For me it was the understanding of how vast this universe is. And how long it has elapsed since the creation of Earth. And now many transformations happened during Evolution. A plan for all that makes no sense. It's like having a plan to travel from London to Oxford, going through Amazonis Planitia on Mars.
Religion, what's the point?
- Thread starter TheRedFlag
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For me it was the understanding of how vast this universe is. And how long it has elapsed since the creation of Earth. And now many transformations happened during Evolution. A plan for all that makes no sense. It's like having a plan to travel from London to Oxford, going through Amazonis Planitia on Mars.
Even then… I realized that if that bad thing is part of “the plan” then who am I, a human, to tell an omni-everything being that they’ve got the plan wrong? At that point I realized it just didn’t make much sense. I understand prayer as a form of worship and as a form of penitence, just not as a form of asking for help.
Oh definitely. I would not personally endorse the whole “he’s got a plan” thing anyway. I look at the fact that Uvalde parents had to have DNA swabs to ID their kids and think “hmmm… some plan right?”
Placebo prayers? Is that when you cross your fingers when you put your hands together?
A god in need is a god indeed
A god with weed is better
A god in need is a god indeed
A god with weed is better
More likely someone being told they’re being prayed for when in fact they’re not.
Oh right, yeah that makes way more sense.
TBH I don't understand it at all.
Hope.
Simple as that really.
Simple as that really.
What if intercessory prayers are part of the plan/scenario? Particularly in the context of predeterminism.
So how vast is it exactly?
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We know how vast the observable universe is.
Scientific estimates put the size of the universe as at least 250 times the size of the observable universe.
Hmmm, estimates. So whats it expanding into? Just want to be sure that we've got all our certainties lined up.
Scientific estimates based on mathematics and observations from the observable universe.
https://www.space.com/24073-how-big-is-the-universe.html
Here is a summary of the study: https://www.technologyreview.com/20...igger-than-visible-universe-say-cosmologists/
On the expansion of space-time:
A more detailed discussion on why the language of expansion can be misleading:
The closest star is 40,208,000,000,000 km away.
There are 200,000,000,000 stars in this galaxy.
There are 2,000,000,000,000 galaxies.
Try to multiply those two numbers.
All that for Earth to exist and produce humans after 4,500,000,000 years? Doesn't make sense.
I get it, but as we stand today it's still all very clever speculation that may well end up being fact or we'll need to accept that our primate brain will never get the answers we crave.
No it doesn't, which is why I believe that there are an infinite number of other alien civilisations out there, with many still battling with the question why are they here, and why is here even here.
Never ends.
the first thing that came to mind about prayers not working.George Carlin had an excellent segment on this.
Think it was in Nip/Tuck when the one lead character mentioned "tell that to the kid being sodomized by his uncle" something along those lines. When someone pulls this plan card on me I will often throw in the "rape" and "molestation" with a "how does that fit in this intelligent plan?"
This is kind of where I am at as well. If prayer "works" then that leads to the following conclusions:
1. There is no plan as all things are adjustable by prayer.
2. If things are adjustable by prayer that must mean that either the amount of, or quality of, prayer must be a factor.
3. If this is the case then God must be a needy SOB.
4. This flies directly against the central dogma that God loves all of us equally.
Basically I see prayer as a means of self healing. It is a way of condensing and reflecting on the issues in your life and addressing them instead of burying them. I can not reconcile the idea of a God that makes decisions on the basis of who is the best hype man with what I believe.
For me, prayer is a totally personal thing. I know your arguments make sense from your standpoint but for many logic isn't the overriding factor in all this. I don't believe that we're just a collection of atoms and gibbering organs that could have ended up being moon rock if it wasn't just for luck. Perhaps there's a chauvinism in that, but equally the same could be said of those here who are adamant that existence is predicated on modelling, maths and totally unsubstantiated, human theories. Or that G-d needs to operate by the laws and moralities you suggest, otherwise there is no G-d.
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You’re first sentence is in line with what I was getting at, but the rest is confusing. Apologies, but I have read it a few times and I am unsure as to what your point was (I am not trying to be an ass, I truly don't).
Essentially that I believe that there is a G-d, a grand design (and we can all agree in it's wonderfully 'tuned') and yes, logic got me to this place of faith. I am sure that you'll mock me for such cognitive dissonance, but that's the way I roll. I don't think faith and science are mutually exclusive at all. By the same token, I love science and our innate thirst for answers, and even if we find them all, that only emboldens the idea of a creator. Hope I'm making some sort of sense today.
That's a wild assumption considering I posted these previously:
Always nice to sneak up on people once and a while I guess
Anyways, it is something I can't really explain well in words, but I will give it a go.
There have been many times over the years I have doubted my faith, but no time more so than when I was in graduate school and dealt for the first time with people outside my sheltered Catholic community bubble. When I was the only religious person in my lab and was mocked, when I showed up on Ash Wednesday to journal club and the professor in charge told me my face was dirty, when a potential employer (as a post doc) informed me he expected me to work on Sundays as it was a better alternative to wasting time in church, etc. Each time the criticism was framed as "how can we take you seriously as a scientist if you believe in this shit". So why have I always returned to a position of faith?
First let me address the science side. As someone who devoted a decade to bench science and now another decade to enabling scientists I would say a good deal of my effort, energy, and time has been in the service of the pursuit of answers. I know that if I work hard and smart enough at determining a proteins function I will get there. Work further and I will figure out the MOA. Work further and I can find the active domains of the protein itself. And so on. The point is that questions yield answers but also more questions and I know with 100% certainty there is always an answer to find. I guess you could say I have faith the answer exists.
So how does this mesh with belief in what many on here would argue is unanswerable? The answer is simple. It doesn't. Well, at least not in an objective, rational way. That's the thing though, as humans we are at our core irrational beings trying to find relevance and meaning in the world around us. For me I find that meaning in my faith. I find peace there when everything else is falling apart. During the worst times in my life I have had an anchor that keeps me from making destructive choices and in other times a compass that directs me. Others may scoff and say that all these things can be found outside Christianity or faith in general, and they would be right. They can be found everywhere, but for me I found them in my belief in God and I know with the same certainty I mentioned above that for me I have found the right choice.
We are all people of faith, whether that be in faith in science, faith in God, or faith in the flying spaghetti monster. None of us know everything. I know feck all about aeronautical engineering, but I get on a planes having faith that the engineers at Boeing (usually) know what they are doing. It is why I will never understand those who take glee in mocking people of faith who go about their faith quietly or speak with disdain and use terms like "pity" and "sorrow".
Anyways that is my rambling and likely ineffective attempt at putting feelings down on paper (silicon?).
Why do you write G-d.
Surly if you believe in a creator, you would believe in it enough to write his/her/its normally used name of God.
Sorry, new to the thread but appreciate you opinion, which I agree with.
It's Jewish law so as not to desecrate His name in full.
Like Jehova?
My teachings taken out of context
To meet the agendas of others
Interpretations taken too many different ways
And hidden meanings discovered
Religion became a tool
For the weak to control the strong
With all these new morals and ethics
Survival of the fittest was gone
No longer could the biggest man
Simply take whatever he needed
Cause damnation was the price
If certain rules were not heeded
To meet the agendas of others
Interpretations taken too many different ways
And hidden meanings discovered
Religion became a tool
For the weak to control the strong
With all these new morals and ethics
Survival of the fittest was gone
No longer could the biggest man
Simply take whatever he needed
Cause damnation was the price
If certain rules were not heeded
Was really just making the life of Brian reference
OK. Great film too.
Learn something every day. And I just have. Thank you.
Your welcome.
Do you also not desecrate contractions in full?
You probably already have a quite deeply rooted and well thought through opinion about it but if I may, I'd like to point you to these articles which I think neatly explain the pertinence of intercessory prayers.
tl;dr I think intercession helps the person praying to grow closer to God's heart as they pray unselfishly and with love for others. It's about being concerned about others, not only ourselves and also opening up our hearts to seek from God how we can be of help beyond praying, if at all. It's important to realise that the Biblical command for intercession does not only concern family and friends but also people who don't even know you or know you are praying for them and extends to enemies, those who forsake you and those who persecute you. Personally, I have realised that when intercession is done sincerely for the latter cases it usually brings about reconciliation and peace as the person praying develops a forgiving heart. Probably won't convince you but I hope it at least explains why some find it important, despite "evidence" of its ineffectiveness.
That was a refreshing post that I didn't expect to see on this thread.
It's all perspective though. Debating religion if both sides are not atheist or religious has always seemed pointless to me.
The core question is do you believe in God or not. If you don't then anything I say will be contradicted so there's no argument to be had.
If scientists revise those estimates down to 2,250,000,000 years we have to be twice as likely to believe in God.