Not close enough it seems!
To those that have yet to vote and still may do so, when making your decision try to remember how much you dislike John Terry and Ashley Cole...
Redafe Champions League Draft - Snow v Fergus'son
- Thread starter Theon
- Start date
Not close enough it seems!
To those that have yet to vote and still may do so, when making your decision try to remember how much you dislike John Terry and Ashley Cole...
I don't like Ozil in this, and I prefer Fergus's midfield. Gallas at right back seems strange as well.
The introduction of Moller has made a difference. He can chip into the midfield battle and offer a genuine goal threat. I can't help but feel that Snow/Cutch, despite a little more star quality in their side, would now start to lose that battle without reinforcement or tactical adjustment. Just a point in defence of Mendieta, I recall him as a tigerish and furiously energetic midfielder and don't think he'd be a concern at all. The question is whether he's getting enough support from his colleagues.
Yes. In fact Scholl was a big omission for me in the draft given his undoubted quality when fit.
Indeed, that is fair to say about Mendieta but he has faced a particularly tigerish midfield today with Claude, Bastian and Moller all being powerful players, and has had little protection from Ronaldinho, Kaka and Ozil who must certainly be tiring. That, combined with the fresh legs of Moller and the presence of Batigol (who almost always scores!) should provide enough of a threat at this late stage.
Please remember, Villa, Batigol, Moller and Muller are all players to have performed and sorted at the very highest level, not just CLs but also world cups and euros. The propensity of my team to score important goals in the highest pressure moments mustn't be underestimated IMO.
This whole "at their peak" technicality is getting in the way I feel. While a 2-3 year peak is good enough to qualify that player's quality, if someone's showed his peak for a longer amount of time he should really be getting bigger weightage. There's no way Torres and Batigol can be mentioned at the same level even if you take the peak criteria into account, one showed it for a couple of seasons barely and has been dogshit since while the other did it for years against the toughest.
I was surprised as well and I felt perhaps I had overrated him. Also Elber surprised he wasn't picked when talking champions league.
I agree the 'at his peak' is somewhat odd. I'm not going to think of Torres peak so much when I watched him just the other day. For me legends and current starts will get the most votes. Current players who have passed it are somewhat iffy.
Elber wasn't a surprise to me. Most teams play with only one striker in the draft and there were too many brilliant strikers available.
Can't see Snow being on here before this finishes. Frustrating that I can't post any arguments on his behalf
That isn't what Aldo is saying though..
What you have described is the exact reason that the peak criteria is always used - you aren't supposed to look at Torres in the team and judge him on his shit Chelsea form.
I agree with Aldo that the peak thing can be difficult to get right, in the two drafts I have played though it has always been used. Is there a better alternative? If there is then I'll edit it for the next games.
feck, right i better pull myself together here then 
I agree completely, how do you translate that to rules though?
I've had a look at previous drafts and they all came with a similar rule that players are judged at their peak.
David Villa - top scorer at euro 2008, silver ball winner at world cup 2010, Spain's all time top scorer having scored more WC goals than any other Spanish player too, only de Stefano has matched his goals to game ratio for the national team.
Thomas Muller - Golden boot winner a World cup 2010 with 5 goals and three assists, best young player in that tournament and a scorer in a CL final. 23 goals last year.
Batistuta - All time Argentine to scorer and tenth top scorer in Serie A history (playing for fioerintina against the very best defences)
Surely one of these can grab an important late goal?
Thomas Muller - Golden boot winner a World cup 2010 with 5 goals and three assists, best young player in that tournament and a scorer in a CL final. 23 goals last year.
Batistuta - All time Argentine to scorer and tenth top scorer in Serie A history (playing for fioerintina against the very best defences)
Surely one of these can grab an important late goal?
The ideal thing to do IMO is to look at peak and consistency over the years equally which is not that easy in itself. There are players like Ronaldinho who despite not being as consistent as say someone like Giggsy would be rated higher because their peak was extra ordinary, while in some cases a short peak would be dismissed and inconsistency of the said player would be highlighted more.
I do agree that taking the peak into account is a way of simplifying the judging/voting process. Possibly the one thing that can be done is saying "X number of minimum years for which the player should have displayed enough consistency to count it as a genuine peak and not a purple patch or a 1/2 season wonder". Surely something to talk about before the next one. It usually isn't an issue apart from few exceptions.
Oh k I read what he said again he is talking about the weight but behind each peak so e.g C.Ronaldo 6+ years> Ronaldinho's 2-3 years which is hard to enforce because some may just prefer Ronaldinho regardless of how well C. Ronaldo has done. I get your point about Torres but surely some people won't be able to help themselves when I look at Snow's team and see Torres up front I immediately think 'eeergh but Torres even though we are meant to be looking at peaks'
In all honesty I don't think there is because that would mean picking someone like Benteke ahead of Torres currently or Oscar over Kaka? which is odd there should be a Premier League draft so thats since 1992 or has that happened already???
Yup agree with all that again, it's just hard to translate it into an easy rule for the voters.
Also the x number of years idea wouldn't even get around someone like Torres because he surely qualifies as having a sustained peak of 3/4 years, as you couldn't put a higher time requirement than that really.
So we are back to the issue of how do you rate prime Torres vs prime Batigol - which I agree should be heavily in favour of Batistuta.
Maybe I'll just remove the comments from the OP about prime form etc, and let the voters attach their natural weight/value to each player.
Or how about some comment like "when assessing players their peak, consistency and career success should be taken into account"..? Let's leave it till after the game anyway, couldn't be closer this one
I think Jayvin hit the nail on the head here....
Please don't look at my team with this view or I'm in shit. We've selected players based almost purely on their peak. Not what they're like now.
When you see Essien in my midfield, think of the beast who was playing for Lyon and Chelsea, before his injuries
I wouldn't overplay it lads. Adriano hit an extremely high pick between 2004 and 2006 yet wasn't even borne into consideration. Very few players hold a world-class peak for more than 3-4 seasons, and those that do tend to be regarded as all-time greats, and will irrespective of the criteria, gain more votes.
I won't mate because I don't just go in and vote and I have read the criteria i'm talking more about the casual voter.Team Snow Rallying Cry
Guys, are some of you forgetting just how devastating some of Snows players were in their peak
which is what this to be judged on.
Do you's remember when Kaka could do this?
Or Ronaldinho could do this?
Or Mendieta could do this?
Forget your dislike of Terry, Cole and Torres and remember what they were like at their very best. Remember Cole as the best left back in the world. Remember how you used to be shit scared of Torres when he played for Liverpool. Remember Petr Cech used to be the hardest cnut ever to score past before he got the head injury. Remember how good a partnership Carvalho had with Terry and Gallas under Mourinho. Remember the cnuts only conceded 15 and 22 goals in entire premier league seasons. Remember Ozil last season in Spain scoring 15 and assisting 29, and when he tore England a new one at the World Cup. Remember the underrated Albelda and the part he played in helping Valencia reach 2 CL finals and win a La Liga title.
Do the right thing. Vote Team Snow.
Guys, are some of you forgetting just how devastating some of Snows players were in their peak
which is what this to be judged on.
Do you's remember when Kaka could do this?
Or Ronaldinho could do this?
Or Mendieta could do this?
Forget your dislike of Terry, Cole and Torres and remember what they were like at their very best. Remember Cole as the best left back in the world. Remember how you used to be shit scared of Torres when he played for Liverpool. Remember Petr Cech used to be the hardest cnut ever to score past before he got the head injury. Remember how good a partnership Carvalho had with Terry and Gallas under Mourinho. Remember the cnuts only conceded 15 and 22 goals in entire premier league seasons. Remember Ozil last season in Spain scoring 15 and assisting 29, and when he tore England a new one at the World Cup. Remember the underrated Albelda and the part he played in helping Valencia reach 2 CL finals and win a La Liga title.
Do the right thing. Vote Team Snow.
The only way around that would be to have a current draft. Say, the premier league 2013/14, all players are available to draft currently playing in the league.
I mean for this one now though, is there a better idea we could stick in for the criteria when voting? I agree with Aldo that Batistuta should be getting way more credit than Torres, but Torres' peak was still absolutely immense and wouldn't be hugely behind Batistuta, certainly not as far behind as their performances over their careers as a whole were.
Why Team Snow will win this game
- Defensive and midfield units that have played consistently together over time
- The outstanding player on the pitch in Ronaldinho
- Kakas significantly better impact on World Football than Aimar or Andrea Moller
- The best left back in the world Ashley Cole while Fergus's has Michael fecking Tarnat!
- A rock solid keeper Cech up against a flapper like Reina
- Defensive and midfield units that have played consistently together over time
- The outstanding player on the pitch in Ronaldinho
- Kakas significantly better impact on World Football than Aimar or Andrea Moller
- The best left back in the world Ashley Cole while Fergus's has Michael fecking Tarnat!
- A rock solid keeper Cech up against a flapper like Reina
Ah right, yeah fair point. The casual voter may well look at it that way. This is why I took so much stick for Barthez. Even Rooney could get some unfair treatment with recent events.
And when you see Crespo think of his Parma and Lazio career, not Chelsea/Milan
Indeed. Am a massive Crespo fan, superb forward.
Don't think there's any way around it. Different people will interpret it in different ways. Me personally... I view it as: a.) who hit the higher ceiling, providing it was more than just a flash in the pan? and then b.) Longevity. In reality, Giggs deserves more credit than Ronaldoinho for staying at the top for 23 years but in these drafts, Ronnie hit the higher standard, so I'd view him as the better pick. If it comes down to two players who had a similar peak then longevity decides who is better.
"when assessing players their peak, consistency and career success should be taken into account"..?" Sounds good but not for this draft since we've all picked our team based on peak form rather than anything else. Essien would not have been my 5th pick unless peak was the crucial factor.
The glaring weakness on Cutchs right side must surely give Villa hope of a goal? The manager has completely failed to address his issues there, with Ozil not providing consistent threat out there (and tiring) and Gallas not being much use either. My team is powerful with a good physical presence, particularly in midfield and upfront and are really driving forward now.
Do voters read the tactics on the first page or it just the lineups and the discussion through the thread?
Final few minutes to vote everyone, if you're still undecided then remember your love for Batigol and your hate for Terry, Cole, Gallas and all things Chelsea!!!
Not much use?
Gallas has over 80 caps for France. He's one of the best man markers in the game. He's marking David Villa, a striker thats been shunted on the wing. Villa won't stay there, he'll drift inside which will suit Gallas perfectly. He'll basically be a 3rd centre half.Ozil not providing a consistent threat? Why the heck not? He's up against Michael fecking Tarnat, the worst player on the pitch. In reality once he's tore him a new one and run himself into the ground, the white brazilian Bernd Schneider would come on to tighten the thing up a bit.
Terry and Carvalho are fully occupied by Batigol and Moller now so Muller should have the increased oppurtunity to get the better of Cole, and certainly Villa will get in behind Gallas atleast once more...
Or remember that its not a popularity contest, and we're putting our hatred of these players to one side (i fecking hate them too), to pick the likely winners of a fantasy game of football, of which taking everything into account should be Team Snow.
Last minute equalizer!!!
who voted that, KM? or Gio?
who voted that, KM? or Gio?
Still waiting on him to shore things up a bit.