Of course we do. And in the post-ware era we have taken a number of dramatic steps to address the potential negative consequences of nationalism. The United Nations and European Union being concrete examples of this.
Religion, what's the point?
- Thread starter TheRedFlag
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Of course we do. And in the post-ware era we have taken a number of dramatic steps to address the potential negative consequences of nationalism. The United Nations and European Union being concrete examples of this.
Probably not as in-depth as someone who practices the religion. But here are some articles I came across on the system of Sharia Law practised in Indonesia and Bangladesh, two of the places that Aslan says women are "100% equal to men"
https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/10/02/indonesia-acehs-new-islamic-laws-violate-rights
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/06/opinion/bangladeshs-home-truth.html?_r=4
Yeah that's true, good point. But it does feel like general public opinion is moving in the opposite direction at the moment.
Am I doing that?
Yes you are. You are diverting the topic of discussion with something else and accusing (maybe not knowingly) people of not criticizing nationalism as well. If you go through previous pages, you would people mention that as well.
I dunno. I am a devout atheist who would rather there is no religion in the world so I should make my point better but I'm getting more and more of the opinion that nationalism is often the root cause where religion is blamed for ills.
Just a quick point - Bangladesh is not anywhere near Malaysia and Indonesia, geographically or culturally. And another - Aceh is the smallest, most rural, most conservative part of Indonesia. Aceh is to Indonesia as Alaska is to America or Thanet South is to the UK. (I am not aware that Aceh's hudud laws have been put into effect and actually applied on anyone either btw - but I could be mistaken.)
Now that I've gotten the smartarsing out of the way, let me try to engage your substantive point.
Sharia law is unfair to women in exactly the same way canon law is unfair to women. And if Aslan really said "100% equal" (I don't remember this but I'll be fecked if I'm going to rewatch the whole thing listening out for that one line) then he's wrong, and I'm surprised he would say that.
But respectfully I really believe you are making exactly the same mistake that Aslan points out in his thread. You are comparing the status of women in culturally-conservative, socially-not-quite-very-progressive SE Asia to that of Western liberal democracies. Of course they're going to be less than 100% equal. Look at the map of SE Asia and look north, south, east, and west of Malaysia and Indonesia. To the north, Thailand, you can go to jail for 20-30 years at the time for insulting the King. That's not a theoretical symbolic offence on the books to remind them of heritage. People, including western tourists, get hit by that all the time. To the south, Singapore executes people at third-highest rate per capita in the world. To the west, in Myanmar you have Buddhist monks - Buddhist fecking monks! - or pongyis, who routinely go on the rampage and slaughter Muslims. They don't have these problems in Central Africa because these are cultural issues, not religious issues, just like we don't have FGM here. (Thailand, Myanmar, and Singapore are not Muslim countries.)
So if you look at the picture in detail, yes - things are unfair. But context matters. Are these Muslim issues? I think so, to some extent - but culture is so intertwined with religious issues that you have to look at the big picture. The real question is, having controlled for the influence of generally conservative, patriarchal Asian culture, does Islam play a generally regressive role in repressing women's civil and political rights? Not much. IMO.
By the way, were it not for the Indonesian president's cultivation of his female support base, I believe he would have lost the last election without the female vote behind him. Aslan is absolutely correct about the civil and political rights of Muslim women in this region being real and substantive.
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Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a woman I respect a great deal, was on the C4 News last night talking about the need for Islam to have its own reformation. She has a book out dealing specifically with this subject which I intend to read in the New Year. So yes, I agree. Many or most Muslims may abhor violence but just saying "Islam is a religion of peace" over and over again isnt going to sway the people who are having scripture read out to them that plainly advocates violence.
you nailed it
An attack by Boko Haram today. In terms of brutality, these lot are are actually on par or worse than ISIS. Denying religion any role in all this violence is just being intellectually dishonest, but less obvious is what we can do about all of it.
I know you didn't quote me but in that video Aslan claim that FGM(female genital mutilation)is a central Africa problem is well
completely wrong.
It's worldwide problem.
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I remember seeing that long back and he bullshits a lot. Here is a rebuttal for that interview from Ex- muslims.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friend...a-aslan-is-wrong-about-islam-and-this-is-why/
Is it true that the prophet Muhammed was a warloard and had multiple pre teen wives?
Aslan is a fraud who knows he can get away with spouting distortions on Fox or CNN safe in the knowledge the presenters will be too dumb to challenge him properly.
The more the merrier.
Shit, sorry, you're quite right, of course. That's really weird. I was never aware of this growing up. I'm not sure if it's expanded a lot in recent times or its more prevalent in the countryside areas. You're absolutely right, sorry.
It's weird though because I get completely different data on this from different websites. This is the map I was thinking of earlier, from UNICEF apparently:
But as you point out there are many and well-corroborated accounts of this in SE Asia. What the procedure involves seems to vary from source to source - just a needle prick in some, removal of the clitoral hood in others, just rubbing it with tumeric for symbolic others in yet others.
Thanks for correcting me, though.
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I am not really interested in the matter, so I apologise for any potential mistakes.
My understanding is, that this graphic is based on a study, that only focused on this part of the world. It doesnt claim to know anything about SE Asia. It looks like you got it from wiki, so it might be a good idea to actually read what they are writing on this wiki page. Quoting a single graphic without context seems weird.
I could add a couple of things, but as long as wiki isn´t terribly wrong (which happens from time to time) there is little ambiguity about the connection between FGM and Islam.
My understanding is, that this graphic is based on a study, that only focused on this part of the world. It doesnt claim to know anything about SE Asia. It looks like you got it from wiki, so it might be a good idea to actually read what they are writing on this wiki page. Quoting a single graphic without context seems weird.
Indonesia
Female genital mutilation Type I and IV is prevalent in Indonesia;[204][205][206][207] 97.5%[207] of females from Muslim families (at least 85%[208] of females in Indonesia) are mutilated by age 18. In certain communities of Indonesia, mass female circumcision (khitanan massal) ceremony are organized by local Islamic foundations around Prophet Muhammad’s birthday. Some FGM are Type IV done with a pen knife, others are Type I done with scissors. Two Indonesian nationwide studies in 2003 and 2010 found over 80% of the cases sampled involved cutting, typically of newborns through the age of 9. The surveys demonstrated that circumcision among girls and boys is a universal practice in the study sites, in all of which Islam was the primary religion. Across the sites, among all the children aged 15–18, 86-100% of the girls were reported already circumcised. More than 90% of families visited in the studies claimed they wanted the practice to continue.[205][209] Historical records suggest female circumcision in Indonesia started and became prevalent with the arrival of Islam in the 13th century as part of its drive to convert people to Islam. In islands of Indonesia, where partial populations converted to Islam in the 17th century, FGM has been prevalent in Muslim females only.[210][211] In 2006, FGM was banned by the government; however, FGM/C remained commonplace for women in Indonesia - the world’s largest Muslim nation.[212] In 2010, the Indonesian Health Ministry issued a decree outlining the proper procedure for FGM, which activists claim contradicted the 2006 ruling prohibiting clinics from performing any FGM.[213] In 2013, the Indonesian Ulema Council ruled that it favors FGM, stating that although it is not mandatory, it is still “morally recommended”.[214] The Ulema has been pushing Indonesian government to circumcise girls, claiming it is part of Islamic teachings.[215] Some Indonesian officials, in March 2013, claimed cutting and pricking type circumcision is not FGM.[216]
Female genital mutilation Type I and IV is prevalent in Indonesia;[204][205][206][207] 97.5%[207] of females from Muslim families (at least 85%[208] of females in Indonesia) are mutilated by age 18. In certain communities of Indonesia, mass female circumcision (khitanan massal) ceremony are organized by local Islamic foundations around Prophet Muhammad’s birthday. Some FGM are Type IV done with a pen knife, others are Type I done with scissors. Two Indonesian nationwide studies in 2003 and 2010 found over 80% of the cases sampled involved cutting, typically of newborns through the age of 9. The surveys demonstrated that circumcision among girls and boys is a universal practice in the study sites, in all of which Islam was the primary religion. Across the sites, among all the children aged 15–18, 86-100% of the girls were reported already circumcised. More than 90% of families visited in the studies claimed they wanted the practice to continue.[205][209] Historical records suggest female circumcision in Indonesia started and became prevalent with the arrival of Islam in the 13th century as part of its drive to convert people to Islam. In islands of Indonesia, where partial populations converted to Islam in the 17th century, FGM has been prevalent in Muslim females only.[210][211] In 2006, FGM was banned by the government; however, FGM/C remained commonplace for women in Indonesia - the world’s largest Muslim nation.[212] In 2010, the Indonesian Health Ministry issued a decree outlining the proper procedure for FGM, which activists claim contradicted the 2006 ruling prohibiting clinics from performing any FGM.[213] In 2013, the Indonesian Ulema Council ruled that it favors FGM, stating that although it is not mandatory, it is still “morally recommended”.[214] The Ulema has been pushing Indonesian government to circumcise girls, claiming it is part of Islamic teachings.[215] Some Indonesian officials, in March 2013, claimed cutting and pricking type circumcision is not FGM.[216]
Malaysia
Female genital mutilation Type I and IV is prevalent in Malaysia, where 93%[217][218] of females from Muslim families (at least 57% of the female population[219]) have been mutilated.[220][221][222] It is widely considered as a female sunnah tradition (sunat perempuan), typically done by midwife (mak bidan). It is either a prick (Type IV) or cutting off a small piece of the highest part of clitoral hood and foreskin (Type I).[223] Malaysian women claim religious obligation (82%) as the primary reason for female circumcision, with hygiene (41%) and cultural practice (32%) as other major motivators for FGM prevalence.[220][223] Malaysia is a multicultural society, FGM is prevalent in Muslim community, and not observed in its minority Buddhist and Hindu communities.[223][224] Malaysia has no laws in reference to FGM.[225] The Malaysian government sponsored 86th conference of Malaysia’s Fatwa Committee National Council of Islamic Religious Affairs held in April 2009 decided that female circumcision is part of Islamic teachings and it should be observed by Muslims, with the majority of the jurists in the Committee concluding that female circumcision is obligatory (wajib). However, the fatwa noted harmful circumcision methods are to be avoided.[226] In 2012, Malaysian government health ministry proposed guidelines to reclassify and allow female circumcision as a medical practice.[227]
Female genital mutilation Type I and IV is prevalent in Malaysia, where 93%[217][218] of females from Muslim families (at least 57% of the female population[219]) have been mutilated.[220][221][222] It is widely considered as a female sunnah tradition (sunat perempuan), typically done by midwife (mak bidan). It is either a prick (Type IV) or cutting off a small piece of the highest part of clitoral hood and foreskin (Type I).[223] Malaysian women claim religious obligation (82%) as the primary reason for female circumcision, with hygiene (41%) and cultural practice (32%) as other major motivators for FGM prevalence.[220][223] Malaysia is a multicultural society, FGM is prevalent in Muslim community, and not observed in its minority Buddhist and Hindu communities.[223][224] Malaysia has no laws in reference to FGM.[225] The Malaysian government sponsored 86th conference of Malaysia’s Fatwa Committee National Council of Islamic Religious Affairs held in April 2009 decided that female circumcision is part of Islamic teachings and it should be observed by Muslims, with the majority of the jurists in the Committee concluding that female circumcision is obligatory (wajib). However, the fatwa noted harmful circumcision methods are to be avoided.[226] In 2012, Malaysian government health ministry proposed guidelines to reclassify and allow female circumcision as a medical practice.[227]
I could add a couple of things, but as long as wiki isn´t terribly wrong (which happens from time to time) there is little ambiguity about the connection between FGM and Islam.
I don't exactly know if sharia promotes discrimination of women as I don't know every bit of the laws inside and out. even if it doesn't, it's still extremely backwards, doesn't belong in the 21st century, and should be done away with for good.
Because tastes good
The more the merrier.
Shit, sorry, you're quite right, of course. That's really weird. I was never aware of this growing up. I'm not sure if it's expanded a lot in recent times or its more prevalent in the countryside areas. You're absolutely right, sorry.
It's weird though because I get completely different data on this from different websites. This is the map I was thinking of earlier, from UNICEF apparently:
But as you point out there are many and well-corroborated accounts of this in SE Asia. What the procedure involves seems to vary from source to source - just a needle prick in some, removal of the clitoral hood in others, just rubbing it with tumeric for symbolic others in yet others.
Thanks for correcting me, though.
No need to apologise. I was the exact same, had no idea FGM was even a thing growing up and just by the off chance a few years ago I caught a BBC Newsnight documentary on the subject.
It's here for anyone who wants to watch it
So I sort of knew Reza Aslan was talking rubbish. Although my knowledge on the subject isn't really anything more than a quick Google and watching some documentaries, I try not to know too much about the subject as it's depressing as feck.
Been listening to some documentaries about Saladin, the knights Templar, the Crusades. Fascinating stuff really but also shows how fecked up it was back then.
The christian crusaders were a blood thirsty group while Saladin was somewhat merciful.
The corruption in the church back then was crazy.
Wonder how much of those times are influencing today's problems?
The christian crusaders were a blood thirsty group while Saladin was somewhat merciful.
The corruption in the church back then was crazy.
Wonder how much of those times are influencing today's problems?
Yup. Not to mention an incredibly wishy washy believer who openly dismisses most of the Quran. Which isn't something I'd usually have a problem with, but since he's made his name off being "the worlds most verbose Muslim" I think it's a tad amusing he wouldn't be considered one by the vast majority of his brethren. Though he's one of the very few people who've benefitted greatly by being so in the wake of terror attacks.
He's basically a muslim of convenience. A cynical career believer.
women arent treated 100% equal to men anywhere in the world including the developed world. i think the point hes trying to make is that they are treated as well as they are in the developed world. the way saudis treat women isnt the way all muslims all over the world treat women. the fact that you think you dont need to be a scholar to comment on things say a lot about you as well.
But I doubt that's true. Women in the places he used as examples (Bangladesh, Indonesia, Malaysia), aren't treated as well as they are in the developed wold, unless you pick a really low standard of a country in the west as an example. Not sure I get your last sentence either.
@Neutral, @Sultan I think the question is related to the wide possibilities of textual interpretation. It seems that you can argue both ways- for example, the ISIS has introduced the jizya in some places with a Christian population simply by applying what they are reading from the text. That's a fact. The reason why it has zero relevance for Muslims in the West is because the Muslims are not only in minority but they also do not have the rule and authority. Should they have it, it would be only logical to apply that principle as written in the Quran.
The same principle, however, is not applied in Saudi Arabia -as far as I know- so any foreign, Western workers who happen to be Christian do not have to pay the jizya there. I don't know what the official ruling is in this case but it demonstrates that you don't have to apply the text in reality. At the same time, however, they are still using beheading and stoning as a method of punishment, which is perfectly justifiable in the Islamic law and it's been understood literally.
So it seems that there is some room to play when it comes to interpretation. Same with following the precepts of Mohammad, meaning that you do not have to necessarily do as he did.
It's still corrupt.
Look around at how many muslim majority countries are actually Islamic states. And then in how many of those countries is Sharia Law practiced?
Islamic jurisprudence is a seriously complicated matter and I am by no means an Islamic scholar - and I actually fear getting into these issues online. The internet is full of incorrect information - The last thing I want to do is perpetuate the dissemination of incorrect info.
Your whole argument is flawed without any statistical backing. you cant make an argument on the basis of what you 'feel'. what index are you using for measuring gender inequality. women are paid less than men per dollar in the states. they are raped more per capita in the US compared to indonesia malaysia bangladesh.
Moreover you cant distinguish the fact that these countries are also developing countries. if we took any developing state irrespective of the religious inclinations of the majority there would be gender inequality (this is not to say that developed states dont have that). you are trying to link social backwardness with religion without having proof if there is more inequality and you are not considering other confounding factors.
Human beings aren't treated as well in the developing world let alone women.
Again - this is a tangent and this both makes and goes against my arguments
There are more muslims from elsewhere in the world than the Middle East, yet it is the standard to which most muslims are held.
Speaking of gender equality
Criteria
The Global Gender Gap Index 2015 - World Economic Forum ranks 145 economies according to how well they are leveraging their female talent pool, based on economic, educational, health-based and political indicators.
http://reports.weforum.org/global-gender-gap-report-2015/rankings/
For example - since, Bangladesh has come up - in terms of gender equality - Bangladesh ranks No.64.
Not great...but not too shabby. Not when you consider
87. Greece
101. Japan
108. India
However - most of the bottom 20-25 nations are Muslim majority nations and they are almost all either in the ME and Africa.
As with so much else - Religion doesn't necessarily have to be a drawback. There are a zillion mosques in Bangladesh, you can barely move half a mile without seeing one. And things are by no means perfect (not even close) - but people here have been able to on the whole reconcile their faith and progress.
@Neutral, my question should have come out much simpler. Here it is, when you read the Koran and when you read the texts which call out to slay the unbelievers wherever they are etc, and when you think about the offensive wars led by Mohammad and by the murders he committed, do you immediately dismiss that text and consciously decide that you do not agree with it, and that you will not under any circumstances ever emulate the life of Mohammad? I am just curious about the thought process and the attitude you have towards the text and the leading figure. (I am sometimes thinking about my attitude towards the biblical texts but I guess it's easier as I don't believe that the scriptures were handed down word for word by God but that they were simply written by humans who reflected on their experiences and that particular time)
You come out with some right old shite sometimes.
You do know the wars he fought were defensive right? The Meccans came down to Yathrib to fight the Muslims, not the other way round. But don't let facts get in the way of your agenda.
'Murders he committed'
On the same tangent - What's your opinion on Moses (AS) and the Egyptian man he killed?
You come out with some right old shite sometimes.
You do know the wars he fought were defensive right? The Meccans came down to Yathrib to fight the Muslims, not the other way round. But don't let facts get in the way of your agenda.
'Murders he committed'
On the same tangent - What's your opinion on Moses (AS) and the Egyptian man he killed?
Okay, so every single war and every single raid was always defensive and never offensive. I've read otherwise.
Moses' killing of the Egyptian man was murder.
I accept your apology.
That wasn't an apology, just a clarification. Based on what I've read Muhammad waged offensive wars, killed, ordered killing, and ordered the subjugation of non-muslims who could only survive by accepting the islamic rule and by paying their taxes. So in comparison to Christ, as the NT describes him, who orders his disciples not to engage in armed conflict, who orders to forgive your enemy, and who actually forgives those who were about to kill him, that just makes a huge difference. There's just no ambiguity there. In fact since you guys believe he was a prophet you should rather follow his example than that of Mohammad.
You guys do know that there are other excellent human beings whose lives we can emulate outside of the two Middle Eastern men from eons ago, no?
That's a nice thing though. If there is a hope for Islam to ever get reformed, I think that we need more open-minded scholars who don't think that every line of Quran should count.
I think that Aslan is the most moderate Muslim scholar. Yes, he might be a fraud and an oppurtunist, but he is better than the alternatives (for example the likes of the nutters like Rafiq Naik).
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Oh I agree completely. I generally quite like him in fact, he's mostly harmless and well meaning. But he's a bit disingenuous in that he's made his bones rebuking people for criticising the stricter elements of Islam that he himself dismisses. Often with misinformation.
So while he may be the ideal secular Muslim (To us westerners) he's also a poster child for apologism of its dodgier fringe aspects.
Can the people asking for reform in Islam please tell me which sect needs reform - all of them/a few/which ones and why?
Its clearly a knee jerk reaction to what's happened in Paris. This implies that people actually believe that ISIS and extremism in general has more to do with religion than other factors such as - geopolitical factors, poverty, lack of education, the need for power, control and the influence of western powers. No...its simple its all the fault of religion (read Islam) and this particular religion needs reform. If this isn't islamophobia I don't knows what is.
Its clearly a knee jerk reaction to what's happened in Paris. This implies that people actually believe that ISIS and extremism in general has more to do with religion than other factors such as - geopolitical factors, poverty, lack of education, the need for power, control and the influence of western powers. No...its simple its all the fault of religion (read Islam) and this particular religion needs reform. If this isn't islamophobia I don't knows what is.
For a start, Sharia law (a lot of coutries use it) should completely be dismissed as some bizarre 'law' who belongs in medieval.
Knee jerk reaction to Paris?.. You have to be joking. Calling "Islamaphobia" on everyone and everything is a clear deflection tactic. So everyone mocking the pope and the catholic church, are they "Cathalophobic"??. It stops people from engaging in the important discussions.
"There might be something wrong with your religion/worldviews".
"No, you are a racist/Islamaphobic, Our religion is perfect, I am not going to listen to you".