Religion, what's the point?

[nimic]

Rednev, I appreciate you wasting one of your last posts on little me. Yes, it is true that if I had been born in Saudi Arabia I could be a muslim however I do not believe that Hebrew, Christian and Muslim faith can really be that far apart since we all call Abraham our father and that in fact all three faiths share some very common tenets. Of course they disagree on many more but if you are a disagreeable person than I find you tend to prefer to do that.

As I said, I'll be back, I may be some time but in the meantime if any of you want to keep the silly christian tied up all you need to do is find him some more vids to watch

As a side note on 16 mins through the vid I'm already finding out that Einstein back in 1929 was wrong by a factor of 10. Science has a way of developing doesn't it. As someone else points out we now have Dark Energy to think about. Who'd have realised that in 1929 eh? So, where did Dark Energy come from then? Is there the same amount of Dark Energy that there always will be? More vids please!

I think the video might say something about that. I'm not sure, as there's a few similar ones to this.

There are a few other videos with Larwence Krauss on Youtube, look them up. It's also always interesting to watch Neil deGrasse Tyson.

 

[Jimy_Hills_Chin]

As a side note on 16 mins through the vid I'm already finding out that Einstein back in 1929 was wrong by a factor of 10. Science has a way of developing doesn't it. As someone else points out we now have Dark Energy to think about. Who'd have realised that in 1929 eh? So, where did Dark Energy come from then? Is there the same amount of Dark Energy that there always will be? More vids please!

Don't worry Oates. I am sure that within the next 200 years science will have come full circle and discovered that God did in fact create the heavens and the earth in 7 days, as per the story of genesis.

We just seem to be on a rather complex side track at the moment. Science will eat itself.

 

[oates]

I don't owe you any answers. And I'm merely pointing out your flawed logic and double standard. If that's patronizing then so be it.

And the converse is true. I suggest we don't bother interacting with each other if we are to hold this maxim to be true. I wish you well Saliph, I'm sure our differences are not so great that we could not enjoy the things we agree on.

 

[oates]

Don't worry Oates. I am sure that within the next 200 years science will have come full circle and discovered that God did in fact create the heavens and the earth in 7 days, as per the story of genesis.

We just seem to be on a rather complex side track at the moment. Science will eat itself.

I'm hopeful that one day we'll have all the answers.

 

[Revan]

As a side note on 16 mins through the vid I'm already finding out that Einstein back in 1929 was wrong by a factor of 10. Science has a way of developing doesn't it. As someone else points out we now have Dark Energy to think about. Who'd have realised that in 1929 eh? So, where did Dark Energy come from then? Is there the same amount of Dark Energy that there always will be? More vids please!

I cannot see the video now (at work :S). Anyway, it is a popular theory that the amount of dark energy is growing with the expansion of universe (and is created from nothing). So, although it is still a theory it is very possible that it is true, which means that something could possibly be created from nothing.

A good article on that is here

Also about Big Bang, there is really quite possible that nothing existed before it, simply because there is not such a thing as simple 'time' but is a more 'time-space' concept. And if there was no space, then it wasn't time too.

 

[nimic]

Hence, time travel at approaching the speed of light!

 

[oates]

I cannot see the video now (at work :S). Anyway, it is a popular theory that the amount of dark energy is growing with the expansion of universe (and is created from nothing). So, although it is still a theory it is very possible that it is true, which means that something could possibly be created from nothing.

A good article on that is here

Also about Big Bang, there is really quite possible that nothing existed before it, simply because there is not such a thing as simple 'time' but is a more 'time-space' concept. And if there was no space, then it wasn't time too.

Well I've had to stop on 49 minutes of the vid for the moment because there are quite a lot of things to consider. It is interesting that scientists can call dark energy nothing when it clearly could be "something". It allows the theoretical and observational premise that the universe is flat although the measurement is becoming (at the moment) along a straight line with a 1 degree error forming possibly the beginning of a curve? Has the universe finished expanding? - No. Will it eventually be curved? Given time. But it allows for positive energy and negative energy (Dark Energy/"Nothing") to cancel each other out into Zero (0). And that meanwhile this allows for us (life on this planet but more importantly the Universe as it is now), to exist perfectly but not for ever. Intelligent design though is ridiculous. The Universe is moving apart exponentially faster. So of course when Lawrence Krauss is asked where did Dark Energy come from I haven't yet heard him answer, possibly in the next 13 minutes...

Where does Time come from? Ughhhh!

 

[nimic]

The reason he doesn't say where dark energy comes from is because we have no fecking idea. We're essentially clueless when it comes to dark energy and dark matter. All we know is that it relates to the accelerating expansion of the Universe, pretty much. Oh, and that it exists. We know they exist.

We're living in very exciting times!

 

[Revan]

Well I've had to stop on 49 minutes of the vid for the moment because there are quite a lot of things to consider. It is interesting that scientists can call dark energy nothing when it clearly could be "something". It allows the theoretical and observational premise that the universe is flat although the measurement is becoming (at the moment) along a straight line with a 1 degree error forming possibly the beginning of a curve? Has the universe finished expanding? - No. Will it eventually be curved? Given time. But it allows for positive energy and negative energy (Dark Energy/"Nothing") to cancel each other out into Zero (0). And that meanwhile this allows for us (life on this planet but more importantly the Universe as it is now), to exist perfectly but not for ever. Intelligent design though is ridiculous. The Universe is moving apart exponentially faster. So of course when Lawrence Krauss is asked where did Dark Energy come from I haven't yet heard him answer, possibly in the next 13 minutes...

Where does Time come from? Ughhhh!

I cannot comment on the first part before I watch the video.

About your question, time-space and matter(energy) are linked between them and if you can annihilate one of them, then the others would disappear too. Also, it is actually quite possible that time is just a property of space.

Cheers for intelligent design. It is one of the most stupidest concepts that exist.

 

[Revan]

The reason he doesn't say where dark energy comes from is because we have no fecking idea. We're essentially clueless when it comes to dark energy and dark matter. All we know is that it relates to the accelerating expansion of the Universe, pretty much. Oh, and that it exists. We know they exist.

We're living in very exciting times!

The sad thing is that personally I don't believe that physics will not have definite answers for Dark matter/energy and also for String theory during my lifetime.

 

[oates]

I cannot comment on the first part before I watch the video.

About your question, time-space and matter(energy) are linked between them and if you can annihilate one of them, then the others would disappear too. Also, it is actually quite possible that time is just a property of space.

Cheers for intelligent design. It is one of the most stupidest concepts that exist.

 

[oates]

The reason he doesn't say where dark energy comes from is because we have no fecking idea. We're essentially clueless when it comes to dark energy and dark matter. All we know is that it relates to the accelerating expansion of the Universe, pretty much. Oh, and that it exists. We know they exist.

We're living in very exciting times!

I'm sure there'll be a theory along eventually.

And every generation throughout history has probably thought that they were living in exciting times. I just read today about orphaned planets. Amazing.

 

[nimic]

Well yeah, but these times are extra interesting. We know just how much we don't know. That's the best part. People have declared science to be essentially over a few times in the last few centuries. We know there's a lot of stuff out there to be discovered. And even better than that, we're almost certain that we know how to discover some of them, in time.

Sometimes I'm quite sad that I didn't study physics instead of history. But then again, I love history. And I know just about enough physics to understand the important concepts. Let the other dudes do the hard work.

 

[Stemmy]

People should really stop calling it 'the big bang'. It wasn't an explosion nor was there any noise. Great or rapid expansion is more fitting.

 

[nimic]

The sad thing is that personally I don't believe that physics will not have definite answers for Dark matter/energy and also for String theory during my lifetime.

I wouldn't put dark energy/matter on the same level as string theory. String theory isn't really even a theory. It's just an idea. An idea with absolutely no actual evidence. At least we're almost entirely sure dark energy and matter are actual phenomenons.

I don't know how old you are, but I am quite optimistic on my own behalf. Not that I think we'll solve the meaning of the Universe any time soon, but our understanding of the fundamental forces of the Universe is really progressing at incredible speed in the last few decades. No doubt aided by our exponential advances in computer technology.

 

[nimic]

People should really stop calling it 'the big bang'. It wasn't an explosion nor was there any noise. Great or rapid expansion is more fitting.

That's a terrible name, though.

 

[Revan]

People should really stop calling it 'the big bang'. It wasn't an explosion nor was there any noise. Great or rapid expansion is more fitting.

The name is really misleading.

I wouldn't put dark energy/matter on the same level as string theory. String theory isn't really even a theory. It's just an idea. An idea with absolutely no actual evidence. At least we're almost entirely sure dark energy and matter are actual phenomenons.

I don't know how old you are, but I am quite optimistic on my own behalf. Not that I think we'll solve the meaning of the Universe any time soon, but our understanding of the fundamental forces of the Universe is really progressing at incredible speed in the last few decades. No doubt aided by our exponential advances in computer technology.

I am 21 mate. While I agree about that they are on the same level, on the other side I think that the String theory is in fact supported by most of the physicists.

Anyway, I think that we will get some results in these field, but still there will be a lot more to answer. I wouldn't exclude that there will be a redefining of physics laws in our lifetime too.

 

[OB]

Lastly, if there is a 'god' it would be nice if this god would actually ensure starving kids are fed, that amputees are healed, that disgusting violations of rape and molestation would be intervened prior to the act, and so much more.

You do not understand the point. This world we are living in is only a temporary world, and a test for the afterlife. There will be justice for all in the afterlife.

 

[Revan]

You do not understand the point. This world we are living in is only a temporary world, and a test for the afterlife. There will be justice for all in the afterlife.

With all respect, that is a pretty silly concept. A God that supposedly love humans, sends the majority of them in a very bad place for eternity. Only a Sadist God, or a God that thinks suffering is funny would do it.

 

[Jimy_Hills_Chin]

People should really stop calling it 'the big bang'. It wasn't an explosion nor was there any noise. Great or rapid expansion is more fitting.

Where is the sex appeal in 'The Great or Rapid Expansion'? It is all about the sex baby, 'The Big Bang' - get in.

 

[Stemmy]

Not 'the great or rapid expansion' but 'the great expansion' or 'rapid expansion'.

Point is though the big bang is a misleading name coined by the media to appeal but it gives a wrong impression of what happened. The layman thinks it's a big loud explosion in space when it isn't. Sex appeal be damned this is physics ffs

 

[OB]

With all respect, that is a pretty silly concept. A God that supposedly love humans, sends the majority of them in a very bad place for eternity. Only a Sadist God, or a God that thinks suffering is funny would do it.

Do you know the pleasures in afterlife if you have done what He has asked of you? As i said, this is a temporary world only. We are not here for eternity. The real world is the afterlife, and that is where we'd be for eternity.

 

[Moonwalker]

I think the video might say something about that. I'm not sure, as there's a few similar ones to this.

There are a few other videos with Larwence Krauss on Youtube, look them up. It's also always interesting to watch Neil deGrasse Tyson.

I don't think anyone with an ounce of self respect and conviction could ever be 'converted' by a youtube video. If that were to happen, I think I'd somehow think even less of the religious than I do now.


That being said, oates seems to have been a believer for quite some time now, but he looks completely new to the argument, as if he's reading all this for the first time ever. That's what his ridiculous questions would suggest. He doesn't understand his position very well.

He wants to say that guessing something is just as good a bet as not knowing. "We both don't know the answers, I'm just guessing there is a god and you're guessing that there isn't." These are equal propositions in his mind.

No oates, you aren't guessing anything. As a christian, you have to claim to know that there is a god, and not only that, but that you know his mind and what he wants of you. Something you have not a shred of evidence for. You have to claim to know more than a human can possibly know. And you better be right, because it's not a laughing matter, and many a life has been lost on this knowledge. Many 'witches' burnt, many scientists and infidels along with them.

You're claiming to know something you cannot possibly know.

On the other hand, most atheists would simply tell you that we don't know if there's a god or not, but that there isn't a convincing argument for one yet, hence no logical reason why we should believe.

These are not equal claims. Therefore you can't just flippantly dismiss the objection to your belief that you don't know who created god, with a silly remark that scientists don't know what came before the big bang either. Only one side claims to know. Scientists are happy to concede that there's a lot about the world that we don't know(yet). You simply don't have that luxury.

 

[Revan]

Do you know the pleasures in afterlife if you have done what He has asked of you? As i said, this is a temporary world only. We are not here for eternity. The real world is the afterlife, and that is where we'd be for eternity.

I know Omar, I have read both Quran and Bible. And I am convinced that they are just some outdated myths.

And I am convinced that this world is all we have, so I would better live it then thinking about an imaginary afterlife.

Edit: Why he didn't put us directly in heaven? He loves us right, win-win.

 

[PhilipB]

Do you know the pleasures in afterlife if you have done what He has asked of you? As i said, this is a temporary world only. We are not here for eternity. The real world is the afterlife, and that is where we'd be for eternity.

Which religion do you follow?

 

[Bebe]

I don't think anyone with an ounce of self respect and conviction could ever be 'converted' by a youtube video. If that were to happen, I think I'd somehow think even less of the religious than I do now.


That being said, oates seems to have been a believer for quite some time now, but he looks completely new to the argument, as if he's reading all this for the first time ever. That's what his ridiculous questions would suggest. He doesn't understand his position very well.

He wants to say that guessing something is just as good a bet as not knowing. "We both don't know the answers, I'm just guessing there is a god and you're guessing that there isn't." These are equal propositions in his mind.

No oates, you aren't guessing anything. As a christian, you have to claim to know that there is a god, and not only that, but that you know his mind and what he wants of you. Something you have not a shred of evidence for. You have to claim to know more than a human can possibly know. And you better be right, because it's not a laughing matter, and many a life has been lost on this knowledge. Many 'witches' burnt, many scientists and infidels along with them.

You're claiming to know something you cannot possibly know.

On the other hand, most atheists would simply tell you that we don't know if there's a god or not, but that there isn't a convincing argument for one yet, hence no logical reason why we should believe.

These are not equal claims. Therefore you can't just flippantly dismiss the objection to your belief that you don't know who created god, with a silly remark that scientists don't know what came before the big bang either. Only one side claims to know. Scientists are happy to concede that there's a lot about the world that we don't know(yet). You simply don't have that luxury.

I'm going to guess you're not a Christian. With that being established, what gives you the right to spell out in no uncertain terms what he believes? Even if you were a Christian actually, you still don't have that right. His right to believe in a creator, and to interpret the word/teachings of that creator as an individual is not something up for either debate or judgement (so long as it does not harm others).

 

[Revan]

I'm going to guess you're not a Christian. With that being established, what gives you the right to spell out in no uncertain terms what he believes? Even if you were a Christian actually, you still don't have that right. His right to believe in a creator, and to interpret the word/teachings of that creator as an individual is not something up for either debate or judgement (so long as it does not harm others).

That is the biggest problem, a problem that has happened during the entire course of history.

 

[Bebe]

Edit: Why he didn't put us directly in heaven? He loves us right, win-win.

Try and see it from the other perspective Ismail (sorry, I can only think of you by that name!). Just pretend you believe in an Creator whose power is absolute. From this mindset, guessing at Gods motives becomes a bit ridiculous, as such a being existing outside of time and space would be utterly incomprehensible to us. Thus, humans (as a lower or more limited form of existence, so to speak) suggesting we've got a better idea that God/Creator is similarly ridiculous.

 

[Revan]

Try and see it from the other perspective Ismail (sorry, I can only think of you by that name!). Just pretend you believe in an Creator whose power is absolute. From this mindset, guessing at Gods motives becomes a bit ridiculous, as such a being existing outside of time and space would be utterly incomprehensible to us. Thus, humans (as a lower or more limited form of existence, so to speak) suggesting we've got a better idea that God/Creator is similarly ridiculous.

I am not saying that I am smarter than God. Simply, God is omnipotent, he loves humans and he punishes us in the most possible severe way. I don't care what he thinks, but fire hurts. So, if he really loves us he wouldn't burn us.

feck it, I am starting a rebelation. Who's with me?

 

[JakeC]

My main problem with Atheism is what or who made the energy that caused the big bang?

My main problem with Theism, is who created God?

 

[Revan]

My main problem with Science is what or who made the energy that caused the big bang?

It isn't know yet, probably it was created from nothing and is very likely that we will never know it.

Anyway Science will try to find the answer.

My main problem with Theism, is who created God?

Are you mad? No-one created him, he existed from the beginning of time, even earlier.

 

[Moonwalker]

I'm going to guess you're not a Christian. With that being established, what gives you the right to spell out in no uncertain terms what he believes? Even if you were a Christian actually, you still don't have that right. His right to believe in a creator, and to interpret the word/teachings of that creator as an individual is not something up for either debate or judgement (so long as it does not harm others).

What a silly question. What you describe there is deism. Well, deism plus a set of optional and idiosyncratic beliefs. Supermarket religion in other words.

That has nothing to do with christianity. Unfortunately for him and anyone else who declares himself a christian, he doesn't have the luxury of picking and choosing beliefs as if they were groceries. Christianity entails certain beliefs(that are well known, that's the nature of the so called revealed truth), you either believe in them or you don't. There's no wiggle room.

 

[Jimy_Hills_Chin]

I am not saying that I am smarter than God. Simply, God is omnipotent, he loves humans and he punishes us in the most possible severe way. I don't care what he thinks, but fire hurts. So, if he really loves us he wouldn't burn us.

feck it, I am starting a rebelation. Who's with me?

We are smarter than 'God', at least the 'God' depicted in the texts of the Abrahamic religions. Human understanding of the universe and our existence has gone far beyond what 'God' supposedly imparted to the famous prophets.

There could be a creator, it seems unlikely, but it sure as hell isn't that dude in the Abrahamic texts.

 

[Revan]

We are smarter than 'God', at least the 'God' depicted in the texts of the Abrahamic religions. Human understanding of the universe and our existence has gone far beyond what 'God' supposedly imparted to the famous prophets.

There could be a creator, it seems unlikely, but it sure as hell isn't that dude in the Abrahamic texts.

He was actually dumb in holy books, but I was talking about an omniscient God (which supposedly is the God of Abraham, but let's forget the mistakes, who doesn't make them).

 

[OB]

I know Omar, I have read both Quran and Bible. And I am convinced that they are just some outdated myths.

And I am convinced that this world is all we have, so I would better live it then thinking about an imaginary afterlife.

Edit: Why he didn't put us directly in heaven? He loves us right, win-win.

Yes, He loves us, and He is merciful, and He is also just. For being just, he has to punish the wrongdoers.
If He'd just put us in Heaven, and IF He'd say there's no Hell, then this world itself would become hell.

Imagine you're taking an exam, and the teacher says, you study or don't study, you are going to pass, then would you study if you knew you'd just pass anyway?

 

[OB]

My main problem with Atheism is what or who made the energy that caused the big bang?

My main problem with Theism, is who created God?

It could go on in a loop forever and ever. It's an illogical question. You ask who created the Creator, then you'll ask who created the creator of the Creator, and so on and so on. So this is something irrational.

 

[Mockney]

It could go on in a loop forever and ever. It's an illogical question. You ask who created the Creator, then you'll ask who created the creator of the Creator, and so on and so on. So this is something irrational.

 

[Revan]

Yes, He loves us, and He is merciful, and He is also just. For being just, he has to punish the wrongdoers.
If He'd just put us in Heaven, and IF He'd say there's no Hell, then this world itself would become hell.

Imagine you're taking an exam, and the teacher says, you study or don't study, you are going to pass, then would you study if you knew you'd just pass anyway?

1) He's just? Hell no, he isn't. In Islam you can go in hell for making one time sex with someone you are not married. You can also make genocide, but if you really repent you would be forgiven. Anyway people died, some of them would go to hell and if you didn't kill them maybe they would have become better persons and actually go to heaven.

2) God is omniscient. Why he is making this stupid game? Is it really funny seeing all these things which he actually knew long ago before happened. He know if I am going to hell or heaven, why the torture?

3) Why this world? If we are for only some years here and then we will live for eternity in another world, why is this. Actually he know what will do in this live so why he is really making it reality. Is he trying to prove something?

4) Knowing that we will go to heaven, would not make this world hell. In fact there wouldn't be the point of this live, but still it would be better. We will all go and chill in heaven.

5) God loves us, why he don't make us better persons. Why he created Hitler although he knew what Hitler will do?

6) Even if I know that regardless of what I'll do I will go to heaven, still I will do exactly the same.

 

[Revan]

It could go on in a loop forever and ever. It's an illogical question. You ask who created the Creator, then you'll ask who created the creator of the Creator, and so on and so on. So this is something irrational.

See Thomas Aquinas, he said exactly the same. And he went to a conclusion, though it was a terrible one.

 

[OB]

1) He's just? Hell no, he isn't. In Islam you can go in hell for making one time sex with someone you are not married. You can also make genocide, but if you really repent you would be forgiven. Anyway people died, some of them would go to hell and if you didn't kill them maybe they would have become better persons and actually go to heaven.

2) God is omniscient. Why he is making this stupid game? Is it really funny seeing all these things which he actually knew long ago before happened. He know if I am going to hell or heaven, why the torture?

3) Why this world? If we are for only some years here and then we will live for eternity in another world, why is this. Actually he know what will do in this live so why he is really making it reality. Is he trying to prove something?

4) Knowing that we will go to heaven, would not make this world hell. In fact there wouldn't be the point of this live, but still it would be better. We will all go and chill in heaven.

5) God loves us, why he don't make us better persons. Why he created Hitler although he knew what Hitler will do?

6) Even if I know that regardless of what I'll do I will go to heaven, still I will do exactly the same.

Yes, He is just. He has made clear the right, from the wrong. And certainly those who do wrong will be punished. He only asks us to do what is right and good for us.
This world is a test as i stated earlier. There no justice if everyone is going to go to heaven. If it is like that, people would be stealing, doign wrong things, knowing that heaven is guaranteed. It would become hell in this way.
If you follow His word, certainly one would become a better person. As i said, he has given us all a choice, and our actions will be judged, not now, but in the afterlife.