Ashura:
Religion Discussion | Read the OP before posting
- Thread starter Raoul
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I never understood the benefit or thought process behind Self-flagellation, I mean each to their own and all that but what's the spiritual point?
To feel some fraction of the pain felt by Husayn (or for the Catholics who do it, Jesus). And in doing so achieve some kind of understanding of the sacrifice he made and by extension the depth of his faith in God.
That’s my idea of it anyway. Although I’m sure for many participants there’s a large element of machismo to it as well.
Definitely full of machismo.
Yes neither do I understand it. Husayn died in battle. By all means it was a brutal battle and his family was massacred. Frankly I do not understand the hatred of the Sunnis to the Shias. After all the Shias have more reason to hate the Sunnis as it was them who massacred the grandson of the Prophet Muhammed and cut off his head and paraded it among the followers of Yazid. This massacre of the Prophets's family is the start of the schism in Islam that has gone on for all these years.
Most scholars today argue that Shi’i and Sunni didn’t really exist as identities at the time of Karbala, they were produced in the following couple of centuries through a range of factors. So it wouldn’t be strictly accurate to say that the ‘Sunnis’ killed Husayn, although some extremist Shi’a might push that idea today. Certainly Sunnis always have and continue to revere Husayn, and many would consider Yazid a tyrant. And historically sectarian identities have been more fluid and Sunnis have often participated in the Muharram festivities in their own way, although less so in the last century as sectarian identities have hardened. My experience of this discussion has been that most Sunnis don’t hate the Shi’a, although they’re often a bit baffled by Shi’i rituals and aspects of Shi’i theology.
You think when Muhammed SAWS grandson was alive there was shia and sunni? The answer is no
Self Flagellation makes a lot more sense than cutting goats heads off and dancing in the blood. And it doesn't matter how many excuses you make about donating the meat to the poor. Give the poor money and let them go purchase their own meat from authorised butcheries.Do whatever you want with your own self, don't punish other beings for your beliefs,
Like killing other humans because they like to eat beef?
Those are extremists, like Islamic terrorists. You don't judge the behavior of the common people by the behavior of the extremists. Bakri Id festivals are celebrated by common people not radical extremists.
As is Kali Puja, your point being?
Funny you should mention Kali Puja, because I happen to be a bengali and have got the practice stopped in my village. Mostly all Kali Puja festival does a nominal sacrifice of a pumpkin and don't actually kill a goat. And we're making attempts to get it stopped wherever its still going on, don't think I'm an hypocrite and am attacking Islam solely. We got the Gandhimai festival stopped in Nepal, and are attacking wanton killing of animals wherever possible. Its imperative that the stupid Bakri Id sacrifice is stopped as its preventing Muslims from becoming vegetarians/vegans as they'll have to actively go against their religion to get it stopped.
Why are you pushing people to be vegetarians/vegans?
Who does that?
What's so radical about eating goat meat?
Wait, what now?
The animal sacrifice is distributed to the poor. No one in the UK for example, does their own Qurbani because to do so would defeat the point. We (Muslims in the West) actually do exactly what you say we should. We give the monetary value of the Qurbani to charities who then carry out the act and distribute it to the poor.
Not for the faint hearted
https://www.huffingtonpost.in/2016/...of-blood-after-festival-of-animal_a_21472429/
Sanatan dharma is not homogenous so I find it surprising that you actively try to stop the traditions of peoples forefathers, a bengali trying to water down the culture of tantric bengalis...are you one of these pseudo bengalis who is currently campaigning to stop an intrinsic part of our culture namely eating fish?
Culture should be dumped in the garbage bin if it doesn't make sense to the morals of the day. You should know the kind of practices that were part of Sanatana Dharma, that have been stopped and are currently in the process of being stopped.
I've seen plenty of people kicking around the severed goats head, but don't want to go looking for those grisly pictures.
Good for you, thats what we're trying to achieve in India as well. But India is a century behind the west.
That's not part of the ritual. You can't blame Xmas for old men in santa clothes enjoying people sitting on their laps. Maybe use your brain before coming to a judgement?
I read this article the other day and this seems as good as place as any to post it: https://www.gq.com/story/john-chau-missionary-and-uncontacted-tribe
It tell the story of a missionary who travels to an island in the Indian Ocean to try and convert an uncontacted tribe. It's some read. Warning though, it's a very long article but it's worth it.
It tell the story of a missionary who travels to an island in the Indian Ocean to try and convert an uncontacted tribe. It's some read. Warning though, it's a very long article but it's worth it.
I'm opposed to the entire ritual, there's no need to kill an innocent animal for showing your devotion to Allah. Self flagellation makes a lot more sense to me, beat yourself up to show your devotion, why behead an animal. And playing around in the blood, with the severed goat head are fruits of the same poisonous tree. Its a horrible ritual and no civilised human being should defend it.
Hah, dumbass. Why travel to a remote island to convert people when there's plenty of conversion worthy fodder in the mainland.
It's better to hope you're trolling than believe you are actually being dim about this. The ritual is about eating meat. Dancing in goat blood is something you have invented. The purpose of it is not to BEHEAD an animal, you can pay a slaughter house to buy meat as well.
You're not massacring Animals for the sake of it. You slaughter goats, cows etc to eat and distribute among the poor.
He is exaggerating because he has an agenda of course, not listening to reason and repeating the same none sense.
Yeah, this is the same tired excuse I get over here. Don't patronise the poor, give them money and let them decide what they want to do with it. Charity through the medium of slaughter, what a thoughtful concept, this is why I hate religion. Come to India, I'll show you the malicious glee with which people butcher the poor animals in broad daylight, and how they treat the corpse. Its not a wonder that most vegans become bitter at the sight of such unmitigated barbarism.
Of course I have an agenda, I've made myself clear, I want the stupid ritual stopped. First step to get more Muslims to become vegan. And you're words don't hurt me, I've been physically attacked by people when we try to explain to them how ridiculous the practice is, even though slaughtering animals outside of a designated slaughterhouse is a crime here. The authorities are too cowardly to take action(and tbf to them they've got bigger fish to fry) and its left to the common folk to do something about it.
That is the exact point I am making. The division started from the time of Caliph Usman. The he got killed and then Caliph Ali got killed. All by Muslims themselves. Then of course his son Husayn was killed. If Abu Sufyan's sons were not so ambitious to be rulers then none of this would have happened. So the followers of Ali and then Husayn had more justification to be angry at the Sunni's than the Sunni to the Shias.
You are right at that time there was no religious schism as it is today. It was strictly political and nothing to do with the religion. I think the mistake was made when Caliph Umar appointed a committee to appoint the next Caliph. I think Ali should have been appointed instead of Usman. This is the start of the political rivalry as the tribal rivalry was very much alive even at that time.
Of course Sunnis do revere Ali as he was the nephew of the Holy Prophet. And the first male to become a muslim ( though he was a child) and his son in law too and by all means a champion fighter too.
I have met many Sunnis, I agree from the middle east who hate the Shias. I know many Sunnis from other countries who have no negative feelings towards the Shias. I have met many Shias who have no negative feelings towards the Sunnis but also the opposite too.
But all religions should be able to discuss and debate their issues without open hostility and violence. If not then it means they have no belief or faith in their own religion and beliefs.
I have never even seen it let alone heard this. This must be a pagan ritual and as others have said it is not only Muslims but Jews do also the same ritual. The meat is to be eaten and in the days of Eid is distributed to the poor. I also feel that there is nothing wrong in eating meat. If people want to eat meat why should others stop it? Also if people do not want to eat meat then let them eat something else.
Its a myth to think muslims mark ashura as the anniversary of Hussains death. Fasting on Ashura was ordained before Hussain was martyred.
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Yes, its the day that God split the red sea for moses.
Like I said, let "the poor" decide what they want to do with their lives instead of throwing pieces of animal flesh at them just so you can feel good about yourself. Its arrogant to make "the poor" live by your rules. And if you thought that eating meat was wrong then we wouldn't have an argument at all, you wouldn't need to invent all this charitable feelings for "the poor" so that you can justify your barbaric rituals. Next time you go and stuff animal flesh in the hands of "the poor", ask them if they would rather have money instead.
If youre all for animal rights thats cool, but please stop with such an attitude. You dont have the right to tell anybody to stop eating meat, something thats been happening forever, only to try and force them to become vegan because you feel sorry for animals.
Karbala in Istanbul: Scenes from the Ashura Commemorations of Zeynebiye
Then that's an India problem, not religion (if what you say about people dancing with goat heads there being true)
Giving to the poor is not an excuse. It's a fact and it happens. Youd have to be a militant vegan or just sad to find people eating meat such a big crime
I have no anger towards Shia, I think that disagreement by men of old should not carry over to this day, I find it crazy that there are a group of people who still talk about it in the muslim community, I do not agree with the self harm shia inflict on themselves though, but you know at the end of the day each to their own I guess.
That I entirely agree with you. But the massacres being committed by both sides as it is unacceptable in this age.
Yeah it's areas like Syria actually that happened the most during at first the protests and then when it turned into war, I don't want to get into that topic too much though, I've been burnt doing that before.
At the end of the day it is religion being used by people to get their own ways. In every instance.