one must not try. We should leave people to choose whatever they want to believe in (if they want to believe in anything that is) according to their reasoning and logic. We must teach them from a young age critical thinking and provide them with the necessary tools to analyze arguments using a scientific approach. Do this worldwide for 2/3 generations and religion will melt like butter under the sun (or so I hope...)
And his uncle was not too old to 'change', he just had his own religion and beliefs. Mohammad came from nowhere and wanted to impose his religion on his people. It's by means of brain washing from a young age that religions can survive, at an age when a child's mind is still vulnerable and when adults' claims are considered gospel.
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I think you missed the earlier point raised about calling your loved ones if you think have something good.
 
Jimy_Hills_Chin said:
Heaven is a morphine drip :drool:

Actually heaven is dipicted in Islam as having rivers of wine, honey and milk. Lots of Golden Grahams and cirrhosis of the liver then! On the plus side, I think that us men get more than one wife :)
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That kinda sucks for the women don't you think? Lead a good life and get into heaven only to find yourself as part of some blokes harem.
 
Red Hand Devil said:
Thats contradictory in its fullest form. Make your mind up for God's sake :rolleyes::smirk:

Religion has pro's & cons, but its a personal choice or a belief for those to decide. As much as its been rammed down peoples throats that God doesnt exist because there's no proof - the folk that beat that drum offer no proof that he doesnt exist. There's more people that believe in God than dont - so is the minority right & the majority wrong?

Having faith doesnt incline a person to be institutionalised in organised religion, what it does is give a person a belief that there's more to life than the elements all around us. I have faith / spirituality & love science too, but i most certainly would never ram my beliefs down someone's throats.

There's no harm in having a feeling / belief, that there's more to life than what we see or feel. Whats not to like about believing that when you die you'll be reunited with loved one's for an eternity. No-one will ever know until that day comes, but i believe that i will, like the majority of people throughout the world!

Each to their own & respect people's positive outlook on life & the afterlife - if they choose to believe there's one. That should be the standard practice, sadly it isnt though!
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It's not a contradiction at all. And once again, you're repeating the myth that atheists are out to prove god doesn't exist. As for your minority and majority point, are you honestly saying you can't think of an example throughout history that's proven to be the case?
 
Red Hand Devil said:
Thats contradictory in its fullest form. Make your mind up for God's sake :rolleyes::smirk:

Religion has pro's & cons, but its a personal choice or a belief for those to decide. As much as its been rammed down peoples throats that God doesnt exist because there's no proof - the folk that beat that drum offer no proof that he doesnt exist. There's more people that believe in God than dont - so is the minority right & the majority wrong?
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How is it contradictory ? If you let people decide by themselves, and you teach them how to make decisions based on rationality and proofs, they will more than likely not follow religions. If you teach a child the theory of evolution, he/she will more than likely reject religions that claim that God created people from clay and brought them to Earth from Heaven. If you teach a child that it is okay to answer "I don't know" to some question because science does not have the answers now, he/she will more than likely not try to seek ready-made answers found in religions. Teach children to think rationally and only accept scientific proofs and your religion will naturally become weaker.

As for your argument about minority and majority : The majority believed in geocentrism in the XVIth century despite a minority claiming otherwise, does it mean that they were right ?

Having faith doesnt incline a person to be institutionalised in organised religion, what it does is give a person a belief that there's more to life than the elements all around us. I have faith / spirituality & love science too, but i most certainly would never ram my beliefs down someone's throats.
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I agree with you there. As long as religion is kept in the private sphere, I don't see any problem with it. It does not make it true though. However, it would prevent children from blindly following the beliefs of their elders which would deprive them from their right to develop their own opinions.

There's no harm in having a feeling / belief, that there's more to life than what we see or feel. Whats not to like about believing that when you die you'll be reunited with loved one's for an eternity. No-one will ever know until that day comes, but i believe that i will, like the majority of people throughout the world!

Each to their own & respect people's positive outlook on life & the afterlife - if they choose to believe there's one. That should be the standard practice, sadly it isnt though!
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Again, it is very recomforting to believe that when you die you'll be reunited with loved one's for an eternity, it does not make it true though. If it can make you happy and reassure you, fine ! No one will oblige you to think otherwise. However, there are people who only accept things that are scientifically proven and so will not make extra assumptions about things they don't know and this is what Abrahamic religions have a problem with.
 
Speaking of religion, who else has issues with universities such as Liberty teaching creationism and such mythology/pseudo-science under the guise of real science?

Religious folks in this thread - your thoughts too please.

 
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