I think it was people smiting people, people asking God to help them smite people.
Religion, what's the point?
- Thread starter TheRedFlag
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God gave us free will, he doesn't punish us for how we use it, it is in the Bible in various places. I have no idea what you mean by the word Punish because God does not. Happy with that?
Except that bit where he apparently got so fecked off with humans being cnuts, and animals in general, that he flooded the earth and killed most of them by drowning...
Genesis 5:32-10:1New International Version (NIV) said:
From reading that passage, I also stumbled across this...
I've never really read much of the bible, except in RE classes at school, which was a bag of shite...
And this is taken seriously?
I've never really read much of the bible, except in RE classes at school, which was a bag of shite...
And this is taken seriously?
Yeah but that is really Old Testament, Christians have a new covenant with God.
Ha yeah, that was a bit smity! (smitey?!)
No. Of course I'm not happy with that. You answered it with another unsubstantiated claim.
So again, how do you know these things? How do you know god gave us free will? How do you know God doesn't punish people? How do you know god loves people?
Because it says so in a book that you have no faith in and yet I do.
Forgive me for saying this but neither you or I are the first people to say these things on this thread and the progress from here is predictable.
so the smiting, and drowning was in Series 1 of God, but it was rebooted in Series 2?
The New Testament contains a new covenant between God and man/woman. It doesn't mean that we can't gain some things from The Old Testament but the smiting was out. God does not punish people from approx. 2000 years ago and more.
Agreed
Ok, next question. My friends wife reckons dinosaurs/fossils, etc are a fabrication of science, to discredit religion.
How would you, as a practicing christian, with a presumable belief that the world is only 5000 years or so old, explain things like fossils and dinosaurs?
How would you, as a practicing christian, with a presumable belief that the world is only 5000 years or so old, explain things like fossils and dinosaurs?
Is this when God discovered Jesus?
They don't have to explain anything as long as they can point to "Faith".
So your'e not here for a serious discussion? What's the point then in you taking part?
I don't have to answer anything that isn't directed at me.
No I'm genuinely interested, I just like to bring a bit of humour to proceedings...
I don't believe in god, any god, or divine powers, etc...but I am interested in the reasoning behind people who do believe in god, what makes them believe, even if it is based upon (what I see as) fanciful stories and myths full of things that make no sense, things such as the great floods, talking snakes, 500 year old Noah, Parting the Red Sea, Water into Wine, etc...when there is no proof of such things ever happening?
Do you take everything in the bible as gospel? You mention above that the old testament is no longer valid, as the new testment took over, what made god change his mind? How do you decide which parts of the Old Testament to disregard, and which to practice?
@oates, isn't being denied entry into Heaven a form of punishment?
EDIT: In fact, you yourself said that going to hell means to be cut off from god. How is that not the worst punishment for Christians?
EDIT: In fact, you yourself said that going to hell means to be cut off from god. How is that not the worst punishment for Christians?
Sorry Andy, even if you aren't here just to wum, mock or insult I'me virtually certain that I've been asked this before on this discussion and I've little desire to cover it again given the low reward system already established on here. In any case I'm virtually certain that if I haven't been coherent in my explanations someone else will have done a much better job. At the end of the day despite any debate on here no-one will change their minds, I certainly won't and I've a good idea very few on here would.
Good question which I can't remember being asked before. The answer is no, again it comes down to free choice. If we choose to follow God we hope to be allowed past the gates etc, if you choose not to follow God then your free choice has decided for you where you go more or less, it's not a punishment. But. We don't know who will go to Heaven or Hell, I believe there are some factors that would see you invited and in any case as I did say a page or so earlier I'm afraid when Hell gets shut down you will be on the list. We get you in the end like it or not I guess. At least you may see someone you know.
If God is omniscient, then it means that he knows every single thing that happens in the universe, both now and infinitely into the future...Does anyone therefore have free will in such a universe? God knows everything that will happen to you...Therefore, the instant you were created, God knows whether you are going to heaven or hell...To create someone knowing that that person will be damned to hell for eternity is punishment in it's most severe form I think...
ok thanks for your answer.
But like you say if you follow god, and don't get let into heaven, then you would have to wonder why? You lived your life by god, and to not be allowed entry would surely mean you are being punished for something you did in your life?
Anyway, would you answer this for me too?
How is this a hell for non believers? This isn't hell, it is how we lived our lives anyway.In all seriousness some of us don't believe the Fire & Brimstone version of Hell, for us Hell is merely a place without connection to God, being completely cut off.
We do have a decent idea that Stella Artois is on tap at the free forever bar in Heaven though. Or something good anyway.
I was being a bit tongue in cheek really, of course if you want to be with God in Heaven then you will go to Heaven so long as you haven't attempted to cheat, there's no point in asking forgiveness if you don't intend to try and change but Hell isn't a punishment. God has given us all every chance possible to listen but we make the choice and Hell is where you must have wanted to end up. Hell isn't a punishment, vicars and priests down the centuries may have devised a different picture but we are told or come to learn that being absent from God is all it is, fine if you enjoy it, it is after all, your choice. Obviously I don't have a room plan or idea what the restaurants and shopping are like in Hell or Heaven.
With all due respect, why do you even bother posting such condescending remarks?
I don't think this follows at all. Knowing whether or not someone will do something isn't to causally determine that they will do so, or that they will not freely choose to bring about that state of affairs. I know that the checkout staff will scan my food when I go shopping later today, but that isn't to cause them to do so, and they wouldn't argue that they had no free choice over the matter.
Its not meant to be condescending. A religious person simply has no burden of explaining or providing tangible evidence when they can obfuscate towards mysticism. This is the fundamental problem with religious folk debating atheists. Its hard to not sound rude or condescending when telling someone they have wasted much of their life believing in something that doesn't exist, other than in their heads.
Agree with this...my comments aren't meant to antagonise or wu (don't like wum as it has an un-required M) people...
It's just that my belief system (or lack of one) requires proof before I believe something...and there's no proof (again in my own opinion) for the existence of an Omnipotent, all seeing, creator...
Okay, I appreciate that perhaps you don't mean it to be condescending. But why on earth would you 'tell someone they have wasted so much of their life believing in something that doesn't exist', when that would surely be the subject under discussion in debating a theist. If it's a fruitful conversation you seek, that won't work because that's a conversation stopper.
I really hope if there is a god, and I'm more agnostic than athiest, then it is nothing like what is described in most man made religions.
As Stephen Fry rightly said, why would any kind of loving god create so much misery and yet demand so much faith? Why would it strip a mother of her child through some disease it created, then expect her to still worship to get into it's eternal grace? If she doesn't have it in her heart, the heart it has done it's best to destroy, then she gets eternally damned. That seems more evil than good.
Maybe the likes of Christianity has it backwards.
As Stephen Fry rightly said, why would any kind of loving god create so much misery and yet demand so much faith? Why would it strip a mother of her child through some disease it created, then expect her to still worship to get into it's eternal grace? If she doesn't have it in her heart, the heart it has done it's best to destroy, then she gets eternally damned. That seems more evil than good.
Maybe the likes of Christianity has it backwards.
As you said to me earlier, we've both been down this road before and so have many others in this thread and the outcome is predictable, so we probably don't need to discuss it any further.
I do find it incredible how faith alters the human mind though. You speak with such conviction about something you simply cannot possibly be sure about. "We will get you in the end, like it or not". That actually sounds mental.
We all have faith is something, we're all prepared to believe in something we have no certainty of whether it is faith in a relationship or faith that the Sun will rise tomorrow. All of us some form of experience or promise, repeat behaviour to fall back on. Faith really isn't so hard to have or uncommon.
It's meant as humour. Even if you go to Hell and like it or not something to my mind much better will eventually happen.
Can't wait to meet Hitler then. I'm sure the 6 million jews will be delighted when he gets to heaven.
Tide goes in, tide goes out. You can't explain that.
God didn't create suffering although that is a long and protracted discussion and I'll save it for those interested enough another day. But even parents know that the World can be unsafe, unfair, that diseases take lives and change them and yet most of humanity would still choose to have children because of hope.
Because it's fundamental to the reason/evidence based atheist view of the world we live in. This is why religious people prefer discussing religion within mystical parameters (case in point, the other religion thread about intra-religious views) with members of their religion or members of other religions - and not with atheists since they are going to be epistemologically challenged and forced to reflect on the validity of their own views.
Its a thought.
I'm sorry? I know the Sun will rise tomorrow, it did yesterday and the day before ad infinitum almost but maybe it won't always and that was a bit of fun.
But he did though. God created cancer cells did he not? If not, who did? I get we are his big experiment and all that, and it's about how we treat each other and live our lives, but why then is so much of our world designed to harm us regardless of our faith and moral choices? What's the need for that?
BTW I will state, I'm not purposely loading these questions to make any kind of anti-religious point, each to their own, I'm genuinely interested.
Well can we discuss it another day? Its okay I am fully aware that we can have a sensible debate without mocking each other pointlessly.
I don't understand how telling someone they're wasting their time is fundamental to being an atheist. But anyway, I'd also point out that many theist also take a reason/evidence view of the world in order to come up with their belief in God.