Religion, what's the point?

Bebe said:
To answer the first question..not really. I'm not sure what sort of evidence would even make sense. I suppose you could have God or whichever deity appear in the sky or something, but that would rather remove the challenge of faith I think. On a less ridiculous note, the lack of geological evidence for say Noah's flood for me indicates that certain stories/myths in religious texts are probably at least partially allegorical, possibly appropriated from earlier versions or faiths.

As for there no longer being miracles in modern times, it's certainly a question but not one I worry about. Personally, I've always seen it as humanity initially needing guidance or to be awed in a different time. Ie if you're going to claim to be the supreme ruler of existence, you'll probably need to prove your claim to an extent by doing some cool things one wouldn't normally see. I think the presence of miracles in modern times wouldn't make much sense. We're no longer impressed by natural phenomena, ascribing lightning strikes to deities and so on. Certainly in my religion (Islam), there is an overriding theme of "Here's the Quran and Muhammad. This is the last book, he's the last messenger, you have all the guidance you need and now its entirely up to you as to what you do with it". If the idea is that God has created humans with intelligence, then at some point he's going to have to "let go of the reins" so that we can use that intelligence on our own and come to our own conclusions without interference or intervention by way of apocalyptic scenarios, miraculous wonders etc. Sort of like parenting, where a young child will be reminded and reprimanded in obvious ways.

Alternatively, if you go with the "miracles are allegories" approach then its immediately obvious why there are no miracles today, as there never were any to begin with, or at least they were all explicable within natural laws.

As for the quiet little voice...well I personally often if not always have doubts. I was raised in a fairly secular household (Muslim in name but not in practice to any significant extent) and always had serious misgivings about religion in general. But it's only one voice, and there are others equally important and persuasive imo. For instance, there has also always been a voice saying "Existence is more than math and probability. Love, divinity, beauty, transcendence etc are all real, not merely made up in our own minds". I've always been more drawn to Buddha type figures than say Galileo, for example. The challenge, at least in my opinion, is to reconcile all the voices into a consensus that allows one to be the best version of themselves. Through my late teens/early twenties I realized that religion could play a vital role in furthering this goal if only I allowed it. Much easier said than done of course, but the little voice of reason no longer protests the idea of religion in my mind.

Apologies for writing a wall of text to answer a 3 line post.
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Thank you for the thought out answer. I'd like to ask a follow up if you don't mind. What are your thoughts on the day of resurrection / day of judgement stuff in the Quran? It is a core belief of the religion I think and one that would certainly entail a whole lot of miracles etc.
 
Mockney said:
That's an understandable view tbf. Honest and interesting, and like @Wibble I thank you for sharing it. The only thing I'd quibble with is the point of Islam itself in such an outlook. Not as a singularly destructive belief or anything (The Old Testament is easily the most malicious mainstream religious text) but as an interchangeable stand-in for any organised religion, which seems to me a needless fall back option for anyone with a Deist predilection.

The idea that there's more to life is universal. It's why religions exist in the first place. It's why heaven and hell existed in Paganism (and why Christianity appropriated them for a Jewish cult that omitted the idea) But what I think Wibble was more angling for (feel free to correct me Wibbs) is why followers of certain religions feel duty bound to attach their natural cosmic curiosity to particular, anachronistic, largely geographically defined variations of fantastical era-specific myths. Myths that can be easily debunked, yet often still fail to dent faith in the ideas they prop up.

Someone as savvy as yourself will surely be aware that if you were born in another age and another place, you'd likely be following a different religion. Or at the very least, a different form of your current one. So if your belief is more spiritual than scriptural, why the loyalty?

Thats the "little voice" I'm interested in. Not the voice that says "is there some kind of God?" - because we all have that - but the voice that says "Am I truly convinced it's this one? This one version of this one God, in our long history of defunct Gods, who wants these very specific things of this one species on this one tiny planet in this vast, unknowable creation of his, who I was just lucky enough to culturally inherit?"

It's all very well saying you're savvy enough to see the miracles as allegorical, but without the miracles there's no authority. Without divinity, they're just ideas to be taken or left. Jesus, or Moses, or Muhammed are just Iron Age Russell Brands. Which is fine with me, 'cos at least his ideas can be challenged, and dismissed as human opinion.

The whole "if he appeared in the Sky" thing is never gonna happen. But what if, slightly less fancifully, we found life on another planet? Would that shake your belief in an earth obsessive Middle Eastophile God? A God that created us in his image with no other purpose but to try and get on his after-party guest list? What if we found an advanced alien civilisation who worshiped an even more abstract being? Would that change your view of God? Or would you still try to augment it to fit into your already culturally established Muslim view of Him?

Because none of that would challenge the idea that "Existence is more than math and probability."..But it would challenge the idea that our current, populist Abrahamic idea of God was viable. And we'd do what we should've done decades ago, and we've done hundreds of times before, from Thor to Zeus to Jesus to Muhammad to Joseph sodding Smith, and remodel the idea to better suit our time and knowledge. But that kind of progress is incompatible with any current form of religion.

Apologies for answering your wall of text with an even longer wall of text.
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Thanks for the response @Mockney . I foresee another wall of text coming...

You're in all likelihood correct in that had I been born into a Buddhist, Jewish etc family I would probably have the same basic outlook on religion or divinity as a whole, but follow the religion of my parents. Which poses the question "How can I see my faith as being the ONE FAITH (as they all claim) while acknowledging that by changing one condition of my life I would see another faith as being the ONE FAITH?". I suppose the simple answer is I don't really see Islam as being exalted above other religions. Which in itself would be a blasphemous statement in the eyes of many Muslims, but there you have it. There's plenty of wisdom to be found in other faiths, and I think it would be incredibly misguided to disregard that wisdom based on it coming from a non Islamic source.

So why follow one specific religion while acknowledging that it probably isn't so unique from any of the others? For me it almost has more to do with results than anything else. I find that by attempting to live my life in accordance with Islamic values, practicing rituals (like daily prayer) and so on is incredibly beneficial to my life. My thoughts are more positive, I find it easier to be patient, kind, compassionate etc with others, and perhaps most importantly I feel a sense of purpose and direction. And the more I practice these things, the more of those benefits seem to come. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the structure of Islam is important for me, and that structure is something I don't think a general theist disposition provides.

Might a different religion (especially had I been born to different parents) provide similar benefits? Possibly. In fact I'd even say probably. But I don't think it really matters, as I've already found something that, at least at this stage in my life, seems to be working. Of course one could easily look at daily prayer and say "well yeah, there's plenty of scientific evidence to back up ritualized actions being beneficial. Why is kneeling on a rug different from meditation or yoga?". It's a valid question, but I just don't really care about the answer. Maybe some people are meant to find God through those activities instead. Maybe everyone praying or meditating isn't finding God, but just a sense of contentment through self reflection. In the end, both groups would seem to end up in a similar place. You may be right in characterizing the world's various faiths as interchangeable, but at least for me it's far more than a needless fall back. I'd say its more the codification and confirmation of that deist predilection. It's the commitment to Islam that takes the "There must be something else out there" feeling and turns it into a drive for self improvement (for me at least).
 
Desert Eagle said:
Thank you for the thought out answer. I'd like to ask a follow up if you don't mind. What are your thoughts on the day of resurrection / day of judgement stuff in the Quran? It is a core belief of the religion I think and one that would certainly entail a whole lot of miracles etc.
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Don't mind in the slightest. Could you be more specific though? It's a rather big topic and I'm not entirely sure what you're asking. Do you mean the actual event itself? Or the afterlife concept in general with Heaven/Hell etc?
 
Bebe said:
Don't mind in the slightest. Could you be more specific though? It's a rather big topic and I'm not entirely sure what you're asking. Do you mean the actual event itself? Or the afterlife concept in general with Heaven/Hell etc?
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Sure what are your views on the afterlife? Do you believe in the prophecies of the Quran?
 
Heaven and hell - the stupidest myths of them all. Created to sooth the sadness of lost ones (you'll rejoin them in heaven and sing hymns!) and hell created to show mankind that evildoers will be punished - forever!
 
MrMarcello said:
Heaven and hell - the stupidest myths of them all. Created to sooth the sadness of lost ones (you'll rejoin them in heaven and sing hymns!) and hell created to show mankind that evildoers will be punished - forever!
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It's a more pernicious scam than the Nigerian 419.
 
MrMarcello said:
Heaven and hell - the stupidest myths of them all. Created to sooth the sadness of lost ones (you'll rejoin them in heaven and sing hymns!) and hell created to show mankind that evildoers will be punished - forever!
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The biblical idea is actually that there will be a restored, new earth. Nobody is going to live in some clouds in the sky. Also, the evildoers will not be punished forever. The 'duration of their non-existence', so to speak, will be eternal.
 
Mihajlovic said:
The biblical idea is actually that there will be a restored, new earth. Nobody is going to live in some clouds in the sky. Also, the evildoers will not be punished forever. The 'duration of their non-existence', so to speak, will be eternal.
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But it is eternal depending on your interpretation of the bible, either way. Also, what is heaven then if we are just going to be resurrected with a new earth? I thought Christianity didn't believe in resurrection?
 
Mihajlovic said:
Nobody is going to live in some clouds in the sky.
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250
 
Mihajlovic said:
The biblical idea is actually that there will be a restored, new earth. Nobody is going to live in some clouds in the sky. Also, the evildoers will not be punished forever. The 'duration of their non-existence', so to speak, will be eternal.
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Catholic theology is that the corporeal body decays (ashes to ashes, dust to dust) and the soul which is spirit remains as a 'glorified body'.
 
Desert Eagle said:
Sure what are your views on the afterlife? Do you believe in the prophecies of the Quran?
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Sorry, I forgot to answer this. Another question where I can't say anything definitively. I might say one thing on a given day, then something else a week later. But its actually not something I give a lot of thought. The way I see it we have absolutely no clue as to what, if anything, happens to a person when they die. Either its advisable to live a "good" life because it'll get one into heaven, or there's actually no afterlife at all and it thus becomes advisable to live a "good" life and create that heaven-state on Earth, in a "kingdom of heaven is within" kind of way. So once again it becomes a bit immaterial whether one takes things allegorically, literally, or some combination of the two. No matter what its still probably a good idea to live as ethical/moral a life as possible.

I realize that's a bit of a non answer, but it is the best I personally can give. I would say that the idea of Hell as an eternal agony doesn't strike me as consistent with the "infinite mercy" narrative.
 
I'm surprised you think it is immaterial whether a person does good out of wanting to create a better world or because they think it'll get them into heaven. Anyways I think you're already a moderate who uses their core ethics as a foundation for your actions rather than strict ancient guidelines and for that I applaud you.
 
I kinda hope there is a heaven of sorts. I would like to see my cat, Tiger, and many of my dogs that have passed on throughout my 39 years. Could care less about family members.
 
Redlambs said:
I like that now with the internet and all that Atheists suddenly get accused of ranting now their voices are heard more.

I travel a lot and have had the pleasure of running into loads of religious nuts shouting in city centres (in my local one there's a group from the church in the centre who do it every weekend in different parts), but not a single atheist. Funny that!
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You know what, I actually don't mind those people. At least they're giving the impression that they're so concerned about non-belivers burning in hell for eternity that they're willing to go out there, drop any sense of shame or embarrassment & look like raving lunatics in the street in the hope they might save some people from such a fate. It's the quiet smiler's that worry me, they seem to happily live out their lives quite content with the fact that millions of good living people including some of their friends and family members will burn in agony forever after they die, not only that but also act quite smug about it. Could you imagine actually beleiving that shit, I'd be at my wits end.
 
peterstorey said:
Well like a lot of religious belief the more you analyse it the more ludicrous (and spuriously invented) it gets.
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That's just your opinion. For many people the more they analize the better it gets. Strange how molecules in motion which make up our brains bring us to different conclusions.
 
Mihajlovic said:
That's just your opinion. For many people the more they analize the better it gets. Strange how molecules in motion which make up our brains bring us to different conclusions.
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Not if you apply logic rather than wish fulfilment.
 
ArmandTamzarian said:
You know what, I actually don't mind those people. At least they're giving the impression that they're so concerned about non-belivers burning in hell for eternity that they're willing to go out there, drop any sense of shame or embarrassment & look like raving lunatics in the street in the hope they might save some people from such a fate. It's the quiet smiler's that worry me, they seem to happily live out their lives quite content with the fact that millions of good living people including some of their friends and family members will burn in agony forever after they die, not only that but also act quite smug about it. Could you imagine actually beleiving that shit, I'd be at my wits end.
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Alan Watts, the clever populariser of eastern philosophy, once said that people don't really believe in Christianity and such. If they did they would be screaming in the streets.
 
peterstorey said:
Nope.
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His book Thinking Fast & Slow is worth a gander. He's probably done as much research on rationality as anyone. He's a likeable chap even in print and the studies he did are funny. In a nutshell - humans aren't all that rational, and our genuinely rational thinking is a limited resource.

Review, Amazon link.
 
Bebe said:
To answer the first question..not really. I'm not sure what sort of evidence would even make sense. I suppose you could have God or whichever deity appear in the sky or something, but that would rather remove the challenge of faith I think. On a less ridiculous note, the lack of geological evidence for say Noah's flood for me indicates that certain stories/myths in religious texts are probably at least partially allegorical, possibly appropriated from earlier versions or faiths.
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Good post all round, but, get off the fence. Probably? Partially? Absolutely.

I'd never considered the lack of miracles in the last 2,000 years and those practicing religion would view them. I'd be interested to hear from anyone else on why that might be and how it ties in with their belief...
 
bishblaize said:
In a nutshell - humans aren't all that rational, and our genuinely rational thinking is a limited resource.
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That's no surprise in the everyday domain where we are driven by emotion, instinct, habit or whim. I usually drink bitter - last time I went to the pub I drank Guinness for no particular reason. When he examines thinking as he does he does it in a logical, rational way.
 
For me it's simple.

We, as human beings, are a result of mere coincidence, a result of changes that happened to chemicals, primitive life forms evolving to animals, primates and then humans as we know them. A by-product of evolution.

or

we are something more. Part of something bigger and better.

When you consider art, music, love, wars, economy,sports i think we are something better, we are an imperfect reflection of something really beautiful.


Why do i need religion? I guess it's cementing my life, it gives other perspective, different set values.

I guess you either need it or you don't. Simple.
 
A world without religion would be a much better place.

Kind of ironic that most religions are about peace and acceptance yet its the number 1 cause of the major problems around the world.

It is really worrying how in this day and age many people get brainwashed into believing this tripe.
 
dannyrhinos89 said:
A world without religion would be a much better place.

Kind of ironic that most religions are about peace and acceptance yet its the number 1 cause of the major problems around the world.

It is really worrying how in this day and age many people get brainwashed into believing this tripe.
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Or could have been a much worse place
 
dannyrhinos89 said:
A world without religion would be a much better place.

You have no way of knowing that.

Kind of ironic that most religions are about peace and acceptance yet its the number 1 cause of the major problems around the world.

No it's certainly not.

It is really worrying how in this day and age many people get brainwashed into believing this tripe.
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No need to be worried in this day and age, go to your local church, I'm sure they'll pray for you.
 
Sky1981 said:
Or could have been a much worse place
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Doubt it, the cause of war and terrorism is just caused by the extremist groups within certain religions. If religion didn't exist these people wouldn't exist or have the extremist views in the way they do now.
 
dannyrhinos89 said:
Doubt it, the cause of war and terrorism is just caused by the extremist groups within certain religions. If religion didn't exist these people wouldn't exist in the way they do now.
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There are many things bad things the world stop doing in the name of humanity and religion as well

EDIT: It's like saying that the world's a better place without guns
 
Perhaps the cynic would argue the world would be a much better place without people.
 
Mihajlovic said:
Perhaps the cynic would argue the world would be a much better place without people.
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Aah, now there's a tough one.

For one, we're currently managing to feck up the biosphere of the only known planet to have ever originated life. For virtually the rest of the species on earth, our demise would be a good thing.
 
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