Religion Discussion | Read the OP before posting

Like 2cents said, go for it. Have some belief. :)
Okay.

I'm a big fan of the New testament preachings such as love one another, do on to others as they would do on to you and let those without sin cast the first stone. And try to live my life by those edicts.

I will admit that I'm not a big fan of the old testament and struggle to align Jesus with some of the harsher judgements of the old testament.
 
Okay.

I'm a big fan of the New testament preachings such as love one another, do on to others as they would do on to you and let those without sin cast the first stone. And try to live my life by those edicts.

I will admit that I'm not a big fan of the old testament and struggle to align Jesus with some of the harsher judgements of the old testament.
I have no religion and do not want to break the rules of the thread, but when i had faith my approuch was this:
- i realized that even when the man receive a revelation his free will will not be supressed or he would be just a robot of flesh. Then even when God gives him His word, the man will mix it with his own psychology, nationalisms, culture and ignorance. This is why the old book looks so antagonistic to the New Testament.
- So what i did is to pick the general idea in the Old Testament, keep everything that was in agreement with the personality, the persona of Jesus and keep it. The rest was obsolete.
 
Okay.

I'm a big fan of the New testament preachings such as love one another, do on to others as they would do on to you and let those without sin cast the first stone. And try to live my life by those edicts.

I will admit that I'm not a big fan of the old testament and struggle to align Jesus with some of the harsher judgements of the old testament.

That makes sense to me (and I think it's a great thing). I don't mean to offend you by this next statement so take it with a pinch of salt. I think it's a case of people finding the parts of the scripture that fit their personal beliefs on life. The new testament is kinder and more forgiving and I think most people identify with that as something good and let that guide them (but I think folks have that goodness in them already and use the scripture to affirm their beliefs). On the flip side, their is plenty of horrific stuff that people have latched onto as well and used to justify really bad behavior so there are drawbacks.
 
Okay.

I'm a big fan of the New testament preachings such as love one another, do on to others as they would do on to you and let those without sin cast the first stone. And try to live my life by those edicts.

I will admit that I'm not a big fan of the old testament and struggle to align Jesus with some of the harsher judgements of the old testament.
The Old Testament is the history of the Jewish people and contains prophesies about the Messiah. The New Testament shows how Jesus fulfilled the prophesies, for all people.
 
The Old Testament is the history of the Jewish people and contains prophesies about the Messiah. The New Testament shows how Jesus fulfilled the prophesies, for all people.
Understood on all fronts there, but I do get where he’s coming from.

The personality (for lack of a better word) of the OT God vs NT God is strikingly different.
 
That makes sense to me (and I think it's a great thing). I don't mean to offend you by this next statement so take it with a pinch of salt. I think it's a case of people finding the parts of the scripture that fit their personal beliefs on life. The new testament is kinder and more forgiving and I think most people identify with that as something good and let that guide them (but I think folks have that goodness in them already and use the scripture to affirm their beliefs). On the flip side, their is plenty of horrific stuff that people have latched onto as well and used to justify really bad behavior so there are drawbacks.

If you listen to the New Testament you hear Jesus disagreeing with a lot of the things that the Pharisees say about the teachings of the old testament.

I think it is okay to accept the teachings of Jesus without listening to some of the harsher teachings of the Old Testament.

If you accept the 'let those without sin cast the first stone' part of the New Testament then you are pretty much forgoing some of the major teachings of the Old Testament.

You have to accept that Jesus was a revolutionary to believe what I do but the truth is he was.

Rome decided the workings of the Old and New testaments into a Bible as a way to control us. That was never Jesus' teaching. As long as you love one another as yourself then you are living by the words of Christ in my opinion.

Loving each other means everybody to me. People who believe and don't believe. Even people like Trump who are only out for themselves. I don't hate anybody. That might be a stretch after listening to some of my postings, especially about Jose but it is my belief.

The love others might be a stretch by people who read the whole of the bible but you have to accept that that was put together by Rome not Jesus to believe my take on religion. Jesus never had a bad word to say about anybody except those trying to turn his fathers religion to their favour.
 
Granted, the authors of the 4 books of the “gospel” never expected the other ‘books’ to be compiled together in one text.
Yeah, they really should have gone through a QC/editorial process when the combined all of the gospels. Now you end up with great charts like this showing all of the contradictions: http://bibviz.com/
 
To me, this is an endlessly fascinating subject no matter what the truth happens to be...though I really dislike the recent trend of considering religious devotion as mental aberration:

God on the brain: is religion just a step away from mental illness?

'Did God create us or did we create God? Were a famous evangelist's "visions" caused by epilepsy, and are religious feelings brain malfunctions?


T
HE VIVIDNESS OF HER visions and the severity of her moral judgment marked out Ellen Gould White as more than just spiritually inclined. Among the godfearing American farming community into which she was born in 1827, her 2,000 religious experiences, details of which she noted almost obsessively, made her a prophet of God.
She married an Adventist minister and the couple founded the Seventh Day Adventist Church, which currently has 12 million followers around the world. The movement observes the Sabbath on a Saturday, and believes the Second Coming of Christ is imminent.

Now science has afforded a new spin on White’s spirituality. A leading neurologist who has studied White’s personal history and opus has concluded that, rather than being divinely inspired, her illusions stemmed from a form of epilepsy. “Her whole clinical course suggested to me the high probability that she had temporal lobe epilepsy,” says Gregory Holmes, a neurologist at Dartmouth Medical School in New Hampshire. The multitude of visions, Holmes suggests, were actually epileptic seizures.

The retrospective diagnosis, which has lain quietly in the medical literature for 20 years, is aired in a TV documentary tonight. The programme explores the new and controversial subject of neurotheology, or the role that the brain plays in religious experience. The discoveries that are emerging from this fledgeling science are, depending on your religious views, either deeply fascinating or profoundly disturbing. They imply that the brain created God, not the other way round; that religious leaders throughout history were touched not by supreme beings but by mental illness; that moments of serenity common to ardent believers of all faiths are simply hiccups in brain chemistry. The findings suggest that our attitudes to religion are underpinned by biology — that some brains are physically built to be more receptive to divine thought, and that this explains why religion induces apathy in some and fervour in others. One scientist has even built a kind of “God helmet” — a headset that can induce the feeling of an unseen presence by bathing the temples in electromagnetic fields.

Holmes was moved to make his diagnosis of White on the strength of one incident in particular. When White was nine, she was hit on the head by a stone thrown by a classmate. She drifted in and out of consciousness — wavering between life and death — for three weeks. As well as being disfigured, she was unable to resume school, and buried herself instead in the Bible. Eight years later she began having visions. Witnesses are remarkably consistent in their descriptions of White immersed in these sacred moments.

One wrote: “In passing into vision, she gives three enrapturing shouts of ‘Glory!’ which echo and re-echo, the second, and especially the third, fainter. For about four or five seconds she seems to drop down like a person in a swoon, or one having lost his strength; she then seems to be instantly filled with superhuman strength. There are frequent movements of the hands and arms, pointing to the right or left, as her head turns. All these movements are made in a most graceful manner. Her eyes are always open, but she does not wink; her head is raised and she is looking upward, not with a vacant stare but with a pleasant expression,.”

To Holmes, these are the hallmarks of a partial-complex seizure, which are characterised by a heavenwards stare, a temporary loss of consciousness, automatisms (repetitive physical movements) and hallucinations. Even White’s meticulous note-taking — she produced 100,000 pages of notes during her lifetime — suggested hypographia, another feature common to patients undergoing partial-complex seizures.

The Seventh Day Adventist Church convened a series of nine scientists, all believers, to examine Holmes’s claim. They rejected it, saying that White’s injury was to the nose and forehead rather than the sides of the head, near the temporal lobes. The eight-year interval between injury and her first hallucination also weakened the association. But Holmes stands by his conclusion that “although it would be impossible to prove retrospectively that Ellen White suffered from partial-complex seizures, it appears possible that not only her visions, but also her writing and the nature of her revelations, may reflect temporal lobe dysfunction”. The British arm of the church seems less bothered by the claim. “If God chose someone with epilepsy or any other predisposing mental factor to reveal Himself, it doesn’t substantially change the nature of the revelations,” says John Surridge, communications director for the Seventh Day Adventist Church at its British headquarters in Watford, Herts. “If we look to the Bible, Moses was said to have a mental condition, and maybe that’s just the way God chose to work. In any case, while Ellen White was very influential, our beliefs don’t hang on just her writings. Our beliefs are based on the Bible.

“But some people may use this to reduce religious experience to merely activity in the brain, and remove God completely. We would object to that. Religious experience is an encounter with God, not just a product of the brain.”

It would dismay Surridge to know that some scientists are tending to just this opinion — that God is an artefact of our evolved human minds, and that visions are symptoms of neurological abnormality. As well as Moses, experts are intrigued by St Paul, who famously encountered God in a blinding flash while on the road to Damascus, and St Teresa of Avila, who heard voices and is widely thought to have exhibited signs of schizophrenia.

Pascal Boyer, in his ambitious book Religion Explained, published in 2001, suggested that our ancestors had to be able to outwit unseen predators, and so we developed a protective belief in hidden spirits. This has transmuted today into a belief in the “airy nothing” of religion. For Boyer, an anthropology professor at Washington University, it is no coincidence that religion sprang up around 50,000 years ago, tallying approximately with the emergence of anatomically modern human beings. As soon as our brains became sufficiently evolved to embrace supernatural ideas, Boyer suggests, religion spread like a cerebral virus.

Studies of patients with brain injuries or neurological disorders certainly appear to support the contentious idea that the brain houses a “spirituality circuit”. A proportion of people who develop temporal lobe epilepsy become intensely religious. Tibetan Buddhist monks have had their brains scanned while meditating; some regions showed signs of springing into life while other parts of the brain quietened down. Activity was quelled in the superior parietal lobe, the area that allows a person to orientate himself. When it calms down, a person can feel “lost” in space and time, a common feeling among those engaged in intense religious thought.

However, the Pennsylvania scientists who carried out this pioneering study — Dr Andrew Newberg and the late Eugene d’Aquili — declined to conclude that religion was really all in the mind. Instead of these neurological changes creating divine experiences, they said diplomatically, the brain might be adjusting its activity in order more easily to detect a spiritual reality. One scientist who has perhaps done more than any other to elevate the field of neurotheology to controversial heights is Professor Michael Persinger, a neurologist at Laurentian University in Ontario. Persinger has built a magnet-laden helmet that surrounds the skull with a mild electromagnetic field. It induces a mystical experience — Persinger describes it as a “sensed presence” — in four out of five people who wear it. Importantly, volunteers aretold it is an experiment on relaxation rather than a spiritual experience.

Religious people who undergo the experiment, he says, tend to believe that God is with them; less religious guinea pigs feel as if a benevolent stranger is watching over them. Interestingly, Persinger tried his technique on Richard Dawkins, the Oxford biologist and committed atheist. Dawkins did not have a mystical experience; Persinger says a prior test showed that Dawkins has low sensitivity in the temporal lobes, which the helmet stimulates.

The neuroscientist Vilayanur Ramachandran, who has just delivered this year’s Reith Lectures, has conducted his own fascinating experiments with temporal lobe epilepsy patients. He found they show a higher brain response to words with religious connotations than to sexually charged words, unlike the general population. For many, this has nailed the link between the temporal lobes and religious thought.

Ramachandran says such research does not devalue religious belief, and that such brain circuits “may be God’s way of putting an antenna in your brain to make you more receptive to Him”. Persinger, who says he is not religious, is bolder: “My research shows that religious experiences are created by the brain.” To Persinger, religion, which promotes the idea that a Creator is looking after us rather in the manner of a benign parent, is a “delusion”.

Persinger’s colleagues cannot understand why he pursues this work with such vigour; they tell him it will damage his reputation, alienate grant-giving bodies and legitimise study of the supernatural. He tells them: “My question is, why shouldn’t we study such questions? The experimental method is the most powerful tool we have. That’s how we find truth from non-truth.”'
 
God committed genocide in the old testament, doesn't seem like Jesus jam.

There was a covenant between God and Israel in the old testament which was based on law, and a covenant between God and the world in the new testament based on grace.
The old law system was meant to contrast the nature of God and physical natural man. Jesus came to destroy those differences by becoming the curse (object of punishment) for all who realise they can never attain to Godly perfection in their natural selves. So the righteousness of God is freely given as a gift to those that believe Jesus took their place of judgement.
 
There was a covenant between God and Israel in the old testament which was based on law, and a covenant between God and the world in the new testament based on grace.
The old law system was meant to contrast the nature of God and physical natural man. Jesus came to destroy those differences by becoming the curse (object of punishment) for all who realise they can never attain to Godly perfection in their natural selves. So the righteousness of God is freely given as a gift to those that believe Jesus took their place of judgement.
I'm not sure what this means. Is it okay to commit genocide?
 
Well, that's fecking mental.

It only seems that way from a modern current perspective. God is totally against Genocide today during a time of grace.
But 3000 / 4000 years ago when he was the God of Israel, and nations wanted to wipe them out or lead them away from the Mosaic law into idolatry, there was little could be done to keep these nations from being a constant thorn in their sides. In fact there was a time when the Israelites didn't kill everyone, and as a punishment they were prevented by God from wiping them out. And they were then told that their disobedience would lead to these nations around them being a thorn in their sides, and they were. The Israelites accepted the foreign God's, and they were constantly made subject to people like the Philistines until a deliverer (judge) could be raised up to deliver them from oppression.

Read the book of judges and find out what happened when the Israelites were disobedient in wiping out people.
 
It only seems that way from a modern current perspective. God is totally against Genocide today during a time of grace.
But 3000 / 4000 years ago when he was the God of Israel, and nations wanted to wipe them out or lead them away from the Mosaic law into idolatry, there was little could be done to keep these nations from being a constant thorn in their sides. In fact there was a time when the Israelites didn't kill everyone, and as a punishment they were prevented by God from wiping them out. And they were then told that their disobedience would lead to these nations around them being a thorn in their sides, and they were. The Israelites accepted the foreign God's, and they were constantly made subject to people like the Philistines until a deliverer (judge) could be raised up to deliver them from oppression.

Read the book of judges and find out what happened when the Israelites were disobedient in wiping out people.
This particular character is supposedly all powerful, they could have written an infinite number of things other than suicide. It just shows an massive lack of imagination from the writers.
 
Just thought I'd recommend a really great book I'm reading right now, for anybody interested in the different ways Islamic devotional practices play out in South Asia, and of course Islam in general - Reliving Karbala: Martyrdom in South Asian Memory by Syed Akbar Hyder. Really interesting read about the different ways the Battle of Karbala is understood and its legacy expressed in different South Asian contexts - through Shi'ism, Sufism, and even Hindusim, as well as through the modern-day reformers and Islamists and against the backdrop of contemporary events.

The author comes from an Indian Shi'i background, so there is an inevitable weight on the Shi'i aspects of Karbala (also inevitable given Karbala's role in shaping Shi'ism in general), but some of the most interesting stuff deals with more general Islamic approaches to Karbala.
 
Yeah I'm vaguely familiar with the story (maybe from the Cafe, have you mentioned it on here before?), so far the discussion in Hinduism mainly involves how some aspects of the Muharram commemorations in South Asian bore resemblance to analogous Hindu practices, and Hindu participation in the Ashura stuff.
 
We haven't all read the book yet Raoul, we don't all have the ability to quote it yet. :)

Oh feck...never thought of that. I always viewed this as a fairly well known matter of religious history. I'll undo my last posts.
 
Oh feck...never thought of that. I always viewed this as a fairly well known matter of religious history. I'll undo my last posts.
So kind, always reliable.
 


(Edit) it's a bit weird in places, sometimes the colours indicate conquest, sometimes conversion.
 
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Just thought I'd recommend a really great book I'm reading right now, for anybody interested in the different ways Islamic devotional practices play out in South Asia, and of course Islam in general - Reliving Karbala: Martyrdom in South Asian Memory by Syed Akbar Hyder. Really interesting read about the different ways the Battle of Karbala is understood and its legacy expressed in different South Asian contexts - through Shi'ism, Sufism, and even Hindusim, as well as through the modern-day reformers and Islamists and against the backdrop of contemporary events.

The author comes from an Indian Shi'i background, so there is an inevitable weight on the Shi'i aspects of Karbala (also inevitable given Karbala's role in shaping Shi'ism in general), but some of the most interesting stuff deals with more general Islamic approaches to Karbala.

Yeah I'm vaguely familiar with the story (maybe from the Cafe, have you mentioned it on here before?), so far the discussion in Hinduism mainly involves how some aspects of the Muharram commemorations in South Asian bore resemblance to analogous Hindu practices, and Hindu participation in the Ashura stuff.

Meet the Hussaini Brahmins, Hindus who observe Muharram alongside Muslims

Hussaini Brahmins isn't a name that immediately rings a bell for many Indians.

In the society we live in, one built on strong undercurrents of communal distrust, Hussaini Brahmin almost sounds like an oxymoron. However, in one corner of Delhi, Hussaini Brahmins, a section of Hindus, take out a Taziya every year during Muharram, following the Muslim tradition of beating their chests as a mark of ceremonial mourning.

A report on The Times of India states, "Their procession looks like any other, except that they don't use swords and knives. Rajinder Kumar, a resident of Shadipur depot who has headed the Kalyanpuri taziya for two decades, said his ancestors have been observing Muharram and so will his descendants."

According to the report a lot of Hindus and even Muslims in Delhi are unaware of this community. When the Hussaini Brahmins joined the Muharram procession, many assumed, even in the media, that Hindus have decided to lead the procession to prevent riots following the Trilokpuri violence.

This Facebook post attempts throw light on the traditions of this little-known community. "The history of Husaini Brahmans (also known as MOHYAL BRAHMINS) begins with ten Brahmans going to Karbala with the determination to die fighting for Imam Husain. Among them were Rahib Dutt and his seven sons who fought bravely and resolutely. With the blessings of Imam Husain they met their death in a heroic way."


The post also notes that Sunil Dutt is believed to be a descendant of Rahib Dutt.

The community is usually greeted with a mix of awe and shock when they introduce themselves and explain their religious traditions. The early predecessors of Hussain Brahmins were believed to be from Haryana and Punjab.


An old report on The Hindu quotes one Col Ramsarup Bakshi as saying, "The employees in the factory I run now were taken aback when I told them about my community. ‘Asapan asta ka?’ (Is it so?) They exclaimed.”

Bakshi added that his community cherishes its ancestral links to Imam Hussain and revers the leader.

Jitendra Mohan, president of Pune Mohiyal Samaj president, told Pune Mirror in the past, “Some of us converted to Islam. Those like us who remained Hindu Brahmins continue the martial tradition of our ancestors. Most of us are strongly built, with straight noses and face, and join the Army.”

https://www.firstpost.com/living/me...serve-muharram-alongside-muslims-1788623.html
 
As a fellow Christian, I hate these people more than anything.
 
As a fellow Christian, I hate these people more than anything.

“I really believe that if the Lord Jesus Christ was physically on the Earth today, he wouldn’t be riding a donkey,”

No he'd be on Reddit obviously.
 
Sure, its just that as a Muslim living in a Christian country (well the UK was pretty much Christian in the 80s :) ) I was obviously taught about the bible but the question that always struck me was around the number of discrepancies, changes and basically mistakes in the most-read holy book of all. I just wasn't sure if Christians accepted this or were offended if brought up, so I never really asked. As you probably know, or not, Muslims have the opposite view i.e. not a single mistake in the holy book, traced back to original scripts via a still used living language, etc. So that's what piqued my curiosity and am relieved no one was offended. No other reason.

Ps. Muslims believe in the Bible too, it forms part of the 7 beliefs Muslims must hold to be a, well, Muslim: 1. One God, 2. All the Prophets (Moses, Jesus, Muhammad pbut), 3. Angels, 4. Holy Books (Torah, Bible, Quran, Book of David), 5. Destiny, 6. Day of Judgement 7. Life After Death (heaven/hell/eternal life/etc).
Genuinely interested now as I did hear from a friend of mine who attends religious studies that it's actually quite the opposite. May need further examination.

EDIT: Apparently there are 121 condradictions. That's only talking internal ones. Then there's that abrogation rule which can make it easier to cherry-pick what one wants to claim/do. Then there's much different approach depicted in Mecca and Medina books which is often wrongly likened to Old/New Testament . That's all should be about discussion/debate, never offending anyone. At the end of the day it's up to anyone which verses he/she follows and if to take everything literally or not.
 
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Do you think Jeremiah and Ezekiel were believed by everyone over 2000 years ago?

I simply don't know why we don't hear prophecies any longer or maybe we do but we've heard enough of them and have run out of patience waiting for the events (?) to arrive but the Treaty of Rome one does appear to moving along a bit.
We have them, like Fatima,Medjugorje etc. It's simply unspoken of in wider circles because of the times we live in. As you said, healing of the blind was probably explained by the sand magically disappearing from his eyes back then by some.
 
Hajj time again. Here's a live stream:



Yesterday strong winds lifted the kiswah (black cover) of the Kaaba:

 
Incredible footage in the live stream above right now.

(Edit): This by the Iranian ideologue Ali Shariati is a great interpretation of what's going on there:

Circumambulating
Like a roaring river circling around a stone, Kaaba is surrounded by a crowd of highly excited people. It is like a sun in the center while the people are like stars traveling in their orbit of the solar system. Centrally positioned, the people move around it in a circular pattern. Kaaba symbolizes the constancy and eternity of Allah. The moving circle represents the continuous activity and transition of His creatures.

CONSTANCY + MOVEMENT + DISCIPLINE
=
CIRCUMAMBULATING


This is an equation of the whole world. It is an example of a system based on the idea of monotheism which encompasses the orientation of a particle (man). Allah is the center of existence; He is the focus of this ephemeral world. In contrast, you are a moving particle changing your position from what you are to what you ought to be. Yet in all positions and during all times, maintain a constant distance with "Kaaba" or with Allah! The distance depends upon the path that you have chosen in this system.

You do not touch Kaaba nor do your stop there. Everyone encircles Kaaba collectively. The movement is as one unit, one group of people. There is no individual identification, that is, as being a man or woman, nor black or white! It is the transformation of one person into the totality of a "people". All of the "I's" join and become a "We", establishing the "Umma" with the aim of approaching Allah.

Allah's way is the way of the people. In other words, to approach Allah you must first approach people. How is this done? To achieve righteousness you should genuinely become involved in the problems of people, not as a monk who isolates himself in a monastery but by becoming actively involved in the "field". This includes practicing generosity, devotion, and self-denial, suffering in captivity and exile, enduring torture pains and facing various types of danger. This is how you are with the people and where you may approach Allah. The Prophet Muhammad (S) said: "Every religion has its monastic way of life. In Islam, it is JIHAD.

During Tawaf (circumambulating) you cannot enter the Kaaba nor stop anywhere around it. You must enter into and disappear from the crowd. You must be drawn into the roaring river of people who are circumambulating. This is how you will become a Hajj. This is the collective invitation to whoever wants to come to this house. What can be seen? Kaaba is steadfast in the center while the white, roaring river goes around it. Everyone is dressed in one color and pattern. There is neither distinction nor personal promotion; true totality and universality is demonstrated.

Outside of Kaaba each person has his own ways and rights. "Totality" is only a theoretical concept. "Humanity" is only an idea, a logical and theoretical concept. Away from Kaaba people are identified by their names, nationality or race, but at Kaaba these characteristics are replaced by the concept of totality and universality which serves to identify them. Therefore, it is "people" representing "mankind" who are making Tawaf!

If you remain in the state of self-centeredness, you are not really a part of the Tawaf circle. You will be like a visitor standing at the bank of a river, but not in it. Those who are detached from themselves are alive and moving collectively. Those who are not separated from themselves are stagnant and dead. They are like wandering particles in the air of its systemic orbit. Furthermore, at Kaaba you are taught to prove yourself, to demonstrate your existence and to become eternal. You must reject self-centeredness.

By exercising generosity, kindness to others, and devotion to the community (ummah), you will attain self-discovery and envision the reality. When you give up your life in the way of Allah, in your warm blood you will approach Shahadat' and be called a Shaheed. Shahadat is being present, alive, palpable and visible. A Shaheed is an everlasting witness and visitor; he exemplifies an "eternal living".

Think not of those who are slain in the way of Allah as dead; Nay, they are living. With their Lord, they have provision. Qur’an 3:69

Because the way of Allah is the way of people, it should be pursued collectively not individually. But what about prayers which are performed individually? They are done in order to train you to practice devotion, demonstrate maximum generosity, deny self-centeredness, and sacrifice for the sake of others.

The ultimate goal is to become the ideal man/woman. Man is the representative of Allah. His representative and trustee (Adam) will exist as long as Allah desires. A person will live eternally if he dies as a "man" because one (the individual) is perishable but "man" is eternal! A drop of water which is not part of a river or does not flow into a sea is like dew. It lasts overnight only, and will disappear with the early smile of sunshine.

Oh man, join the river to flow, to meet the sea and to become eternal! Oh dew, why are you waiting near the bank of the river which reminds you of the harmony of creation? Go ahead and join the people! But before coming together you must be fully conscious of what you are doing and why. You must admit it is for Allah, not for yourself and for the facts, not for the politics! Here every act has an important meaning. This eternal movement is governed by accurate discipline. It reflects the organization of the world.

http://www.shariati.com/english/hajj/hajj2.html
 
Ok found it again. This is a good one because it has a good structure:

http://www.onereason.org/muhammad-in-the-bible/

It's from Isaiah and Ezekiel.
Matthew 12:15-21 tells us that Jesus is the chosen one of whom Isaiah spoke referred to in the above article. Isaiah 42:10, Also see Revelation 5:9. and 14:3. See also Isaiah 53:5-6 which states "He was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all."
Any interpretation must fit the whole Servant Song motif. Isaiah 53 (as do the other songs), describes many points that fit no one but Christ: rejected Isaiah 42:3; sins of the elect laid upon him Isaiah 42:5-6; murdered Isaiah 42:8; died with the wicked and was buried with the rich Isaiah 42:9; did no violence Isaiah 42:9; raised from the dead Isaiah 42:11. Clearly, this is not Muhammad.
 
Fascinating stuff. The people stood next to the building groping it, are they just doing it wrong or have different views on what can should be done? Same with the groups wearing bright pink clothing?
 
Question for Muslim members here - for those of you who don't understand Arabic, do you use a translation of the Qur'an? And if so, which language/translation do you use?