Religion, what's the point?

Carolina Red said:
To be fair to Paul, that epistle was very likely written under a pseudonym by a forger. It contradicts with other Pauline statements about women in other undisputed epistles.
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It's not that I have any true depth of doubt of Paul himself, just as I said some thing that doesn't match up. I remember watching some documentary years ago and it just occurred to me that as his letters are written some would very much satisfy Roman society. I don't have any real arguments but there has to have been something like that going on.
 
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ChaddyP said:
You'd be lucky if 10 percent of It were true.


Imagine if 100 years into the future 70 people took trumps tweets as record of what happened in the world, spun it so it matched thier agenda, translated it into swahili, then into mandarin then summarised it. Then 4 of the 70 people were randomly chosen by a publisher to add to their collection of other random summarisations of the 21st century, and then boom that's your reliable record of 2013 to 2020.
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Yeah, it's all supposition and no-one has any true number. And it wasn't Mandarin but an Alemannic Dialect used. Official Details are always going to be sketchy.
 
Roane said:
As usual in these discussions I'm getting posts left right and centre from different folk. Makes it difficult to have a decent conversation as I'm having to reply to a different set of responses/questions.

It's the last few days of Ramadhan and I am pressed for time. So I will bow out for now.

@Wibble thanks for the discussion and not getting aggressive and being insulting. I will carry on with you, if you wish, at a later date.

@Dve same with yourself. If you wish also. The war notion is certainly interesting, albeit I think misinformed and wrong. But again more later.

Timing I can't say for certain. Just learned my cousin's 14 year old has been put on life support. He had leukaemia and had a transplant that hasn't worked. My auntie, said cousins mum, on her way out too so tough times ahead for the family.
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Terrible news. I hope your cousin's kid recovers soon. :(
 
Deery said:
Yeah that’s more or less exactly how I feel also and that’s actually how we taught to interpret the gospels as young as children, it’s been written by many different authors over many different years but the fundamental concept is to be good as you say.

I find atheists to be a little like vegans.
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I don't care what people believe. It only really annoys me when religion forces itself on me e.g. informs government decisions or is compulsory in schools. Religious freedom should be a given (within legal bounds) but also should a private or individual thing on your own time.

My best mate is an Anglican vicar it may surprise you to know. He is a cool vicar but .....
 
oates said:
Yes I believe in that also.

I find it a bit strange that atheists think it's clever to catch Christians out with texts that have been copied, translated, re-written to make them say what the monks, bishops and popes wanted them to say over 2,000 odd years. I don't have to have read 99.99% of the Bible. I only need to have faith in a few simple sentences and the things I see around me.

We all come to Christ from different directions, we all use the one simple path. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. Love one another.
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Although I'd say that this mainly happens when engaging with Christians who quote a bible passage that suits there point as an absolute incontrovertible truth directly from the word of their God.
 
Deery said:
I’m not really sure about keeping them out or letting them in, but I’d expect them to be at the back of the queue.
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Give us time to get over the surprise while we queue ;)

I for one will be a little miffed if this happens.
 
Carolina Red said:
Most satanists are atheists... they don't believe in any supernatural being. The use of satan is symbolic, not literal. The Church of Satan's website actually says, "Satan to us is a symbol of pride, liberty and individualism, and it serves as an external metaphorical projection of our highest personal potential. We do not believe in Satan as a being or person.”

Edit: also, the Satanic Temple states on its website, “we do not promote a belief in a personal Satan. To embrace the name Satan is to embrace rational inquiry removed from supernaturalism and archaic tradition-based superstitions.”
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I guess the confusing thing is that this makes them not actual satanists.

Hello is this the Paedo Society?
Yes.
Where are the kids?
What are you talking about you disgusting pervert? We are a chess club.
:)
 
Wibble said:
I guess the confusing thing is that this makes them not actual satanists.

Hello is this the Paedo Society?
Yes.
Where are the kids?
What are you talking about you disgusting pervert? We are a chess club.
:)
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I mean… modern mainstream satanism has been atheistic since LeVay started the Church of Satan. That obviously doesn’t fit in with the ideas of folks like 1600s witch hunters, but a lot of modern Christianity doesn’t fit in with what the Pope, Luther, Calvin, etc. were saying back then either.
 
oates said:
Still struggling with the Shingles but then, that's not what you meant is it? :)

I'm getting a good laugh out of this discussion though.
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Carolina Red said:
Oh dear. I've heard shingles are awful. Definitely gonna try and get the vaccine for that when the time comes.
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My better half is struggling with it. So painful that it is often hard to sleep.

I was surprised that there was a shingles vaccine, separate to the chickenpox vaccine and not a little annoyed to find it isn't covered by our PBS, so it costs $600. No wonder almost nobody gets it.
 
Carolina Red said:
I mean… modern mainstream satanism has been atheistic since LeVay started the Church of Satan. That obviously doesn’t fit in with the ideas of folks like 1600s witch hunters, but a lot of modern Christianity doesn’t fit in with what the Pope, Luther, Calvin, etc. were saying back then either.
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I know. I was just amusing myself.
 
Wibble said:
Although I'd say that this mainly happens when engaging with Christians who quote a bible passage that suits there point as an absolute incontrovertible truth directly from the word of their God.
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In my experience on this thread there has been a fair usage policy. :)
 
Wibble said:
My better half is struggling with it. So painful that it is often hard to sleep.

I was surprised that there was a shingles vaccine, separate to the chickenpox vaccine and not a little annoyed to find it isn't covered by our PBS, so it costs $600. No wonder almost nobody gets it.
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Been trying to sleep for the last 3 hours and have given up now. Shingles is brought on by stress I'm told, if you've had Chicken Pox as a child. £600 would stress me just a little too.
 
Wibble said:
Although I'd say that this mainly happens when engaging with Christians who quote a bible passage that suits there point as an absolute incontrovertible truth directly from the word of their God.
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I’d say the part of the debate about biblical inerrancy has to be included in the discussion though, since inerrancy has been a belief of Christianity since at least Augustine.

There is now a clear schism regarding inerrancy between American and British evangelicals, for instance… but the fact of the matter is that the American evangelical that holds fast to the inerrancy belief is closer to the Christianity of St. Augustine than the Catholic or British Evangelical who doesn’t.

Beyond that, for Christians who reject inerrancy, the question I have is that if the Bible, the authoritative account of god on earth, isn’t actually what it says it is, and hasn’t been protected by this omnipotent god from being contaminated, then why should I believe it to be any different than the mythologies of any of the other ancient peoples of the time period?
 
Carolina Red said:
I’d say the part of the debate about biblical inerrancy has to be included in the discussion though, since inerrancy has been a belief of Christianity since at least Augustine.

There is now a clear schism regarding inerrancy between American and British evangelicals, for instance… but the fact of the matter is that the American evangelical that holds fast to the inerrancy belief is closer to the Christianity of St. Augustine than the Catholic or British Evangelical who doesn’t.

Beyond that, for Christians who reject inerrancy, the question I have is that if the Bible, the authoritative account of god on earth, isn’t actually what it says it is, and hasn’t been protected by this omnipotent god from being contaminated, then why should I believe it to be any different than the mythologies of any of the other ancient peoples of the time period?
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The short answer is that you do not have to believe in the Bible to be a follower of Christ. Faith is all that has ever been asked that you believe in him and his instructions to follow him. Since I brought the topic up I think I should answer and for the reasons given the faith required to believe in two short sentences either read in the Bible or repeated by his followers for around 2000 years can either be accepted or not but nobody is under any obligation to try to prove which verses you should choose for yourself. No-one is trying to ram it down your throat. :lol:
 
oates said:
The short answer is that you do not have to believe in the Bible to be a follower of Christ.
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I’m sorry, but that makes absolutely no sense, considering the Bible is the record of Jesus being the son of god. If you don’t believe the Bible, what do you base any belief about Jesus on?
 
Carolina Red said:
I’m sorry, but that makes absolutely no sense, considering the Bible is the record of Jesus being the son of god. If you don’t believe the Bible, what do you base any belief about Jesus on?
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I'm sorry too because you, the one who has no faith or belief in Christ is trying to tell me how to come to believe in Christ. That's something quite wacky and turned upside down because you must have heard someone say that the only way to come to Christ is through the Bible to believe so much in what you are claiming. Either you know your stuff or you are stepping over the line just a bit, which is quite comical. Telling the Christian between us what and how to believe.

As I said, our belief and faith is in Christ not the Bible, it doesn't matter how we come to have faith in him, so long as we do. No-one to my mind has ever told me or any christian I have talked to about it that I must believe in the Bible to be a Christian. Now, you as an atheist appear to be trying to ram something down my throat which doesn't appear to be fair considering the discussions I've had on this thread in the past.

You may think you know of a type of Christian who has told you that you must believe on the Bible perhaps, yes, surely that is where the error comes from. It couldn't be that you understand my faith more than I do. ;)
 
Something that strikes me about non-Catholic churches is the reading of the bible. That thing you see in the movies of someone suddenly quoting a passage.
I would even swear that politicians do it quite often and surprisingly very often the old testament.
Out of curiosity for non-Catholics, how did you learn about Jesus being kids?
Here if children are going to make their first communion they go one day a week to Catechism, for two or three years. And years later they continue with Confirmation.

My son goes to religion in secondary school and it is more or less the same. Different passages from the life of Jesus depending on the holiday and the possible moral or explanation.
The old testament is pretty much skipped except for Genesis and Moses.
Even I lived with a priest for many years and he did not expressly encouraged me to read it. He would talk to me more about saints, their martyrdom and how they found God.
 
carvajal said:
Something that strikes me about non-Catholic churches is the reading of the bible. That thing you see in the movies of someone suddenly quoting a passage.
I would even swear that politicians do it quite often and surprisingly very often the old testament.
Out of curiosity for non-Catholics, how did you learn about Jesus being kids?
Here if children are going to make their first communion they go one day a week to Catechism, for two or three years. And years later they continue with Confirmation.

My son goes to religion in secondary school and it is more or less the same. Different passages from the life of Jesus depending on the holiday and the possible moral or explanation.
The old testament is pretty much skipped except for Genesis and Moses.
Even I lived with a priest for many years and he did not expressly encouraged me to read it. He would talk to me more about saints, their martyrdom and how they found God.
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If I can say first that I think you might get a fair number of comments or strength of comment over Religious Faith - Catholic Faith being taught in School, I don't for one agree with it, in the first place like politics it shouldn't be taught to children in school in the form of lessons, it gains too much authority when it should be freely asked about.

Since @Moby is asking me a similar question I'll briefly say that I first learnt about Jesus through kind people who supported myself and my mother through a difficult part of my life, I suppose my mothers too. One of them told stories through song, I first heard about Christ on Sundays walking with the Salvation Army Band through London and before I could read the Bible.
 
oates said:
Since @Moby is asking me a similar question I'll briefly say that I first learnt about Jesus through kind people who supported myself and my mother through a difficult part of my life, one of them told stories through song, I first heard about Christ on Sundays walking with the Salvation Army Band through London and before I could read the Bible.
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But all those people would have learnt about Jesus through the bible itself?
 
oates said:
I'm sorry too because you, the one who has no faith or belief in Christ is trying to tell me how to come to believe in Christ. That's something quite wacky and turned upside down
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Well, it’s rather wacky and upside down to hear that the book that talks about Jesus being the son of god isn’t required reading for believing in Jesus being the son of god.

I’d like to point out, I was raised a Christian and attended a Christian university that required us to take classes on the Bible. This isn’t just a random atheist attack here… I’ve read the book more than once.
 
Moby said:
But all those people would have learnt about Jesus through the bible itself?
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Maybe they'd learn through Sunday services, or Sunday School. Maybe from School, I had to attend RE. I can't remember ever reading from the Bible up until I was a young adult, didn't even own one until I was 20 I think, certainly didn't read it then but everyone is different.
 
This is very similar to a conversation I had a couple years ago with a devout Southern Baptist who got very upset at me for pointing out that her fervent belief in free will isn’t well supported by a Bible that frequently references a key theme of predestination.
 
Carolina Red said:
Well, it’s rather wacky and upside down to hear that the book that talks about Jesus being the son of god isn’t required reading for believing in Jesus being the son of god.

I’d like to point out, I was raised a Christian and attended a Christian university that required us to take classes on the Bible. This isn’t just a random atheist attack here… I’ve read the book more than once.
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Well you've certainly learned your lesson for today. Best you don't try to shove it down anyone else's throat eh?

Weird American schools and colleges. We didn't have Bibles handed out to us in RE lessons in school. It didn't come into my Uni life at all. A Bible that is.
 
Carolina Red said:
This is very similar to a conversation I had a couple years ago with a devout Southern Baptist who got very upset at me for pointing out that her fervent belief in free will isn’t well supported by a Bible that frequently references a key theme of predestination.
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So you didn't learn the first time that the spoken word can be just as powerful. tut tut... :lol:
 
oates said:
Well you've certainly learned your lesson for today. Best you don't try to shove it down anyone else's throat eh?

Weird American schools and colleges. We didn't have Bibles handed out to us in RE lessons in school. It didn't come into my Uni life at all. A Bible that is.
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I didn’t care about having to take the classes. Hell, actually reading and studying the Bible is how I realized that there isn’t a Judeo-Christian god.
 
Carolina Red said:
I didn’t care about having to take the classes. Hell, actually reading and studying the Bible is how I realized that there isn’t a Judeo-Christian god.
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That's your choice to take that away from it, good job I don't put a lot of store in it for myself.
 
oates said:
If I can say first that I think you might get a fair number of comments or strength of comment over Religious Faith - Catholic Faith being taught in School, I don't for one agree with it, in the first place like politics it shouldn't be taught to children in school in the form of lessons, it gains too much authority when it should be freely asked about.

Since @Moby is asking me a similar question I'll briefly say that I first learnt about Jesus through kind people who supported myself and my mother through a difficult part of my life, I suppose my mothers too. One of them told stories through song, I first heard about Christ on Sundays walking with the Salvation Army Band through London and before I could read the Bible.
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You may be right about the subject at school although to be fair it is geared towards making murals and watching movies.
 
Carolina Red said:
Bud, the “ “ were a clue.

Sunday school lessons come from the Bible.
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Our Sunday School teacher read from the Bible on occasion but as I said, it isn't required that we believe in the Bible. I'm not a Biblian.
 
oates said:
That's your choice to take that away from it, good job I don't put a lot of store in it for myself.
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Yeah, except the whole “this wandering preacher was the son of a deity” bit.

What you base that belief on, without scripture, is beyond me… Or any Christian theologian of the last 15 odd centuries.
 
Carolina Red said:
Yeah, except the whole “this wandering preacher was the son of a deity” bit.

What you base that belief on, without scripture, is beyond me… Or any Christian theologian of the last 15 odd centuries.
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Well it'll have to remain beyond you then sunshine :lol: It's not my place to tell you to read it, not yours either. Maybe you need to calm down a bit?
 
oates said:
Well it'll have to remain beyond you then sunshine :lol: It's not my place to tell you to read it, not yours either. Maybe you need to calm down a bit?
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I’m perfectly calm, Oates. I’m just amused that one can be a “Christian” and discount the entire book that being a “Christian” is based on.

You are simply coming across exactly like many of the evangelical types that live in the US who strongly believe they’re a Christian but can’t actually tell you what that means.
 
oates said:
Maybe they'd learn through Sunday services, or Sunday School. Maybe from School, I had to attend RE. I can't remember ever reading from the Bible up until I was a young adult, didn't even own one until I was 20 I think, certainly didn't read it then but everyone is different.
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Majority of religious people don't touch their texts for most of their lives yet know everything that is in them, which is from their family or community or media or whatever, but originally this entire knowledge, the concept of god's existence and everything else started from those texts. That's literally the source of any religious concept.
 
Carolina Red said:
I’m perfectly calm, Oates. I’m just amused that one can be a “Christian” and discount the entire book that being a “Christian” is based on.

You are simply coming across exactly like many of the evangelical types that live in the US who strongly believe they’re a Christian but can’t actually tell you what that means.
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Oh you're being quite bizarre and aggressive now. I've told you what being a Christian is based on but you do seem to have a bit of a thing about teaching me how to believe in Christ, I think you're pretty cooked because that's the way you are coming across.

I wouldn't know what an American Evangelist is I'm afraid, I haven't asked you for any money yet have I? :lol:

Let's have a break, I wouldn't want you to blow a gasket or such like.
 
Moby said:
Majority of religious people don't touch their texts for most of their lives yet know everything that is in them, which is from their family or community or media or whatever, but originally this entire knowledge, the concept of god's existence and everything else started from those texts. That's literally the source of any religious concept.
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I relied on the word of mouth and the actions of others to come to know Christ for my own reasons which quite frankly aren't yours to judge or be quite so aggressive regarding. I honestly find it hysterical being taught how to have faith from the atheist section. :lol:
Carolina Red said:
Once again… are you okay?
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Don't come that CR, you're the one that is coming across as if you are about to pop a bypass. Now, reflect, have a breather, try and learn something and we can carry on later? ;)
 
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