But but, Charlton, Law and other best teammates were hardly amateurs.
RedCafe's top 20 Manchester United players of all-time results
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But but, Charlton, Law and other best teammates were hardly amateurs.
Who do you think was better out of Best and Cryuff? You have most likely seen more matches of them than me and Revan
I'm 64. My dad used to take me to watch United back then.
I must admit it wasn't until I was older that I realised what a privilege I'd had in being able to watch such an amazing team.
It must be special having seen all the United greats live.
Yeah, I got that bit. I was wondering why you think Cruyff is better? Other people say so? The vast majority on here - Arsenal and Liverpool fans included - that saw Best play seem to believe he's right up in that top tier ahead of Cruyff, and I imagine that's true of the majority of people that were living in England at the time. And bias obviously doesn't come into it when you're talking about a nation as a whole.
I only replied on Best but that's a good point, the competition for it when Best got it was mean. Charlton and Law had already won it, Charlton was second the year before and that year as well so it wasn't like winning the European Cup gave him dibs on all the votes.
I rate Cruyff very high, probably lower only than Messi and Maradona. For me he is the most revolutionary player ever.
I have seen Cruyff playing more than Best (though I must admit that my knowledge in both of them is limited), and I just **** that he was the better player. Best maybe was the more talented player andmore joy to watch, but Cruyff on the other hand was (IMO) better tactically, more inteligent and a leader. Also, Cruyff was the undisputed leader and the best player of probably the best national team ever and one of the best club teams ever.
All of this without mentioning his three Ballon D'or, his three UCL equivalent medals, and other neutal opinion fans (not british though) and many other lists like Fifa '98 one.
They are great stats, not best player ever stats though, and not the ones people have in their mind based on his Real form
Appearances? Several top top players shit all over him
Goals/goals per game? Ruud at 15th has a far far more impressive record, so do Rooney and Law
But you don't want to consider him a forward but a winger (although he was every bit a forward in his top seasons)? Best has a comparable record over a more extended period
Yet he still shone brightly in a star-studded team and got the Ballon d'Or
Ronaldo was the main man and fluffed his lines when squeaky bum time came around, just like he did against Bayern last year (that's form for you, not "it happens to anyone")
So, Ronaldo needed the teammates, while Best stood brightly in a team full of superstars? Sorry, but I am not getting you here.
Fact is that both of them played with fantastic footballers, and both of them won Golden Ball.
That's such a ridiculous thing to say. Ronaldo delivers big performances far, far more than he "fluffs his lines".
Messi did the same thing against Chelsea last year yet nobody is saying anything like that about him.
I myself was surprised at how popular Ronaldo was. After a slow start he pretty much ran away with it. I think he's brilliant but he's effectively here because of a few seasons and it wouldn't be surprising if some think of the Madrid Ronaldo.
Didn't he score two goals against them?
We are not discussing Messi though.
When you have characters like Robbo, Keane, Cantona and several others made of the same "stuff" in your pedigree, regarding an emotional mess like Ronaldo as your best ever player just doesn't sit well with me.
On talent alone he is easily Top 3 material, on overall contribution (inc. apps, goal stats and honours) he just about makes the latter half of a Top 10, on character and embodying/representing the club's history he is in no man's land.
Am I the only one who fully expected him to miss that penalty?
Am I the only one who got frustrated whenever he turned completely ineffectual by persisting on being a one-man show?
Am I the only one who perceived that rather than focusing on the challenge of making the team better, he just felt those around him were letting him down and he needed to move on to continue on his trajectory?
Am I the only one who got fed up with your star man musing about God's knowledge?
How the feck can that be your Best Player Ever at United? It's a monumental disservice to all before, during and after him.
Ok, change the subject. What you previously said about him "fluffing his lines" was bullshit, I don't care about all your other questions.
Surprised Scholes finished above Giggs. Begin to wonder if Ryan is hurting his legacy playing on this season. If this poll was done a year ago, before Scholes came back out of retirement, and Giggsy's form dropped, I think Giggs would be ahead.
His professionalism and the work he puts into improving are commendable, but he tries too hard. His ability and mental strength/emotional stability do not keep up with how much he pushes himself.
Over time it makes him a better player but I get the impression that pushing himself further than he actually can go makes him fall into the trap of trying to do it all himself as a result, or results in choking moments like those two crucial missed penalties. At the Euros this year it was a similar scenario, he wanted that 5th peno, he wanted the spotlight, not just for the glory but to prove a point and show he could do it... But he never got to kick the ball.
He craves the spotlight yet at some crucial points he can't handle being under it and fecks up as a result. As said, over time those continuous demands on himself make him a better player, but they also make him a rather tortured individual who can't seem to just enjoy how good he is and what a charmed life he lives.
And if it was done before 2006, he'd likely be behind Beckham.
If anything his longevity has increased his standing quite a lot. Deservedly though. Though the whole poll is definitely subject to recent memory prominence.
Again, the correct answer is Bobby Charlton.
It's all part of the same issue, you see?
Tbh I think its more to do with Scholes being brilliant since coming out of retirement.
Probably, I mentioned in another thread, by now Giggs is surplus to requirements (has been replaced) while we still don't seem to be able to perform without Scholes. What Giggs provided is easier to replace, on his way out Scholes is opening our eyes to how valuable he was and how difficult it is to do what he has done throughout (not that we weren't aware, just not so jaw-droppingly aware).
It's not an issue, because it's not true, ergo it is irrelevant.
What isn't true?
I think, pure and simply, it's the fact a club with our history would like to think that our greatest player is not someone who is so because of a 3 year spell after which he left for a payrise at one of our European rivals.
In fairness, I don't think it was the pay rise but both fulfilling a childhood dream and going for what he perceived as a bigger challenge pitting himself against Messi/Barca.
The one thing I will always remember fondly is how he signed on preventing Real from taking us to the cleaners. You could argue it was an ego trip to be the highest transfer ever but what we do know is time and again Real and Barca are involved in protracted sagas where the player holds the club to ransom, bangs on about broken transfer promises, etc.
That did not happen with Ronaldo and he deserves better than being labeled a mercenary. He did show loyalty in that regard, just not the sort of enduring club loyalty you expect from a Best Ever.
Not at all.
The manager decided them beforehand, Ronaldo had no say. You're losing credibility here by stating facts which aren't true, followed up by your constant criticism of one of the most talented footballers of recent years.
Not really.
Are Giggs and Scholes in the top five all time list (in the football forum or any list)? No, not a chance.
Which tells you everything.
What are you saying? That actually Best was better/as good as Pele and Maradona. Also, scholes was 13 in best ever redcafe list, which is strange too.
The reports were he asked for it, but it's the sort of thing you will never know. In any case, on that point I was mostly lamenting the fact we never got to see whether he could pull it off. Would have certainly been cathartic for him for reasons far beyond the personal glory, as I also stated.
If you read a few posts above you will find me actually defending him.
I have no problem with Ronaldo, I like to see him doing well, I understand and accept his reasons for leaving, it's purely he doesn't fit the profile I would look for in our Best Ever, as I explained earlier.
When I voted I did say that I was voting the best players I had ever seen play for United - and born in 1987, it excluded Edwards, Law, Charlton, Best etc.
I think Scholes deserves that spot, and I would have put him there before he retired.
This vote has caused a great debate, but lets face it, its very difficult to actually rank Man United's top 20 players, I doubt SAF could do it without severe difficulty.
I think Scholes deserves that spot, and I would have put him there before he retired.
This vote has caused a great debate, but lets face it, its very difficult to actually rank Man United's top 20 players, I doubt SAF could do it without severe difficulty.
Cristiano Ronaldo, 292 games, 118 goals, 61 assists
Best United Player of All Time
This really sums it up. Not to mention that Ronaldo is player who will be known mostly because of his goals. Redcafe experts, well done.
Looking at those results, and going by opinions lately, I'd say Giggs longevity is beginning to hurt him rather than increase his standing. With your Beckham example you show how important timing is.
We played Chelsea in the CL quarter-final not long ago with Giggs playing central midfield, a position that is not his own, keeping Scholes on the bench. And he was superb over both legs against a 3 man midfield of Lampard, Ramires & Essien.
Fast forward 18 months and there's people here asking for him to hang up his boots, while Scholes is popping up in an all-time best player list.
Maybe. Although we had our best performance of the season so far against Newcaslte, a game where Scholes or Giggs didn't start. But that doesn't mean we've replaced either of them properly. We may well have to spend big to replace both long term unless a Cleverley or Powell becomes a world class midfielder. As for left wing, we'll almost certainly have to buy. Young is good but not world class and Nani (if he stays) on the left is nothing compared to what Giggs used to provide. You're right though in the sense that finding a world class winger is easier than finding a world class playmaker. But whoever we bring in will most likely not last at the top for a fraction of the time Giggs & Scholes have. Their enduring quality is what will make it so sad to see them both retire.
I understand that you don't think he should be rated as our best ever player. I'd possibly agree depending on the criteria. He was here quite a long time, but only put his foot down and showed how good he was for three seasons, then he was off. I had to have a look at Best's record, with him leaving quite young, and then playing for a load of sides, but he'd actually been here longer than I thought, and made 361 appearances in the league to Ronaldo's 196.
If we're judging it solely on who had the most talent, who was the best player at any given moment, I'd probably say Ronaldo, but for me he didn't do it for long enough. On the other hand you have Giggs, who's done it for two decades, but wasn't as good.
A game in which we had to completely overhaul our tactics because our personnel are not up to the job of playing the same way without Scholes. Look at Southampton were we tried to...
Indeed. We don't have someone of Giggs (or Ronaldo's) quality any more but we have done a reasonable job of compensating for that. Scholes' role is proving a completely different cup of tea though.
And no, I don't think we will see the longevity of Giggs and Scholes again
That's where Best strikes the right balance. I have no problem with Ronaldo making the Top 5, it's being top while someone like Charlton is shafted way behind which strikes me as an imbalance between talent and contribution.
Good point. And the diamond is a short-term fix imo so the problem is a serious one.
Indeed. We don't have someone of Giggs (or Ronaldo's) quality any more but we have done a reasonable job of compensating for that. Scholes' role is proving a completely different cup of tea though.
And no, I don't think we will see the longevity of Giggs and Scholes again
Maybe a 451/433 (like 2007-09) could be the way forward if the Scholes conundrum proves too much to fix.
To be fair, noodle's Zombie Passing & Old Player threads are almost exclusively focused on saying how Scholes is hampering us....Admittedly for being too good, but still.
Timing certainly plays a part though. Cantona won the official fans poll in 98. He wouldn't now.
Cristiano Ronaldo, 292 games, 118 goals, 61 assists
Best United Player of All Time
Bobby Charlton, 760 games (2nd highest at the club) 249 goals (highest at the club + the only midfielder in the top 7) 4 billion assists (I made that one up) Ballon D'or Winner. World Cup Winner. Highest scorer for England too (+ the only midfielder in the top 10)
I'm going to keep saying it until someone acknowledges it. You don't need to have seen him to gage it with those stats.
Wrong thread
https://www.redcafe.net/f13/jimmy-savile-359765/
The problem then becomes that your two World Class players are fighting for one spot and the other ends up a bit of a misfit somewhere else, much like Rooney was back then when shunted on the left.
I'm afraid the diamond will be here longer than we expect. We don't have the personnel for a midfield two and our best players call for two upfront or one with another supporting in the hole.
We will probably be in transition for the next season or two IMO.
feck sake