He plays in the middle what are you on about. Plus you never know what performance you are going to get from Ozil.
Redafe Champions League Draft - Snow v Fergus'son
- Thread starter Theon
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He plays in the middle what are you on about. Plus you never know what performance you are going to get from Ozil.
I see his main threat in this matchup as on the counterattack with quick ball being recycled and the 4 forward players all attacking at pace. I see him roaming and interchanging, linking up with Ronaldinho, and particularly Kaka, making runs inside of Tarnat and producing attacking contributions similar to the goal i've linked in the OP.
Glad to hear you agree with me on the England v Germany game, as while Muller was good it was Ozils driving runs that England couldn't live with.
I'm not sure you get as many counter attacks as you hope for in this game. And yeah, that game vs England was brilliant. Özil was highly influential in goals even when he didn't touch the ball. When Özil pulled Terry out of position for the first goal, that was incredibly smart movement by him. Wonderful stuff.
I could post the vid of all his goals and assists from last season and you can see how many are from coming in from the right. Anyway, he's not playing as a winger, he's got the license to roam and interchange with his other attackers.
We're judging these players at their peak, not assuming they're going to have one of their shit days, of which i wasn't aware Ozil had many of. Christ i can't believe i'm having to defend Ozil, Kaka and Ronaldinho here.
Yes mate.
Find it strange that people are comparing Villa out wide to Ozil, Villa has enjoyed the best part of his career in that position, winning the euros, the world cup, and every club trophy there is in Spain being ever so effective from there. Plus he's good at playing that position when there is an Argentine goal getter occupying the centre.... Ozil on the other hand hasn't had many great performances of not out wide as far as I remember...
Well for me.. He has won more out wide, but was at his best for Valencia.. Not Barca or Spain.
Thats fair. It's not as easy as throw them together all the teams teams have great players in this draft so of course people will want to know more. He starts in the middle and is most effective there i'm sure you watch Real Madrid matches. He has a license to roam but teams with too many of these players lose shape and balance imo. It will work of course but it wouldn't be a smoothly functioning system was my point.
Ozil was great, but Muller was highly effective vs the Cole and Terry partnership (a partnership that had far more cover than Ronaldinho will be providing) and clearly that's quite relevant to this match up, particularly with Bastian in the mix too?
I think it's unfair to single one of Özil and Müller out. Both played together are imo one of of the best attacking pairings in world football today. They complement each other perfectly, their understanding is telepathic. It's a shame that both play against each other in this game. Shame on you both for that. (And shame on Bayern for not buying Özil in 2010, Nerlinger (Bayern's director of football at the time) robbed us of so many magic moments).
Not far away from how I would interpret it. However, I'd say a Samuel-Ayala partnership is on the same level as Terry-Carvalho; Mendieta's peak was more awe-inspiring than Schweinsteiger's; Albelda matches up to Makelele reasonably well; and there's not a lot between Kaka and Aimar, even at peak form. I'd be bearing into consideration the fact that Aimar was competing with Zidane, Rivaldo, Figo, Riquelme and Ronaldinho for the 'best no10 in the world' title, whereas Kaka peaked during that window of opportunity between Ronaldinho turning fat and Messi and Ronaldo getting their shit together.
Fair enough, but it must be noted that only one of them is playing in thier natural position. Muller is as good on the wing as he is anywhere else, Ozil simply isn't, particularly with only Gallas to pair up with. I see Villa and Batigol linking up quite well...
Perhaps Batigol would be the difference maker in such a tight game? There's hardly a defence in the world that could contain him, he used to score freely vs the brick wall Italian defences of the 90's, surely it's a good bet backing him to score?
You know how much I love Batistuta
For good reason mate!
This looks like it might get away from me, I'd like to see more of the other participants voting...
Samuel-Ayala is at least on the same level as Terry-Carvalho. Ronaldinho and Kaka together in the same side was a resounding failure for Brazil and a Ozil/Gallas right flank just isn't going to work. If you had a proper RB who could provide overlapping runs it would look a lot better, but as it stands I can't see your attacking trio working that well (despite all of them being individually brilliant).
I dont think either of us can really claim to have an edge over eachother regarding that pairing. Both are at their best in the middle. I rate Ozil as the slightly better talent but theres not that much in it.
Ozil won't be pairing solely with Gallas. At times Torres will drift wide, at times Mendieta will drift to the right, Ronaldinho and Kaka will be roaming. This side does not need the right back to be bombing forward for the attack to function, theres more than enough matchwinners.
If you remember our first leg vs Real this season you should be able to remember Rafael in trouble because he had to deal with two players with no help. It wasn't just Ronaldo, also Özil. Özil went to the right that game to exploit the weakness in defense. That's what he does. And when he's been on the right (whilst Modric or sometimes Kaka have been in the center) he certainly attacks down the right. He's prone to hug the end line when attacking the full back.
Of course I have the edge in that regard, it's widely known that Muller is extremely versatile, and can play as well on the wing as he does in the middle. Even if you think he is better centrally, you can't argue that he is still brilliant on the wing, Terry and Cole can testify to that. The same cant be said of Ozil, he becomes half the player he is when shunted out wide.
I must say that Cutchs second paragraph sounds a little washy washy, there's seems to be little cohesion in thier tactics, whereas mine are outlined, completely logical and play to my players strengths.
I must say that Cutchs second paragraph sounds a little washy washy, there's seems to be little cohesion in thier tactics, whereas mine are outlined, completely logical and play to my players strengths.
It's not relevant no. Müller wasn't playing them 6-7 years ago.
Brilliant. Little cohesion. It's the most proven tactic there is with any team in this competition. The back 5 have all played together. Our midfield pair are playing to their strengths whilst Kaka has a partner on either side of him that's he's used to play with as well. All in a formation that every player is familiar with.
You, and your J-mates, are only able to focus on Özil. Trying to take the light away from a player like Kaka that single handed beat one of SAF's best defenses. He's so much better than Aimar has ever been. Villa is as much out of position as Özil is and Müller is definitely at his best behind the striker. Like Özil, he can play comfortably on the right because he's a good player and knows how to position himself off the ball but unlike Özil you won't see him do much with the ball outside the box.
Michael Tarnat: Tell me a little about this most bizarre pick (imo) in the draft. When was his peak? You mention his debut season at Bayern and that he's able to shoot the ball with power. His second season with Bayern he played half the games. Not always as a left back. So when was he really good?
Samuel and Ayala: I'm trying to see when they were a strong partnership. I can't seem to find any evidence of them even playing together in a non-friendly match.
We've made the peaks of our players very clear but you haven't done so with your players. When was Aimar's peak? When he played with Mendieta and Mendieta was considered the best midfielder in Europe? Villa as good on the wing or as striker is complete nonsense. He's easily a better striker.
Talk about lack of cohesion in our team when your main advantage at some form of cohesion is Makelele and Thuram having played together with France and Schweinsteiger and Müller together at Bayern. That's peanuts compared to our team.
Last post before i hand the reins over to Snow
Kaka + Ronaldinho supposedly not playing well together: Think this myth may have arisen following Brazils poor showing at 2006 World Cup when the whole attacking unit didn't turn up for whatever reason. When Ronaldinho moved to Milan in 2008 he spoke about how excited he was to play with Kaka again and how well they play together. The 2 are close friends and always look to link up with eachother when both are on the pitch. They used to combine to great effect with Milan in the 2008/09 season. The link below, a home win against the double winners Inter serves as a good example where the 2 would regularly combine. Check out the Ronaldinho chance at 0:40 and his goal at 1:43. Virtually every chance Milan created in this game was via link-up from the pair of them. Does this look like 2 players that don't play well together?
The 2 players at their best can play well with anybody.
Kaka + Ronaldinho supposedly not playing well together: Think this myth may have arisen following Brazils poor showing at 2006 World Cup when the whole attacking unit didn't turn up for whatever reason. When Ronaldinho moved to Milan in 2008 he spoke about how excited he was to play with Kaka again and how well they play together. The 2 are close friends and always look to link up with eachother when both are on the pitch. They used to combine to great effect with Milan in the 2008/09 season. The link below, a home win against the double winners Inter serves as a good example where the 2 would regularly combine. Check out the Ronaldinho chance at 0:40 and his goal at 1:43. Virtually every chance Milan created in this game was via link-up from the pair of them. Does this look like 2 players that don't play well together?
The 2 players at their best can play well with anybody.
I suppose, but it does remain that Muller was top scorer of that world cup, playing from the RW. Makes Cutchs claims that Muller is as ineffective as Ozil on the wing seem far fetched.
Cole and Terry didn't win much during thier prime years with each other?
A pairing of Heinze and Evra is SAF's greatest defence?
You've never seen Samuel and Ayala play together? Says more about you really and renders any of your opinions regarding them pretty baseless.
Aimars peak was at Valencia, Tarnats in his debut season for Bayern but he was fairly consistent throughout his career.
Who are my 'j-mates'? Also, I'm not sure you know what cohesion means, it isn't just having played together, it's about having clear instructions to your players. Wishy washy comments like 'they'll all roam everywhere etc etc' seem like they lack cohesion, to me anyway.
You've never seen Samuel and Ayala play together? Says more about you really and renders any of your opinions regarding them pretty baseless.
Aimars peak was at Valencia, Tarnats in his debut season for Bayern but he was fairly consistent throughout his career.
Who are my 'j-mates'? Also, I'm not sure you know what cohesion means, it isn't just having played together, it's about having clear instructions to your players. Wishy washy comments like 'they'll all roam everywhere etc etc' seem like they lack cohesion, to me anyway.
Dont think I'll be online for a few hours now so thought I'd share a Batigol video with everyone in the meantime.
Enjoy!!
Enjoy!!
Same here, it's getting on my tits.
Genuine mistake that, I'll see if Theon can swap it around for me because right now I dont have the time or means...
Ayala/Samuel Partnership?
So, i've done a bit of digging here to try and establish the record of these 2 playing together which a few of you speak so highly of, and to be honest i'm struggling. Looking at the major international tournaments that these 2 should have played together in.
1999 Copa America - Unconvincing performances in groups including a 3-0 drubbing by Columbia with Samuel subbed off at half time.
Eliminated in quarters 2-1 to Brazil whilst playing 3 at back.
2002 World Cup - Disappointing tournament. Eliminated in groups. Ayala didn't feature at all. Results included a loss to England and a draw with Sweden.
2004 Copa America - Lost in final to Brazil. The first choice defence was a 3 and appeared to consist of Ayala, Heinze and Coloccini.
2006 World Cup - Samuel didnt play a single game.
2010 World Cup - Ayala didn't play a single game.
So if we're going to make bold statements like saying Ayala+Samuel is at least the equal to a pairing that conceded 15 and 22 goals in an entire premier league season, what are we basing this on?
So, i've done a bit of digging here to try and establish the record of these 2 playing together which a few of you speak so highly of, and to be honest i'm struggling. Looking at the major international tournaments that these 2 should have played together in.
1999 Copa America - Unconvincing performances in groups including a 3-0 drubbing by Columbia with Samuel subbed off at half time.
Eliminated in quarters 2-1 to Brazil whilst playing 3 at back.
2002 World Cup - Disappointing tournament. Eliminated in groups. Ayala didn't feature at all. Results included a loss to England and a draw with Sweden.
2004 Copa America - Lost in final to Brazil. The first choice defence was a 3 and appeared to consist of Ayala, Heinze and Coloccini.
2006 World Cup - Samuel didnt play a single game.
2010 World Cup - Ayala didn't play a single game.
So if we're going to make bold statements like saying Ayala+Samuel is at least the equal to a pairing that conceded 15 and 22 goals in an entire premier league season, what are we basing this on?
Think it's a bit unfair that Fergus is being forced to deal with both Cutch and Snow separately at the same time.
Its pretty simple. We've a defence that know eachothers game inside out and we've a 2 in midfield that know eachothers game inside out. This enables a solid platform for our 4 attackers to win the game for us, supplemented by Mendieta's creativity and Cole bombing down the left. Ronaldinho, Kaka, and Ozil all have license to roam, to find space and to take players on. The 3 in tandem will be a nightmare to handle.
People are getting too obsessed about formations. Ozil is shown on the right but players move all the time. He'll not be a touchline hugging winger like Valencia. When its not him on the right it'll be Mendieta, Kaka, Ronaldinho or Torres. Its a flexible formation designed to pick holes throughout Fergus' defence.
One of my last posts i said i was handing over the reins as i seen Snow had just came online. Since then i seen that both he and Fergus had both gone offline for over half an hour.
I don't mind sitting out completely for the remainder, was just addressing a couple of replies that were directed at me.
Done
Agree with that. I know Cutch is trying to argue only when Snow isn't around, but I think that's a bit unfair too. There will always be one of them around to argue, while Fergus obviously won't always be here.
Aldo, its no different to the All Time Draft when i was up against both yourself and MJJ. It didn't bother me, it meant being able to continue debates.
Fair enough though, i'll leave anymore arguing to Snow from here on in. He's better than me at that anyway
Fair enough though, i'll leave anymore arguing to Snow from here on in. He's better than me at that anyway
Went for Snow. Sorry Fergus'. I really wanted to vote you, but couldn't bring myself to.
Aldo, its no different to the All Time Draft when i was up against both yourself and MJJ. It didn't bother me, it meant being able to continue debates.
Fair enough though, i'll leave anymore arguing to Snow from here on in. He's better than me at that anyway
I was antohan's assistant in that, mate.
Even worse! How the hell did i manage against both of you's
I don't think I got involved much in any of the games. He's more than a handful himself.
Can't believe Fergus'son can lose this. Ronaldinho, Kaka, and Ozil won't track back, leaving Albeda and Mendieta to battle the midfield. And Albelda isn't as good as Makelele to protect Terry and Carvalho (where they're exposed not as good, when Makelele retired). Then, since when Gallas is a right back. He isn't even that good as left back.
Ah boy. Theres a post with so much wrong in it and i can't reply
I voted for Snow. Mainly because the attacking talents will be enough to overcome a less than stellar defense. I don't particularly rate either Tarnat or Samuels very highly. Then you have Thuram who's a good RB as he often showed for France but prefers playing Center back. So yeah I think Snow's team will score more goals and hence win
Thuram at right back can in no way be a weakness IMO - he's one of the best of all time in that position. His Juve form at centre back was never as good as at right back. At Parma they played a three man defence to my knowledge and he was on the right of that trio, so it was a slightly different role again but RB was always his best position.