I'm hoping this is a joke?
Religion, what's the point?
- Thread starter TheRedFlag
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I'm hoping this is a joke?
Yes, I think everyone would prefer that. If freedom only means 'freedom to do bad things' then its pretty worthless.
Maybe even just a text to say, easy on lad.
Instead of seeing it as a baby getting punished, see it as a soul getting its due and the next life being the one in which this occurs.
However it's also totally open to being disputed.
A system that makes little sense if you can't remember what you're even being punished for.
Science is not.
We have free will, but it's not without consequence. We need to be told what's right and what's wrong because as humans we don't know any better - I'm not talking about things like be nice to people and don't steal or kill etc. I'm talking about being attached to the world and materialistic things, being egotistical etc. We all fall into these traps whether we realise it or not.
Again, all you will be judged by are your actions and thoughts. But the vast majority of humans aren't inherently able to know what is good enough.
Apologies, I misread the Q. When it comes to something not directly affecting you, it becomes very complex and is not simple. Every one no matter how good you are loses someone special to them at some point during their lives.
Yes everyone will eventually get to "heaven"
If you remember all the bad deeds of your previous life, you will carry the burden with you forever.
Of course it is.
Science follows the evidence, so we can be totally wrong about something today but believe it's right, until someone blows the theory out of the water with evidence later.
Not sure if serious.
Science is literally disputing until you find the right answer. You come up with an idea and you spend a long time trying to prove your own idea wrong until you can be very confident that it is not wrong.
The scientific process involves theories being put forward despite the fact that they contain imperfections and anomalies. These theories will later be dismantled, fine-tuned or replaced with a more adequate theory. The logic of some theories may suggest that there's something we don't know, such as an undiscovered moon orbiting a distant planet, or a new planet. This happened early in the last century with some of the more distant planets.
But I suspect Billy is referring to something else, that the importance and validity of science based information is beyond dispute ?
But I suspect Billy is referring to something else, that the importance and validity of science based information is beyond dispute ?
Science is the continuation of proof. 1+1 can't be disputed. Neither can a man traveling out of his own planet.
Morality developed in humans long before religion came along with their specific sets of rules.
If, in the morning, I found evidence that proved that Darwinian evolution was wrong and that we were all put here by space chimps who picked and chose what changed in our make up over time, then Darwinian evolution, the most accepted theory for who we are and how we got here, would no longer be accepted. That's how science works. As long as my evidence could be studied, peer reviewed and was accepted as a better explanation, then Darwin's theory would be gone.
And you know what, if Dawrin were still alive, he'd study the evidence and if it were in fact right, he'd accept it as true rather than argue that his version was right.
Why exactly ?
I'm not a religious guy per se, I'm not here for a Faith vs fact debate.
All I've said is trying to find meaning or purpose to anything whether it is scientific exploration, spiritual enlightenment or even life in general is all a matter of how one decides to look at it.
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Because you said "What's the point in science? and What's the point in life?" as if they were equivalent to "What's the point in religion?"
If I have to explain why I disagree with that we'd be here all day.
Then whats the point in the punishment? If you do something bad, another you who you'll never meet and who won't remember anything about you will be punished. That isn't really much of a deterrent.
An example might be to consider a puppy. The puppy does something bad several times, so instead of discipling it, you wait 6 months and then kick the shit out of it for all the things it did months previously. Is that a good system? The puppy has no idea what is going on, or why it is being punished, it doesn't learn anything or connect the events in any way, it just thinks you're a cruel bastard.
Sorry, I added to my post before I saw you had replied.
I'm not a nutjob trying to defend religion or downgrade science.
If someone could ask the question" what's the point of religion ?", he is either aggrieved by the idea or doesn't know and wants to understand.
A victim of a destructive scientific technology could ask the question about science too, couldn't they?
A fatalistic person who finds everything about life as futile and meaningless , has every right to as " Why live, we are so infinitesimal and insignificant in the grand scheme of things ?"
It's up to you whether you try and find meaning to something or not. It doesn't have to be the absolute truth. As long as you don't force it on others.
The problem is, the meaning that people have found is communicated to others by the religion itself as being the absolute truth.
First up, thanks for the replies guys, I'm finding this a very interesting subject, I appreciate it!
I personally think God showing up would be the best way to test us, surely then that would really show up those who should not get into heaven? If he turned up and confirmed the rules but said he still wouldn't actively touch anything, surely that would show up the truly evil people who would no doubt still kill for example? I don't get why we should all be tested and even if we live our lives better than the average christian, still not get in.
As for the bone cancer in babies scenario, can I genuinely ask if your answer makes you happy with that? Ok, happy obviously being the wrong word, satisfied that god is still all loving? You say cancer is a flaw, and anomaly, but surely that then proves good is fallible and by extension, nearly all of Christianity? Even if so, why couldn't he just stop babies and children getting it?
What, then is the level of ego and materialistic things we are allowed to have? I mean we all have egos, is there some cut off? Or are we all supposed to just go without and be eternally humble?
Well that seems like a stacked deck. A test that isn't fair.
I understand it's complex my friend
But is there an answer for why babies? As in is the scale of past deeds relevant to how long you live? And what about the knock on effect, what about people who might do some unknown wrong as a direct result of their child dying? But most of all, I really want to know, does that mean all children who die deserve to in the eyes of our creator?
So again, doesn't that render religion pretty much unnecessary?
I personally think God showing up would be the best way to test us, surely then that would really show up those who should not get into heaven? If he turned up and confirmed the rules but said he still wouldn't actively touch anything, surely that would show up the truly evil people who would no doubt still kill for example? I don't get why we should all be tested and even if we live our lives better than the average christian, still not get in.
As for the bone cancer in babies scenario, can I genuinely ask if your answer makes you happy with that? Ok, happy obviously being the wrong word, satisfied that god is still all loving? You say cancer is a flaw, and anomaly, but surely that then proves good is fallible and by extension, nearly all of Christianity? Even if so, why couldn't he just stop babies and children getting it?
What, then is the level of ego and materialistic things we are allowed to have? I mean we all have egos, is there some cut off? Or are we all supposed to just go without and be eternally humble?
Well that seems like a stacked deck. A test that isn't fair.
I understand it's complex my friend
But is there an answer for why babies? As in is the scale of past deeds relevant to how long you live? And what about the knock on effect, what about people who might do some unknown wrong as a direct result of their child dying? But most of all, I really want to know, does that mean all children who die deserve to in the eyes of our creator?
So again, doesn't that render religion pretty much unnecessary?
That's exactly it. I'll add, even if we were to remember, what's the point in killing babies still? And as I've just asked above, does that mean if you believe in this whole idea of karma and reincarnation, you believe every dead child deserved to suffer because of past deeds they had zero control over? Surely a better system would be to just remove the fragment from the equation, even something like a godly sin bin, than make others suffer!
I mean, ok so the Hitler baby dies, but what happens if the parents have been nothing but saints in their past lives? Why should they suffer? Surely that removes all point in bothering to be good enough in the first place.
Not disputing that. Obviously it's bollocks which should be rightly ridiculed and opposed.
I think someone mentioned this a couple of pages back, but this is why i usually stay out of religious discussions. You're never going to convince an atheist that all religion isn't fiction and a dangerous waste of time, just like you're never going to convince the religious that their god isn't the only truth and the only way to live. Anything resembling a reasonable conversation just ends up in anger from both sides.
That's false. Plenty of people are swayed to either side through discussion and critique. It's better than the alternative which is to allow people to just be told what to think and always go along with it rather than challenging both sides and forming their own view.
I totally agree on being informed can only be a positive thing, but i find people are very rarely swayed from one side to another. And i mean in personal views, there's no reason for the two groups to be intimidated or scared of each other as seems the case in extremists on both sides. I get along quite happily with friends who are muslim and hindu, we just don't bother trying to sway each other to our sides.
Maybe angry was the wrong word, probably more irritation from going around in circles trying to answer the same unanswerable questions.
Karma is not exactly tit for tat, people. That kind of oversimplification leads to loss of what it actually means. Almost every concept of the eastern religions primarily Hinduism and its other offshoots including Buddhism, when you try to explain it, it becomes quite complex, requires time and effort to understand and the simplification you get on the internet makes people, especially those of western civilization confused and leave them with a lot of questions still left unanswered.
It's not all black and white when it comes to spirituality in the east. It doesn't proclaim to be the copyright owner of the absolute truth. That's more the job of Abrahamic religions.
I don't know how much people on an internet forum are genuinely interested to know about these stuff. Maybe some are. Maybe some just want to take the piss. You feel like you're talking to a vague crowd.
It's not all black and white when it comes to spirituality in the east. It doesn't proclaim to be the copyright owner of the absolute truth. That's more the job of Abrahamic religions.
I don't know how much people on an internet forum are genuinely interested to know about these stuff. Maybe some are. Maybe some just want to take the piss. You feel like you're talking to a vague crowd.
Well I'm enjoying the debate and having my questions answered and I appreciate that. It's not all about arguing and trying to convince people your side is right, that's all too often forgot in forums.
Well then maybe you can answer my questions? I'm genuinely interested and understand it's not a simple concept so I get that any answer may not be whole or straightforward, but I'm genuinely intrigued as to death in the very young is handled and explained. It's seems like it's certainly very different to what the Christians are saying, so that in itself is interesting to me.
The Hitler case was maybe theoretical but here's real one from today in Spain. A man has jumped out of the hospital window where he was visiting his wife or partner. They'd had an argument so he launched himself AND HIS BABY OUT OF THE WINDOW .Both have died. Why wasn't God there ?
And why are all the innocent people around the situation punished? The staff, the witnesses, the family and friends, etc.
The point is cash. And shit loads of it. You would be surprised at just how much these businesses make. A tithe of 10% of your earnings for a lot of churches and it is all tax free.
This guy needs a private jet because travelling on normal planes is not God's will.
I suppose the biggest use for the cash is to compensate all the victims of abuse by the priests.
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http://www.christianpost.com/news/joel-osteens-lakewood-church-theft-still-a-mystery-25000-reward-offered-116688/This guy needs a private jet because travelling on normal planes is not God's will.
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http://edition.cnn.com/2015/03/13/living/creflo-dollar-jet-feat/I suppose the biggest use for the cash is to compensate all the victims of abuse by the priests.
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https://www.ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/vatican-abuse-summit-22-billion-and-100000-victims-us-aloneI will get back to you with a little refreshing and addition of my limited knowledge. I'm 23 and not really an expert, don't practice religion frivolously, but since I've a interest and inclination towards that part of hinduism that deals with spirituality and not the rituals and practices, I have learnt a bit, although my knowledge would still be amateurish. There are better people out there who probably can explain it to you much better, but I will make an effort to help you understand since you asked. Please give me some time.
However, I'll tell you this much now. The concept in east regarding body and soul is diiferent to that of west.
In West, it is " Mark has a soul " or " "You have a soul"
whereas it becomes " This soul has got Mark's body for now", or "Your soul has this body". The body is like a cloth. You change it just like when you change your dress if it gets dirty or ragged.
The emphasis is on mind or soul rather than physical body. And as a result, the physical suffering is seen as temporary and insignificant which again the westerners might feel differently.
"God works in mysterious ways."
There are some tragedies like this that stay with you. A few years ago in Canada a python or boa constrictor escaped from a pet shop and somehow got into the flat upstairs, where it killed two children. Unbearable tragedy.
God doesn't play dice with the universe.