Would you consider those moral principles to be absolute or infallible?
Religion, what's the point?
- Thread starter TheRedFlag
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Why does god care what we do?
Which ones you mean? The clear ones that are mentioned in the Quran, yes. I think those are the right ones that I should follow.
Hm. THat's interesting. So would you say you reflect and examine on it before subscribing to them or do you just follow them just because it is posited by God? Sorry that I took this discussion off the rails, I'm just thinking out loud. I don't think socialization is a moral justification for actions. I think morality and ethics presupposes mind changing, dialogue, and revision and to commit to principles that are categorically infallible for all ages is questionable.
Ermm, ok but my question was about the relation between family members who have different beliefs.
Let's cut to the chase. Would it sit right with you if your parents were to be judged by your god for simply not believing in him even though you know they were good people their whole life?
What's this foolishness about Pope JP performing two miracles after he died? What amazes me is that the news are reporting this like it's some factual newsworthy story instead of treating it like the nonsensical fairy tale undeserving of our attention that it really is.
I heard about him curing someone from Parkinson's disease as one of his miracles on BBC Radio. It was reported as a serious news story. Absolutely crazy.
That's an entirely subjective statement.
That's pretty insane.
Catholic worship of JP II is reaching new levels. I'd say that Muslim theologians are right in classifying Catholicism as polytheistic, and I think anyone who's ever visited the Vatican will see this. You're more likely to see images of JPII or the so called Virgin Mary than you are Jesus. Soon they'll be seeing JP's face in their toast.
I went to the Vatican a few years ago and my mate Lewis and I visited St Peter's and played a game of 'Who Can Say "God's a cnut" The Loudest?'. We were very drunk.
Please expand on this, I'm genuinely interested in knowing how you've managed to draw that conclusion.
If it was written as comedy fiction you wouldn't believe it.
You're not supposed to believe fiction.
The first woman is a nun...
Of all the senseless silliness that you have spouted this has to be the most arrogant and offensive bit of gibberish in your arsenal of swill to date. Well done. Have a biscuit.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-22958512
This is where it leads when you fix your morality to higher authority. It's inherently dangerous.
This is where it leads when you fix your morality to higher authority. It's inherently dangerous.
Damn you Moriaty.
If JP is made a saint, will my 12" Vinyl LP of his speech in Ireland be worth more?
yes
Recording sound is the devil's work.
About time the devil's work paid off. Anyone got any bids before I let the world in on my prize? The recorded voice of an actual miracle working saint, roll up roll up, all the believers, roll up.
True. Certain things one must subscribe to such as prayer, fasting etc.
Islam gives you boundaries so it's not just a matter of dos and don'ts. There are areas where one is asked to put 'trust' and not 'blind faith' (both have different effects on mental development). This is based on the statement from God that He won't ask anything from us unless we are capable of achieving it or coping with it - fasting is an example of that. To the non-subscriber this may appear restrictive but it has good benefits be it spiritual, physiological, psychological and sociological.
There are many worldly concepts that are open for pondering and study with some boundaries (eg Usury in economics). If you just consider the first verses that were revealed, they included two critical instructions that are important for 'human' learning... to Read and Write. I think they are important for 'advancement' and how it meets one criteria for 'all ages'.
Another indication is: the prophet said - in every generation there will come people to renew this religion. This is a clear indication that its worldly ideas and matters are renewable and flexible to fit and be inline with people's 'new found' knowledge/situation/environment.
This is a short video that talks about Fasting and which circumstances where it's OK not to fast.
Muslims believe that Qur'an is miraculous by its nature in being a revealed text from God, and that similar texts cannot be written by human endeavor.
Well that's quite clearly a load of pish.
Well that's quite clearly a load of pish.
The fact Muslims believe this is why we cannot have an 'open' discussion on their faith.
all the pity.
all the pity.
Saw this posted on FB today...
What was the "Big Bang"?
Then the channels of the sea were seen, The foundations of the world were uncovered At Your rebuke, O Lord, At the BLAST of the breath of Your nostrils. (Psalms 18:15 NKJV)
What was the "Big Bang"?
Then the channels of the sea were seen, The foundations of the world were uncovered At Your rebuke, O Lord, At the BLAST of the breath of Your nostrils. (Psalms 18:15 NKJV)
Well you're clearly a complete moron. Every post you make further exemplifies pseudo-intellect on a grounding of ignorance and arrogance.
What would you like to discuss?
That it is possible the Quran is not miraculous text.
OK, on what grounds are you basing this possibility?
Is having faith a primitive belief?
Because I have lived in both societies, and I'm sure if you have, you'll be able to tell the difference as well.
However, I'm not surprised that you all jumped on this statement, while leaving out the most important parts of the discussion.. I'm pretty sure you realize what does it mean when somebody try to hang to a marginal statement that wasn't even part of the original discussion, while neglecting all the important parts that are actually relevant to the discussion.
Besides, we've already established that your "ridiculing" attempts are merely intended to "get back at those who teach their children religion".. "It's your only weapon".. Even though you claim that religious people are the ones who are intolerant, it's pretty clear who is intolerant, and who is incapable of having a calm logical debate.
Do you know that the Quran has challenged the people of that time to come up with something like it, or even part of it, but they failed? Why do you think they failed? And why did Mohammad succeed?
Wow. Fundamentalist Muslims are even dumber than fundamentalist Christians. That's quite an achievement.
The problem that happened here is that you rushed the discussion.. You weren't patient enough to follow the full transition from believing that there must be a God, to "I follow the morals mentioned in the Quran"..
I think the problem is that most people don't care about God. They don't care about the "afterlife". They don't give it a serious thought.. Their priority is how anything is going to affect their life. This life. If they don't like how it is going to affect their life, then the hell with the whole thing.. "I'm just gonna turn my back to the "possibility" that there is a "God", and that there is an "afterlife", where I will be punished or rewarded for my deeds, and take the easier way (in life) by trying to convince myself: well, God should have tried harder to convince me. If he exists, then it's his problem not mine, and (he's a c*nt)".
Anyway..
No. There are morals that are absolute, IMO. Regardless of time or place. Justice is good, at all time, and in all places. It's not "relative". It's an "absolute" good.
But before we go ahead, to keep this discussion objective and logical.. Let's try to make a point, or a conclusion here.. If you don't believe in absolute morality, do you think then that morality could be considered as a reason to prove that a religion is wrong? Do you think that we can use morality (and differences in morality) to prove that a religion is wrong?
Before I answer the question, let me ask you first, why do they have to be my parents? Does it make any difference in the debate (objectively) if those were not my parents, but rather two strangers? Do you think if my answer was in a big part affected by the fact that they're my parents, and the emotion that get involved in a situation like this, do you think that would help me make a better objective judgement or a worse one?
Are you looking for an objective answer, a logical answer, or an answer that's primarily motivated by my love to my parents, rather than looking at the situation objectively?
Of course, in an objective discussion, my answer to this question should be the same, if those were my parent or not..
Now, let's re-phrase the question: Would it sit right with me if somebody who doesn't believe in God, but does "everything right, according to me" would go to hell?
First of all, I can't judge what's "right" about everything. If I can, then I'm technically "God".. So the fact that I agree about something, doesn't necessarily mean that it's right.. (Notice here that I'm not talking about morality, but rather the deeds. Most people agree on many moral values, but they seem to differ (hugely) in how they interpret those morals. Even a thief sometimes argues that he's merely applying "justice", and it's his right to steal that money...etc.). So the first point is that I can't appoint myself as the superior judge who can say who is doing the right things and who is doing the wrong things.
Second, the test for the people differ among the people. There is an even tougher question may be, which is: how about the people who are crazy, or have mental retardation problems? The answer for this question, which I found pretty logical and fair is: "God does not place a burden on a soul greater than it can bear.", which means not all people will be judged in the same way.. When somebody gives a poor man $5 when he owns a hundred million dollars, can't be compared to somebody who gives $5 when all what he owns is $100.
Now how does this relate to your question.. Let me ask you a question.. When was the last time you saw somebody say "I do more wrong things than right things. I'm a bad person"? Almost everybody considers himself as "doing all the right things", but if you examine it, you'd see actually that the "good" that he's doing might be in fact pretty insignificant compared to other bad things he considers "insignificant". Yes you don't steal, but you've never lived three days without eating a thing, and still didn't steal.. That's a much easier "I don't steal" for you, so don't expect that your real tests will be about "stealing", and "stealing" won't be among that things that you're going to be judged based on, or the things that will show the real "you".
Third, believing in God is not only about what you say.. It's mentioned many times in the Quran that what's more important than what you say, is what you do, and what's more important than what you do is what's in your heart.. So who knows. May be if your heart is really that clean, but never got a real chance (not out of your laziness or your stubbornness) to know about religions, or Islam specifically, then you might still be a Muslim even if you don't "say the magic words".. Do you know that Abraham was a Muslim (mentioned in the Quran)? How can he be a Muslim and Mohammad was not even born? Certainly Islam is more than just words you repeat, so who knows? May be those people will end up in heaven..
Jesus, Danny... Can you just apply the question to your situation? I don't want to know about all the objective stuff, just your honest opinion.
Would it sit right with you if your parents went to hell for not believing in your god?
Who am I kidding anyway, it's not like you will admit that it would be wrong or anything based on that sole reason.
Especially not to us in here, even though I bet this subject has been in your head many times, if you love your parents that is offcourse...
So stop trying to dodge the question and be honest.
Would it sit right with you if your parents went to hell for not believing in your god?
Who am I kidding anyway, it's not like you will admit that it would be wrong or anything based on that sole reason.
Especially not to us in here, even though I bet this subject has been in your head many times, if you love your parents that is offcourse...
So stop trying to dodge the question and be honest.
I personally don't like to judge someone when they are alive let alone when they are dead. However we are asked to judge by the externals not the internals (that's for God).
No it wouldn't sit right but it depends on few things. If they were good people they'll be ok, God willing, and one would 'feel' it. It's like you know there are in a good place. Because there are maybe some connection of some sort. Be a kin or a good act of kindness and so on. The most repeated God's attributes in the Quran are The Most Gracious and The Most Merciful. So, one is always inclined towards Mercy.
The 'judgement' on based on certain characteristics like if they were called to good and they arrogantly reject it and set out to do bad things (eg. Mohammad's tribe). And someone like hitler. With this guy, even though I don't like to judge, I hope he goes to Hell.
I hope this give you an idea.
I'm not dodging the question. I answered it. I answered you pretty clearly actually. I told you that my parents are no different from any other person, and I told you how I see it when it comes to any person. You are dodging my question.. Why do they have to be my parents?
About the bolded part, why would it be "wrong"? Because they're my parents, and I love them, so they can't go to hell? What kind of logic is that?!
All I believe in is that if God who has created the whole universe will be the one who is going to make the judgement, then he's definitely going to be more capable of being fair to everybody, than you and me. One of the logical reasons for me to think that is his superior knowledge.. He created the whole universe (if we assume that he did it), and you and I are still struggling to understand 1% of what his creation is all about. I'm pretty sure he's in a better position to make a better judgement than you and me.. So no, I will not complain, even though it might hurt me now to think that parents might be going to hell, as much as it hurts me to think that I myself could be going to hell..