Don't see anyone telling you how to have faith in anything. The simple thing being said is that the source of the knowledge that there's a god and everything related to them comes from the texts of each religion. The word of mouth also has the same source, where people who read these texts spread it around to those who can't be bothered to read those texts. That's generally referred to as preaching and it is the most common method how anyone initially acquires the concept of a god for the first time in their life, and then it's up to them whether to believe it or not. In short you would have never heard of Jesus, or there being something that is a god, or in of the ways to invest your faith into that concept if it weren't for the bible.
Religion, what's the point?
- Thread starter TheRedFlag
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Pointing out that you’re not making theological sense doesn’t equal being aggressive or not calm. It’s odd that you’d resort to that and then act weird when I ask if you’re okay.Don't come that CR, you're the one that is coming across as if you are about to pop a bypass. Now, reflect, have a breather, try and learn something and we can carry on later?
Exactly!
Well you obviously haven't read the thread from where the discussion began and have therefore failed to understand the discussion. I won't carry on until you have caught yourself up. No need to constantly repeat myself is there?
As I suggested, I'm going to give you a break, if you're not sensible enough to take it then I will.
Well you have a good one. Sorry about the shingles and hope that clears up soon for you.
It started with you saying that you believe in Jesus but not the bible, the source of the existence of Jesus.
Obviously there is a source, and gives us Jesus' message of love. Its principles are very clear.
But another different thing is to expect a contemporary book, perfectly polished
In any case, that is for someone who has not decided to believe or has not been able to find God. That's what apologetics is for, with huge amounts of material.
Of course a Christian can have concerns and study apologetics, archeology or any branch that helps, but it should be enough for him to find Jesus in his heart
I said this -
So you either didn't read the start of the discussion or have as much difficulty as I did comprehending the written word as a child.
My initial question remains the same - how do you or anyone ever acquire the knowledge that there is a concept known as God without religious texts such as bible? You are not born with that knowledge. It is transferred to you usually by people around you as you grow up who gathered it from these exact texts. Whether the version is original.or not isn't the issue because regardless of the version the very fundamental that there is a god will not exist if these texts did not define it.
You also said this
To which the response has been that if there's no bible, there's no Jesus.
Well of course you are wrong. The spoken word as well as the actions of a christian can spread the story of Jesus.
But yes I said the short answer to @Carolina Red 's previous post in particular is that we do not have to believe in the Bible to be a follower of Christ, and I still find it comical that the atheist thinks they know differently.
You have taken literally what Oates has said and my answer goes in that direction. Obviously there is a basis, a multitude of gospels that were added or excluded with or without reason, Nag Hammadi, Constantine but the basis of the message is clear.
Another thing is to try to analyze each verse and its literalness. A person who reads the Bible without counseling may believe the metaphors
How would you ever know that any words or actions relate to god or jesus in any way if it weren't for the bible? Without the texts you or anyone before you would never have gained the understanding that there is a concept of god, that there is a deeper meaning to our existence beyond what we can see or what you exactly just said - that there are words, actions and ways of life that help you lead down a certain deeper path. All these concepts are defined in religious texts, and in the case of christianity it is the bible. Without that you would never be aware that any action you took has a deeper correlation to god over and above the action itself.
Now normal religious people happily accept that these texts are god's creation, and how what is written in them is knowledge imparted by god and hence it is what they have to adhere to, in addition to only ever coming to know about the very existence of god through these texts but you seem to have taken some sort of a hipster religious person angle to this where you are disregarding the source of your entire belief. It is basically after only because of these texts you got to learn about god, jesus and what having faith in them means and why you should be doing it you want to go back in time and take out the meaningfulness of these texts. Someone mentioned predestination here I think and that is exactly what it sounds like.
No that is perfectly reasonable, and it is why like I said almost everyone first learns about faith through their family or community much before they get to know about these texts, and the required context is added at that very point in one's life. However at no point would any of the religions ever come to existence if they weren't defined in their respective texts from which people ever got to know about everything they believe in in the first place.
Again, I'm afraid you are quite wrong and haven't either understood the discussion being held or have the capacity to appreciate the concept. I honestly don't think you should worry about it.
Personally it's no big deal what your version of normal religion is. I'd have thought this quite clear since you yourself hold no religious faith and obviously while coming into contact with some element at some point take little to no knowledge away with you to be able to judge what would be normal or not
I was asked how I first came to know about God if it wasn't through a bible, I gave my answer literally because firstly that's usually how you like to argue and secondly because you would have no appreciation of my life at the time I first came to hear about Christ far less me being about to give you any personal details. All in all I think you'd be best leaving the topic as it is between us, let's face it, it's neither something you want to appreciate or have the capacity for from the way you dictate how I would come to be a follower of Christ, I can't be any more polite or friendly than that. All the best.
You wouldn't be a follower of Christ or know his name or know there is any concept such as a god or that there is a need to have faith in the concept to give your existence a greater meaning if it weren't for the bible. The statement you wrote was a generic one, not about your own personal life but about how in general a believer of Christ can possibly not believe the bible and in either case that isnt a possible scenario.
Again, this is old ground, we're just repeating ourselves. I can't be any more polite than point you towards the discussion from the beginning and see what you are missing. Knock yourself out, it's all there.
Sure let us know if you ever have any explanation of how one can be a Christian without the bible ever having been written.
Well, again you prove yourself wrong because that's not something I've said, only that we are not required to believe in the Bible but to believe in Christ but you have a nice long wait.
You let me know when you find that very special passage that says for a Christian to get into Heaven they must believe in the Bible, meanwhile I'll leave you with this -
Where did you find that text you quoted?Well, again you prove yourself wrong because that's not something I've said, only that we are not required to believe in the Bible but to believe in Christ but you have a nice long wait.
You let me know when you find that very special passage that says for a Christian to get into Heaven they must believe in the Bible, meanwhile I'll leave you with this -
I finded that from the finding place my man. Just for you since you live and breathe it.
That didn't answer my question.I finded that from the finding place my man. Just for you since you live and breathe it.
I found it in that finding place on the internet.
I thought you were taking a break?
Only from you sweets
Yet you tagged me. The weirdness continues.Only from you sweets
Yes, it is truly amazing how it seems to be lost in the weeds that the entire story of Christ is in the Bible.
@Roane - can you be a Muslim without believing in the Quran?
Just being polite, I wouldn't mention you in a sentence without tagging you. I'm sorry it has upset you, By all means go back to bed.
It's truly amazing that the way the two of you have phrased your questions has confused you so much when receiving the answers.
@Roane - are you a believer in Allah or known as a believer in the Quran?
Sure we have.
I’d just like to point out that atheists like Dr. Bart Ehrman and Dr. Francesca Stavrakopolou head the departments of religious studies at the University of North Carolina and the University of Exeter.
It’s almost like you don’t have to have a personal faith in something in order to study it.
It's almost as if you forget what I was saying right back at the beginning - which to be fair you seemed to understand at the time. Asking me how I could hear about Christ without reading the Bible is something very different, being known as a Christian and not a Biblian was pure bonus.
That was exactly the case for me. My mother used to send us to Sunday School in the afternoon to, in her words, get 5 minutes peace and quiet. And anyway, in the late 1950's, there was absolutely nothing to do on Sunday.
Sunday School was almost like a youth club. A bit of teaching about Jesus and a bit of general discussion.
And best of all, we were given a few pennies for the inevitable collection. We put one penny in the collection and bought a few sweets with the rest.
Those were the days eh...
I know what you posted. I also know when I asked… “if the Bible, the authoritative account of god on earth, isn’t actually what it says it is, and hasn’t been protected by this omnipotent god from being contaminated, then why should I believe it to be any different than the mythologies of any of the other ancient peoples of the time period?”
It's almost as if you forget what I was saying right back at the beginning - which to be fair you seemed to understand at the time. Asking me how I could hear about Christ without reading the Bible is something very different, being known as a Christian and not a Biblian was pure bonus.
You went on to say…
… which basically seems like you’re saying the whole rest of the book is disposable except 2 sentences… which, per said book, goes against the teachings of Jesus himself in the Sermon on the Mount.The short answer is that you do not have to believe in the Bible to be a follower of Christ. Faith is all that has ever been asked that you believe in him and his instructions to follow him. Since I brought the topic up I think I should answer and for the reasons given the faith required to believe in two short sentences either read in the Bible or repeated by his followers for around 2000 years can either be accepted or not but nobody is under any obligation to try to prove which verses you should choose for yourself. No-one is trying to ram it down your throat.
The Fulfillment of the Law
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.(W) 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.(X) 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands(Y) and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Nobody is discrediting the whole bible or the teachings of it, but there are many different versions written over many different times, the actual length of all the writings is fierce to think it hasn’t some inaccuracies would be silly even for the most convinced believer.
And for anyone coming back at me with well wasn’t it written by God himself, no it was interpreted by man from Gods visions.
And for anyone coming back at me with well wasn’t it written by God himself, no it was interpreted by man from Gods visions.
It's your interpretation on what to you I basically seem to say. Strictly speaking we aren't known for believing in the Bible but being believers in Christ. You dictating to me how I should become a Christian is just so laughable to me that you got flat factual language back. Look at you, you're quoting Professors who are atheists, whole reams of scripture and I'm saying to you when I was a little boy and first heard of Jesus it wasn't from a Bible, I wouldn't have known what a Bible was if you dropped it on my foot then. This incensed you and the Wum merchant even further. I haven't had a laugh like it in weeks.
You don't care what isn't your business to know far less understand about my personal life and why I couldn't even read Janet & John far less the Bible maybe until I was 12 years old and there's you, insisting as the atheist of the two of us how I should hear about God, Christ, the Holy Ghost and the choir of Angels when I first became aware of them from your pulpit who then labelled me an Evangelist ffs. What a wheeze.
I literally just quoted Jesus to you. If you can’t understand the point, maybe try arguing about the Sermon on the Mount with him.
You just get better and better, I'm rolling around on the sofa. You telling me I don't understand, so funny.
Yet someone else is the one wumming?