You don't need to convince me, I think it was a penalty.
I'm trying to think of a possible reason the ref thought is wasn't!
Refs & VAR 2020/2021 Discussion
- Thread starter Annihilate Now!
- Start date
You don't need to convince me, I think it was a penalty.
I'm trying to think of a possible reason the ref thought is wasn't!
I love how you’ve spent five pages of this thread making up supposed interpretations of the law that all conspire to somehow make it not a penalty against Chelsea while conveniently ignoring the laws of the game and what they actually say since that would lead to the conclusion that it should’ve been a penalty against Chelsea.
[
No need to be using freeze frames and making up stuff looking for reasons just to get away from that
Because he was scared to, it would lead to too much controversy. Kind of said this already, along the lines of what shaw was saying, unless he was lying/ playing Chinese whisper.
No need to be using freeze frames and making up stuff looking for reasons just to get away from that
Him being "scared to give it" is ridiculous. Scared of what? Media coverage? He's got far worse coverage for not giving the pen!
Well unless Shaw has got it wrong that was the reason
They've already said he got it wrong, haven't they?
Yeah I suppose, that could be backtracking to avoid bans who knows.
For play to actually be called to a stop for the ref to look at you’d think that’s a good case that ref the ref has missed something he should have called. I know you agree it’s a pen, but for me there’s no reason not to give that other than be worried about headlines.
I personally don't think they should even get the ref to re-watch it. Just flat out tell him he missed it and to give the pen.
As for him worrying about the headlines, I bet he wishes he gave it now!
What can I say? Slow day at work!
I said early on that I can empathise with frustrations that it wasn't awarded given the context of VAR this season. That said, I don't think I'm making anything up regarding the way handball has historically been interpreted. By the standards that have subsequently been applied to the handball law earlier this season, I'd agree that it is a penalty. But you're ignoring the fact that those changes to the law were walked back and made less black-and-white - that was a definitive and notable adjustment made over the international break in November. At this point, what is or isn't handball seems to have reverted back to the former interpretation for some officials (but not universally), where in the event of accidental handball the extent to which the defender benefits is considered and left up to the referee's discretion.
If you think the handball law is clearly written and applied consistently to the letter of the law, then respectfully I'd ask for the number of your drug dealer. I am 100% on board with clearly and definitively codifying what is or isn't handball in the laws, but the reality is that at the moment it's a clusterfeck and has to be left open to interpretation.
Shaw's claims cannot be ignored and certainly should not be punished. There needs to be an investigation. It's possible Shaw misheard, but we need to know for certain. If what he said is accurate, then there must be a serious overhaul of accountability and transparency in officiating. It is currently destroying the game.
The problem with yesterday’s decision is that the handball is one which, if spotted, would have been a handball in 2000, 2010 and 2020. It isn’t a grey area handball as seems to be being suggested. I’d be very interested if anyone can find a similar example where a penalty was not given, in circumstances where the referee saw it.
Either the referee has wrongly thought that Greenwood handled it or he is now so confused by the rules that he’s not giving penalties which were clear and obvious 5 years ago. It’s deeply troubling and really needs clarification ASAP.
Either the referee has wrongly thought that Greenwood handled it or he is now so confused by the rules that he’s not giving penalties which were clear and obvious 5 years ago. It’s deeply troubling and really needs clarification ASAP.
further to my point about over reactions pre VAR, yes there wouldn't have been the fuss live as hardly anyone spots it, until sky picks it up and then we have 24hr loop of slow motion replays. nothing really changes.
You’re still ignoring the point that was put to you that a ref making a mistake live one can have a bit of sympathy for and understand the mistake, speed of the game etc. not when they’ve already watched ten replays and still made a dodgy call.
nothing to do with fans seeing replays after a match has finished
Late to the party but I don't think anyone said that did they? Has anyone said Fred didn't do anything wrong?
Fred rightfully was booked for a poor tackle.
The question was did Mount's kickout get reviewed wasn't it?
The referees used to have a safety net I as much as when mistakes were made the got off fairly lightly because speed of the game/there only human etc etc.
They no longer have that safety net because VAR that was meant to stop the errors is actually if anything showing just how many mistakes refs make and how clueless some of them actually are.
I'm beginning to wonder if they are deliberately making massive cock ups to make the VAR system look bad so they can get rid of it and get there safety net back.
They no longer have that safety net because VAR that was meant to stop the errors is actually if anything showing just how many mistakes refs make and how clueless some of them actually are.
I'm beginning to wonder if they are deliberately making massive cock ups to make the VAR system look bad so they can get rid of it and get there safety net back.
Ok man makes mistake doing his job. It happens, unless there's some skullduggery going on, does it really invite being called every name under the sun and more, and people loosing their minds.
I was gutted at the handball non penalty as much as the next person, but after the game I don't end up hating the ref with every ounce of my being or dispair for the future of the game. Let's be honest if.mctominay hadn't messed up pretty routine cross, all this would be irrelevant. But I still love him.
The problem with your “analysis” is that it’s not a mistake a referee would make.
You can be fecking damn sure he knows the rules of the game and how they should be interpreted but he chose to make a different decision due to “people talking afterwards”
Should never referee again.
"Should I come and have a look to sell it" doesn't sit right with me.
Eternity wrote - “Shaw's claims cannot be ignored and certainly should not be punished. There needs to be an investigation. It's possible Shaw misheard, but we need to know for certain. If what he said is accurate, then there must be a serious overhaul of accountability and transparency in officiating. It is currently destroying the game.”
I would be very surprised if all the communications between referees and their assistants aren’t recorded so any comments made by the ref would be available for review. That would be interesting!
I would be very surprised if all the communications between referees and their assistants aren’t recorded so any comments made by the ref would be available for review. That would be interesting!
Much easier for the players to accept the decision though which will make it easier for everyone for the rest of the game and calm everyone’s temper. It shouldn’t be needed but I think it was the right call considering how a game can spiral out of control in the face of perceived injustice.
Yeh, rather bizarre. The players are standing right there, and he has already told them it is being checked. So selling it can only be for the crowd/TV, which again seems pointless. Just seems to be manufacturing drama
Yeah exactly. Game management technique.
Okay so it's been over a year now with VAR so it probably should be evaluated.
For a 100 years before VAR there had been a natural evolution and selection of the rules of the game. The tempo, the emotions, the small ways of getting around the game, the drama, the rivalry, etc. Now VAR changes all of this and for me makes it way less emotional.
Celebrations are not the same, the tackles are not the same - slight touch is what an attacker aims for now, instead of playing a physical game. And they can't even get the decisions correct. At least if you change something, come prepared and do your best. VAR hasn't evolved over this year as people thought it would. That alone says a lot on how it might not really evolve to more than this current state.
Also is this the level of entertainment we want for football? The game is stopped and measured all the time. It's simply not football to me. The associations took the beautiful game, and made us all argue in details over small details in the laws and rules of the game, instead of the game itself. Make it human again, please.
For a 100 years before VAR there had been a natural evolution and selection of the rules of the game. The tempo, the emotions, the small ways of getting around the game, the drama, the rivalry, etc. Now VAR changes all of this and for me makes it way less emotional.
Celebrations are not the same, the tackles are not the same - slight touch is what an attacker aims for now, instead of playing a physical game. And they can't even get the decisions correct. At least if you change something, come prepared and do your best. VAR hasn't evolved over this year as people thought it would. That alone says a lot on how it might not really evolve to more than this current state.
Also is this the level of entertainment we want for football? The game is stopped and measured all the time. It's simply not football to me. The associations took the beautiful game, and made us all argue in details over small details in the laws and rules of the game, instead of the game itself. Make it human again, please.
I agree. Yes please.
Could the reason he didn’t give it possibly be that it might just be ”controversial “, given that United would be the beneficiaries? We know Sky etc would make a fecking meal out of it again, whilst totting up all the previous on their fecking abacus. The narrative is well and truly established since Klopp, Mou and fat Fwank have all had a go. Hardly a revelation, is it, as the ref well knows.
odd, how they manage well enough in other countries. Even Australia... hardly a hotbed of football culture. Maybe this helps?
edit: meant to quote ROFLUTION.
Even those videos of the refs being the stars in Australia I don’t really like to be honest, the one I’ve seen is the ref repeatedly asking “tell me when I’m on tell me when I’m on” and this ref is “going to sell it”. Superstar refs!
just let the game be the game, minor contacts and flicks are part of the game, the fact that any goal can be possibly ruled out at any time for the minutest of things that happened a few minutes ago these days is just shit imo.
There’s so many subjective decisions it’s a total lottery whether a goal is going to be allowed or not or a penalty will be given or not it’s ridiculous, then you have how they don’t interfere with clear kick out yellow cards or balls that have gone for corners from offside positions or even ridiculous offside themselves. It’s just made it a soap opera, take out the emotion but add the drama. Great if that’s what you like. For me it’s not.
You mean refs aren’t wannabe stars in the PL?
I agree though, “sell it“ doesn’t sound good but that’s all. You can see what they mean. The important stuff is dealt with well., with little fuss. Maybe because they deal with Rugby (their primary sport) this way and football is basically low key to them. No media hysteria.
Must admit, Id be happy to return to refereeing but now the genie is out of the bottle there will always be calls to apply some level of interference. Where do they draw the line?
Yes I think some of the refs in the PL also want to be stars and couldn’t think of anything better than being the centre of attention looking at their little screen and making big decisions, I’ve seen them say as much and the Adrenalin rush they get from big calls or correct calls. I don’t think we should be adding to their want for centre of attention.
I truly believe football was more enjoyable and passionate before this VAR was introduced, if it was introduced and almost never seen, only for hand of god or Henry style handball moments then I could go with that, but not this couple of times a game, interfering with almost everything, minutes to make decisions and even then the viewer has no idea what they’re going to call, the fan in the stadium even less of an idea, the hesitation to go mad with joy if an important goal has been scored because it could still be overturned a few minutes later for something innocuous., the half hour post match and headlines are almost alway VAR talk and not football. It’s just taken football in the wrong way and there’s very little benefit to it imo.
just my morning moan about VAR
A few points:
1) VAR hasn't been around for a year, it's been around in the PL for a year.
2) That's an important distinction if we're talking about VAR evolving, because it has evolved in other leagues since it was first introduced. In fact one of the main criticisms you could level at the PL version is that they didn't learn from other leagues' mistakes despite being one of the last to implement VAR, be it in terms of the use of pitchside monitors, having a consistent rate of interventions throughout the year or communicating decisions (compare to the audio we now get from the A League or the videos explaining decisions that the MLS do with the PL's lack of clarity).
4) Beyond that, the tech has evolved since VAR was introduced, particularly in terms of offsides. The current hawk-eye 3D imaging wasn't in place initially and semi-automated offsides are due to be in place for the Qatar World Cup. Which is tangible and incontrovertible evolution.
5) It's also important to bear in mind the anticipated timescale. About a year ago IFAB openly said that it would be a decade before they really know the best way to use VAR, based on the feedback they heard from those who implemented similar tech in other sports, like the TMO in rugby (which did indeed take a long time to get to where it is now with a lot of early teething problems). So nobody involved expected the evolution to have come to a conclusion at this point anyway. There's still a long, painful process to go.
6) All that said, there are still glaring problems with VAR generally and the PL's implementation in particular has been an unmitigated mess. So there's still plenty to criticise. And the changes to the rules haven't been a help either. The change to the handball rule this year has actively made things worse, for example. So if we're grading it on the year + since it was introduced in the PL, it has been a frustrating failure.
Oh, certainly agree on the whole. I just have this little voice in my head saying there will always be a clamour for some degree of interference but yes, they're doing a fine job of ruining a great game.
Those are some valid points and the offsides is clearly something that could work for good, however I feel the timeframe of 10 years to get it right is a strange one. In 10 years we'll mostly have forgotten about how football was played before VAR, which would make it harder to scrap and you would evaluate VAR against feelings of the game that would long be forgotten and unmeasurable.
To give it 10 years, creates some incentives for the pro-VAR people in the associations and in IFAB. I think for IFAB it could become a matter of honor to tell us how great it works, even if it doesn't in 7-8 years, as putting such a massive projectout only to see it not work would be terrible. The bureaucracy of these institution is something else in itself too. When VAR was launched we were told it would get, what 99% of the decisions right? I'm afraid if its the associations and IFAB that will do the evaluation we will see a rosetinted picture like the 99% PR stunt.
on one hand a referee is slaughtered for 'bottling' a big decision to avoid scrutiny, on the other referees are slaughtered for controversial calls that could easily have gone either way.
i just the find the whole outrage a bit tedious. people saying the game is officially over etc. imagine if we had social media when they talked of introducing subs.
i just the find the whole outrage a bit tedious. people saying the game is officially over etc. imagine if we had social media when they talked of introducing subs.
Did introducing subs / the backpass rule / whatever else impact you wanting to celebrate a goal?
Ha, I was actually at that game supporting the team that conceded the goal. That game was pretty much 2 years ago. After the 2nd or 3rd replay it was clear to me that the officials were going to award the goal. From when the ball hit the net, I think they took maybe 3 minutes to award the goal. I don't remember there being frustration about how long the officials were taking either. The ref in question is now refereeing in England.
Yep, just the sheer amount of money that will have been pumped into VAR after a decade will be pretty significant. I read before that just installing goal-line technology across Europe's stadiums cost 50 million+, so you'd imagine the cost of installing VAR systems was more than that again. Then there's the cost of developing and installing improvements from then on (like the new offside tech) and ongoing training programs for those using it.
I think once they committed that kind of money they were all-in, regardless of how it worked out.
again, its not the end of the world. the other option is to get rid of VAR, and let the refs make the decisions in real-time. meanwhile the tv companies will continue with VAR technology plus plus plus, and no doubt laud it over the refs everytime a decision is shown to have been 'incorrect' to create clicks / get eyeballs etc, how do you think referees will cope with that level of scrutiny / abuse.
my point wasnt about VAR anyway, it was about the outrage that follows every questionable decision. Of course the twittersphere isnt the real world, but it does get reflected and amplifed by the press in the standard media.
why is everyone so so so angry?. about things that really have no consequence for them other than emotional fantasies.
That Brighton disallowed goal is probably the worst referee decision all season.
Dunk - Can I take the free kick?
Ref - Yes
Brighton score, ref disallows it.
Ref - You need to wait for the whistle
Dunk - You said I could take it
Ref allows the goal and then presumably VAR intervene and disallows it again
.
Dunk - Can I take the free kick?
Ref - Yes
Brighton score, ref disallows it.
Ref - You need to wait for the whistle
Dunk - You said I could take it
Ref allows the goal and then presumably VAR intervene and disallows it again
.That's so the message is clear to the viewing public. Happens in cricket too. It isn't because the ref wants to be a superstar.