Religion, what's the point?

[Redlambs]

Karma rectifies your mistakes for you. We tend to blame God for our misfortunes, when in reality is due to Karmic consequence. You have free will in this life now, and you had it in the last. You can choose to good, or choose to do bad. That's all free will is.

Also if you haven't been exposed to Sikhism, you still have every single chance. As mentioned before religion is just a label, and we are judged on our actions and thoughts alone. Religion (if any) is not considered. You are judged on your own merit regardless, but if you have sinned and still get through then it's not on your own merit. If you've done good then it is. So actually what you are saying should be the case, is actually the case. I'm saying that someone who is part of a religion is more likely to do good, because they have the tools and the knowledge available to them. If you're an atheist and you manage to do it with no guidance whatsoever, well then I have to say you're one heck of a person. Think of it as teaching yourself tennis with no coach whatsoever and winning Wimbledon.

What we call life is a combination of the soul + the vessel (human body). The vessel is part of the material universe so this can be created and destroyed, and we believe the body is temporary. The soul is actually an essence of God, it's not separate. It's a fraction of God. So there's actually no "us" and God. There is only God. It's our human minds that make us think otherwise (Ego). So to answer your question, no new life is created- it's already all there.

But didn't you say:

Because I would argue that we don't have the means without religion, or more specifically the teachings/methods of the enlightened ones.

So which is it? Can I atone and make up for past sins without being introduced to religion or not? My point is, I don't trust religion. I trust in my ability to be a good person and pass that on to my offspring. If Religion is just a label, do you therefore accept all other religions as correct? Are some better or worse than others? Why should we be made to sift through all that, when we can just be good people?

The deity isn't deciding, Karma is. God doesn't decide this person needs to punished this way. Karma just simply brings the pain one has caused back on themselves whether in one life or across multiple. It has to balance out, if you do something bad you have to receive punishment. If you do good, you have to receive reward. It's like a law. The soul has to be punished, until the debt is paid. Let's say it was Hitler, now it's horrendous to us now yes exactly. It's horrendous to the family, doctors etc. But it was not horrendous to all the lives and people affected by Hitler? That's how it balances out. Admittedly, Hitler is a pretty extreme example given most people couldn't dream of committing that much atrocity.

So now you are saying, that karma is balancing out all those hitler killed with the lives affected by new born babies dying? Is that not just completely wrong? Or have I got the concept wrong. I admit, I'm a little confused I guess I'm asking, what if some or all of those people have been good in their past life, or even lives? Do they still have to suffer for one fraction's sins? How is that in any way fair and just and loving and right, things we are now told we should live our lives by?

I hope I'm making sense there, basically I can't understand why Karma decides to punish good fractions of god to prove a point to the singular bad ones. Unless you are saying all those good ones have been bad in lives far previous? In which case, doesn't that sound a little like hell??

 

[simonhch]

Oh, I'm moving to Chicago on Tuesday mate. Family is fine and it's time to meet @simonhch I guess.

Looking forward to it. PM'd you.

 

[AXVnee7]

But didn't you say:



So which is it? Can I atone and make up for past sins without being introduced to religion or not? My point is, I don't trust religion. I trust in my ability to be a good person and pass that on to my offspring. If Religion is just a label, do you therefore accept all other religions as correct? Are some better or worse than others? Why should we be made to sift through all that, when we can just be good people?




So now you are saying, that karma is balancing out all those hitler killed with the lives affected by new born babies dying? Is that not just completely wrong? Or have I got the concept wrong. I admit, I'm a little confused I guess I'm asking, what if some or all of those people have been good in their past life, or even lives? Do they still have to suffer for one fraction's sins? How is that in any way fair and just and loving and right, things we are now told we should live our lives by?

I hope I'm making sense there, basically I can't understand why Karma decides to punish good fractions of god to prove a point to the singular bad ones. Unless you are saying all those good ones have been bad in lives far previous? In which case, doesn't that sound a little like hell??

What I meant is you can get there without religion (but it's not the religion itself, it's the path of the master who already knows the way), but to do so without guidance means you'll have done on so the off chance. This is simply not viable for the human race collectively, and we're talking about a miniscule amount of people. God in mercy can intervene and let someone who would've otherwise remained in the cycle, and break free - this is where the "contradiction" is coming from.

We don't accept every single religion as correct, but we recognise there are other religions which are valid paths and not just ours. Some are definitely better than others. But again, how do you know you're being a good enough person?


No I'm saying Karma is balancing out the lives Hitler killed, on Hitler himself. The new born baby IS Hitler, it's his soul.

If you've been good in your past life, (and especially if it's lives), then you will absolutely receive reward. If you do enough good, then you break the cycle of re-incarnation, in which case karma stops applying to you. So all your bad deeds would become irrelevant.

 

[Redlambs]

What I meant is you can get there without religion (but it's not the religion itself, it's the path of the master who already knows the way), but to do so without guidance means you'll have done on so the off chance. This is simply not viable for the human race collectively, and we're talking about a miniscule amount of people. God in mercy can intervene and let someone who would've otherwise remained in the cycle, and break free - this is where the "contradiction" is coming from.

Contradiction of free will you mean? Because I don't understand why we need to be force fed what's right and wrong if we are being judged anyway.

We don't accept every single religion as correct, but we recognise there are other religions which are valid paths and not just ours. Some are definitely better than others. But again, how do you know you're being a good enough person?

Because I help others, I love and most importantly to me, I raise my two children to be fantastic little people. They are kind, compassionate, clever and they consistently love and respect people around them. That's reality, that's what I live my life by, that's who I directly affect and am responsible for. Have I done things I regret? Maybe. But have I truly been a bad person? I don't know. I just know my reality, and as such why should I be judged on anything else, when this is the life I've been currently given?

Am I a good person? Who knows. I do believe that answer doesn't come from other human beings telling me though. Which is what religion is.

No I'm saying Karma is balancing out the lives Hitler killed, on Hitler himself. The new born baby IS Hitler, it's his soul.

You just dodged the questions and point there. What about the others the baby's death hurts. What did they do?

If you've been good in your past life, (and especially if it's lives), then you will absolutely receive reward. If you do enough good, then you break the cycle of re-incarnation, in which case karma stops applying to you. So all your bad deeds would become irrelevant.

So eventually, every single person gets back to heaven anyway. Or at very least, there's a clear divide no?

 

[McUnited]

@McUnited what is your end goal here? I'm religious and I make a conscious effort not to discuss God and religion on the Internet with a bunch of strangers. It only entrenches their position further and there is no 'winning' this debate when so much of our (a poster with religious beliefs) is dependent on conjecture, personal anecdotal experience and a spiritual calling. Is it not the point of religion to bring others to light instead of being a smart arse on the internet and to win the argument?

I don't have any particular end goal in mind, but I just choose to dip in every now and again because it's a topic that interests me. I apologise if I come across to you as being a smartarse. Despite being on the receiving end of a lot of vitriol and enmity from various posters in the past, I do actually try very hard not to respond in kind and antagonise people as I know that simply serves to harden one's heart.

There are, however, several posters on here who have clearly not closed their minds to the possibility of there being a God. I was, until relatively recently, a non-believer (agnostic) and had tremendous intellectual problems with Christianity such as those outlined by many posters here (Noah's Ark, the problem of evil, why would God create a world knowing it would fall, why are there problematic passages in the Bible etc. etc.). However, I've come to believe in His existence not through personal experience or spiritual calling but through reason and evidence that has satisfied my earlier skepticsm to a great enough extent to believe in God.

I think many people likewise have an intellectual problem with God, and if I can prompt some reflection or thought on the matter, then that, I think, would be worth the time spent here discussing such matters. People's responses and questions may also cause me to rethink and challenge some aspects of my belief, which I also welcome!

 

[McUnited]

Are you saying that the fact that we can't disprove God's existence proves His existence ?

No, although I think that is actually quite an interesting argument. I don't think the question can be settled either way in general based on our limited perceptions and reasoning ability. I've mentioned before that I think it could be argued that this is the way it would be if there was a God who wanted people to freely choose whether or not to believe through faith. Concrete proof would deprive people of the freedom to choose.

 

[McUnited]

Religion does, but you specifically said "God". Nice try at a swerve there!




So what is God then, a fact?




If you had evidence, the whole world would believe in God. You have faith and belief.




Yes, I'll get into heaven either way. But I won't have been part of a mass group that has changed the planet around them all based on some man written words. It's interesting you ignore the free will part of my post btw. After all, apparantly we have it, but what you are following flies directly in the face of that does it not?

1) Well, I mean God too. Not just religion. In fact, more so God, than religion!

2) I don't think it's as simple as there being evidence. I think it depends on the kind and quantity of evidence, and the person considering the evidence. Some people won't believe in God no matter what evidence is presented to them, others will believe without considering much evidence.

What evidence, for example, would convince you that God exists?

3) I'm afraid I missed the free will part you refer to. I realise you've asked me several questions which I haven't had the opportunity to respond due to time limitations. Apologies!

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

That's because your asserting that I'm saying the baby deserved it. I'm merely explaining the why. Of course as humans we are compassionate so we would feel pain, and anguish.

It's horrendous now, but you don't know what the sins committed in the past were. If you found out it was Hitler would you be so sympathetic? Many wouldn't.

How does punishing a baby for sins committed in a previous life, which it has no memory of, serve any purpose at all?

Punishing new baby Hitler who doesn't know he used to be Hitler is as bad as Hitler. ( Three Hitlers in one sentence ).

 

[Grinner]

How does punishing a baby for sins committed in a previous life, which it has no memory of, serve any purpose at all?

Punishing new baby Hitler who doesn't know he used to be Hitler is as bad as Hitler. ( Three Hitlers in one sentence ).

It's god's will, a test, you have to have faith, etc. etc.

 

[Billy Blaggs]

If there is a creator he's a cnut.

Look through history and tell me I'm wrong.

 

[McUnited]

If there is a creator he's a cnut.

Look through history and tell me I'm wrong.

Can you elaborate?

 

[Billy Blaggs]

Cancer for one.
Babies being born deformed.

 

[McUnited]

Cancer for one.
Babies being born deformed.

Okay, so your argument against God is that you think he could have created a world in which these things didn't exist, yet he chose not to do so?

 

[duffer]

Okay, so your argument against God is that you think he could have created a world in which these things didn't exist, yet he chose not to do so?

If he created everything, bone cancer in children was an pretty shitty choice don't you think?

 

[Grinner]

Okay, so your argument against God is that you think he could have created a world in which these things didn't exist, yet he chose not to do so?

If he created man in his own image then what's the deal with deformed people?

 

[Walrus]

Because I help others, I love and most importantly to me, I raise my two children to be fantastic little people. They are kind, compassionate, clever and they consistently love and respect people around them. That's reality, that's what I live my life by, that's who I directly affect and am responsible for. Have I done things I regret? Maybe. But have I truly been a bad person? I don't know. I just know my reality, and as such why should I be judged on anything else, when this is the life I've been currently given?

This.

Morality and a sense of "right and wrong" are not taught (just) by religion, but by society in general. If an individual genuinely believes that they are doing the right thing and living their life in a 'good' way then who ultimately has the authority to tell them they are wrong? The concepts of right and wrong have been established by thousands of years of human evolution, culture and society anyway - they are not laws of nature but rather social constructs.

I also think that if there is some sort of divine being, they would not be quite so narcissistic to judge people on whether they believe in said divine being or not, which seems a linchpin of most religions.

 

[McUnited]

If he created everything, bone cancer in children was an pretty shitty choice don't you think?

Bone cancer in children is terrible and it's very difficult to separate the emotive from the intellectual problem in such instances. Yet I'm sure you'll agree that cancer cells are not the norm. They are deviations from the norm.

 

[Billy Blaggs]

Well an all loving God can't do it as good as I would have is a bit shit IMO.

 

[duffer]

Bone cancer in children is terrible and it's very difficult to separate the emotive from the intellectual problem in such instances. Yet I'm sure you'll agree that cancer cells are not the norm. They are deviations from the norm.

I know genetics is a complicated field but by definition, such things would in the control of an omnipotent creator of everything.

He either was not perfect at creating everything or he created all the shitty things on purpose.

 

[Grinner]

I know genetics is a complicated field but by definition, such things would in the control of an omnipotent creator of everything.

He either was not perfect at creating everything or he created all the shitty things on purpose.

He did only have 6 days TBF.

 

[McUnited]

This.

Morality and a sense of "right and wrong" are not taught (just) by religion, but by society in general. If an individual genuinely believes that they are doing the right thing and living their life in a 'good' way then who ultimately has the authority to tell them they are wrong? The concepts of right and wrong have been established by thousands of years of human evolution, culture and society anyway - they are not laws of nature but rather social constructs.

I also think that if there is some sort of divine being, they would not be quite so narcissistic to judge people on whether they believe in said divine being or not, which seems a linchpin of most religions.

There are three points I'd take issue with here.

1) You're advocating relative morality. If so, then no culture can claim to say they have the right set of morals over another.
No-one has the moral right to tell another that what they do is right or wrong in absolute terms.

2) To say that morals have been established by 1000s of years of human evolution isn't an argument against religion because God could have created morality that way (though I wouldn't argue this). However, I would say that the concepts of right and wrong are built-in to everyone's heart since God makes us moral beings in his image.

3) Speaking from my admittedly weak understanding of Christian theology, I'd say that wanting people to know God isn't narcissism on God's part. It's because he loves us and know's what's best for us!

 

[McUnited]

I know genetics is a complicated field but by definition, such things would in the control of an omnipotent creator of everything.

He either was not perfect at creating everything or he created all the shitty things on purpose.

Perhaps. But exploring this further, would you prefer God to have created a world where no-one died? Or a world where no-one was ever injured? What sort of world would be your ideal?

 

[McUnited]

He did only have 6 days TBF.

Ha!

 

[duffer]

Perhaps. But exploring this further, would you prefer God to have created a world where no-one died? Or a world where no-one was ever injured? What sort of world would be your ideal?

Babies not being born with horrific illnesses would be a start. Good people not having to suffer things such as Alzheimer's to the point that they forget their children's names would be another.

Accidents happen, life happens but there's just too many unfair and hellish things randomly dished out to people to think that there is an all powerful, loving creator out there watching everything and deciding to let it all happen.

 

[McUnited]

Babies not being born with horrific illnesses would be a start. Good people not having to suffer things such as Alzheimer's to the point that they forget their children's names would be another.

Accidents happen, life happens but there's just too many unfair and hellish things randomly dished out to people to think that there is an all powerful, loving creator out there watching everything and deciding to let it all happen.

I completely understand the point that there are a lot of unfortunate conditions and events in the world where we ask why on earth God would let it happen. But in His defence, if he were to ask 'at what point should I step in'? I doubt any two people would be able to come up with the same answer. And any answer that one does come up with would have consequences that may be unpalatable, and many I suspect that are unforeseen.

 

[duffer]

I completely understand the point that there are a lot of unfortunate conditions and events in the world where we ask why on earth God would let it happen. But in His defence, if he were to ask 'at what point should I step in'? I doubt any two people would be able to come up with the same answer. And any answer that one does come up with would have consequences that may be unpalatable, and many I suspect that are unforeseen.

It's not really about "stepping in", it's about the decision to give those babies cancer in the first place.

If everything in the universe was created by a god, that includes the bad as well as the good.

 

[Summit]

What evidence, for example, would convince you that God exists

What evidence do you have to share? You said you have evidence god exists, so what is it?

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

2) To say that morals have been established by 1000s of years of human evolution isn't an argument against religion because God could have created morality that way (though I wouldn't argue this). However, I would say that the concepts of right and wrong are built-in to everyone's heart since God makes us moral beings in his image.

Morals aren't 'built into our hearts'. It's a consequence of functioning in a society. Left to our own device, we'd act on instincts just like virtually any animal that have ever walked this Earth.

3) Speaking from my admittedly weak understanding of Christian theology, I'd say that wanting people to know God isn't narcissism on God's part. It's because he loves us and know's what's best for us!

And this is a cop out. He was being a cnut to us because he knows best. However, using the same flawed reasoning, how are you to know he actually knows best and not just a cnut?

 

[McUnited]

It's not really about "stepping in", it's about the decision to give those babies cancer in the first place.

If everything in the universe was created by a god, that includes the bad as well as the good.

I don't think God decides to give any babies cancer anymore than he decides whether or not I type this post?

 

[duffer]

I don't think God decides to give any babies cancer anymore than he decides whether or not I type this post?

I agree with you, I don't think a god created everything either. Some people do though.

 

[Walrus]

1) You're advocating relative morality. If so, then no culture can claim to say they have the right set of morals over another.
No-one has the moral right to tell another that what they do is right or wrong in absolute terms.

That is pretty much my point. Yet religions do this exact thing on a daily basis. To me, everyone has their own moral compass which is determined and influenced by all sorts of things.

2) To say that morals have been established by 1000s of years of human evolution isn't an argument against religion because God could have created morality that way (though I wouldn't argue this). However, I would say that the concepts of right and wrong are built-in to everyone's heart since God makes us moral beings in his image.

I would be interested to see any religion which suggests what you are saying. Scientifically, the concept of society, culture and civilisation have been examined endlessly to offer explanations for these sorts of things. It is impossible to prove it one way or another of course, but I could just as easily suggest some far fetched theory about aliens and robots, with nothing but faith to base it on.

3) Speaking from my admittedly weak understanding of Christian theology, I'd say that wanting people to know God isn't narcissism on God's part. It's because he loves us and know's what's best for us!

If God himself doesn't judge us based on whether or not we follow a particular religion, then what authority do humans have to do so? This is a fundamental issue I have with the whole concept of people needing to spread their religion.

 

[McUnited]

That is pretty much my point. Yet religions do this exact thing on a daily basis. To me, everyone has their own moral compass which is determined and influenced by all sorts of things.




I would be interested to see any religion which suggests what you are saying. Scientifically, the concept of society, culture and civilisation have been examined endlessly to offer explanations for these sorts of things. It is impossible to prove it one way or another of course, but I could just as easily suggest some far fetched theory about aliens and robots, with nothing but faith to base it on.



If God himself doesn't judge us based on whether or not we follow a particular religion, then what authority do humans have to do so? This is a fundamental issue I have with the whole concept of people needing to spread their religion.

Just in response to the two bolded parts above...

I understand faith as being belief based upon evidence. When, for example, you say to someone 'I have faith in you', I think you would say so based upon evidence that supports your faith. If I say that I have faith in Rooney's ability to score a penalty (I'm not saying that I do, but it serves to illustrate the point...), it's because of evidence gathered on previous occasions he's taken a penalty.

I think God does 'judge' on that basis, although I wouldn't agree with the way you put it. In my opinion, (and those of Christians, I believe), the route to God is through Christ. We may be wrong, of course. But if He does exist, then that's the path to salvation!

 

[Billy Blaggs]

I would do anything for my children. I'd murder if need be.
If the almighty can't do the same then he's not almighty or he's not and all loving God.

 

[McUnited]

I would do anything for my children. I'd murder if need be.
If the almighty can't do the same then he's not almighty or he's not and all loving God.

I'm not sure whether you're serious but...

1) Murder is sin. Therefore God wouldn't murder.

but let's say for the sake of argument that he 'would do anything for his children', including murder.

Then, 2) Since we are all His children, that would involve murdering one of his children in order to protect one of his children.

Would you do so?

 

[Billy Blaggs]

If I was almighty I'd tell them to stop and it would happen because I said so.

And I'm serious.

My kids fight. Even fists. When I raise my voice they stop. Why doesn't God just tell us he'll take our phones.

And if murder is a sin then God is a serial murderer.

 

[McUnited]

If I was almighty I'd tell them to stop and it would happen because I said so.

And I'm serious.

My kids fight. Even fists. When I raise my voice they stop. Why doesn't God just tell us he'll take our phones.

And if murder is a sin then God is a serial murderer.

Would you honestly prefer to live in such a world? Everytime you're about to do something bad, God raises his voice?
God isn't a serial murderer, as far as I understand. There's a difference between killing and murdering...

 

[Billy Blaggs]

When you can avoid it and do it anyway it's murder.

And I would love to live in a world with no cancer etc. Isn't that heaven.

 

[AN17]

Science, what's the point ?

Life, what's the point ?

All matter of perception imo.

 

[Raoul]

One of the greatest shortcomings about religion is that the truth is we don't know, and surrendering to the fact that we don't know is the beginning of knowing.

 

[Billy Blaggs]

Science is a proven fact.