Aimar in his peak for Valencia was better, delightful player
Redafe Champions League Draft - Snow v Fergus'son
- Thread starter Theon
- Start date
I rate them both highly although they are different players who provide different threats. Moller's contributions to the Champions League in the mid-1990s were considerable and probably something that the passage of time has lessened in many people's eyes.
Balu advised me that "no one has ever loved Moller" so I thought it might be best to take him out! 
He did claw back a few votes for me but was probably a better fit tactically to start with?
He did claw back a few votes for me but was probably a better fit tactically to start with?
Balu advised me that "no one has ever loved Moller" so I thought it might be best to take him out!
He did claw back a few votes for me but was probably a better fit tactically to start with?
I don't think it was really to do with Moller. I think a few were holding back anyway until nearer the end, while others would have been voting to keep things interesting.
There's a lot of players prior to about 2004 that people barely seem to be aware of on here, very few seemed to appreciate even Mendieta for example so i'd be surprised if Moller who played before that contributed to the swing of votes.
This looks like it turned out to be the contest everyone was hoping for. It seems there was quite a comeback! What did that boil down to? Scanning over the posts it seems Snow's superior defence wasn't rated as highly as it should have and his arguably more fluid attack was in more trouble for no graft than for their attacking attributes... leaving the entire discussion to revolve around the weaker midfield and lack of control.
Well argued Fergus.
Where was Snow though?
Well argued Fergus.
Where was Snow though?
Not to drag this up again (I'm not bitter, I promise!
) but that's essentially the summary of Gio's midfield against me and it didn't count against him. My middle third was far superior to Gio's in my view but it wasn't reflected on the scoreline.I think Snow and Cutch made a huge mistake on basing their back four on Chelsea's, a team not looked upon too favourably here. Also the fact that this back four didn't actually win the Champions League together makes it all the more contentious an issue. Sure by all means try to form natural partnerships, but they need to be out of the very top drawer to be vote-winners in my opinion. Look at Gio with Montero and Ferdinand; voters can imagine those two playing together and being a success, and I'd take those two over Terry and Carvalho any day.
Each to their own I suppose.
His right side of Gallas and Ozil wasn't going down too well I think.
I did say, had I been playing a seasoned draft veteran such as yourself, Tarnat himself would be cowering and shaking in a corner somewhere to this day! They missed a trick not targeting him specifically and it cost them the game IMO...
As I said, Fergus must have pitched it well. It isn't comparable anyway as you were quite poor in some other areas in a way Fergus wasn't... and Gio had an awesome back four, the best in the draft and one I can't see him improving much on (bar someone like Nesta or Vidic himself on for Montero).
You are underrating Snow's back 5. They were formidable at their peak, regardless of when they actually won the CL. Voters were hardly going to give them the credit they deserved though, I agree on that.
You are underrating Snow's back 5. They were formidable at their peak, regardless of when they actually won the CL. Voters were hardly going to give them the credit they deserved though, I agree on that.
I mentioned in the main thread he probably had the best left flank in the draft and the least exciting right one. I reckon Gallas would deal with Villa FWIW, and whether Tarnat ventured forward or not I would fancy Ozil having the most joy on that flank.
I'm surprised it wasn't quite clearly a case of better defence + better flanks + resulting more fluid attack vs. better midfield control (yet that midfield being bypassed via the flanks...). I did feel Albelda could be their undoing, it was a good pair that, but was never going to get much kudos. Had Snow picked Simeone in round 9 instead of Cech this would have been in the pocket.
Frustrating as hell tbh. Having Ronaldinho and Kaka seemed to count for nothing, would have been better off with Dirk Kuyt and Ji Sung Park. Definately not gonna make the mistake of picking Chelsea players again on one of these, they're hated. Thought we'd have been safe enough with Gallas until the 2nd round, given that Fergus' had David Villa on the wing. Ozil wasn't a popular pick, nomatter how many times i said he wouldn't be playing as an out and out winger, no one seemed to listen.
Mendieta also seemed to get little credit. Thought he was the best midfielder on the park, yet most thought we would lose the midfield battle. Didn't think many would have remembered Simeone that fondly, and our cnut count was getting a bit high.
Midfield cnuts are OK though, we all keep pining for the good old days when he had the biggest of them all.
Mendieta never gets the credit he deserves. He is just regarded as "good midfielder, will do a job, probably won't dominate or be dominated by others". I guess most would have said Mendieta = Pigmounter but Makelele>>>>Albelda, both as individuals and as a partnership. Mind you, his midfield was indeed stronger from a recovery and possession POV.
My personal life got in the way of this date. I did mention in the draft thread that I would at least not be available the weekend before because of my brother's wedding and that "interference" kept on going longer than I expected. I was basically drunk for 3 days and then had to work late on Tuesday and Wednesday. I was as much on as time allowed me to be.
I should have won it though. Two people (the deciding vote as well that I did not agree upon I might add) voted for Fergus because they didn't like Özil. Not that they didn't like him on the right. Because they didn't like Özil. Such a weird comment to make given who he was up against. Not surprising since one of them is a notorious Real Madrid hater who puts personal opinion above logic every time in that regard.
Can't say things were well argued. I've found many posters argue one thing in these threads when rating other teams then when it comes to their own they do a 180°. Now when are they being sincere?
The back 5 counted for absolutely nothing. People that aren't participating didn't care at all and don't seem to take anything into consideration to what's written in the tactics section. You can't argue against our defense. It's literally been proven to be the best that the PL has seen yet a hypothetical center back pairing is somehow better?
Then Gio comes in with his vote in the end saying that if he had put on Schneider then things would have turned out differently despite having answered, when asked his opinion about the player, that he wasn't a vote winner or a cock-out type player. Well, Özil is a cock-out type player. La Liga watchers have been raving about him for years and with good reason whilst I don't think many posters here, myself included, watched the Bundesliga in 1995-2002.
Sometimes the full back is all that matters in a game. Sometimes you go to the final with Gary Kelly as your full back. If team cohesion and proven team tactics would mean a thing then we wouldn't have lost this.
I genuinely believe that this tie was lost based on personal opinion of a player or players rather than their actual quality as footballers. I'm really against that and I really dislike that because my brain doesn't function that way.
Hadn't picked up on that. Sounds like you had a blast!
That's what I find strange, how Ozil and Gallas were allowed to be the issue when they were facing Villa and Tarnat.
I don't agree with the casting vote mechanism either, something should be clearly established in advance. That said, draws usually descend into a farse whatever is or isn't agreed.
The tactics sections are waaaaay too long, that's why I advocate the PM approach. If you can't fit it in 2500 (?) characters then no one will read it anyway.
Your entire case probably was 4-5 bullet points that you just had to drive home, rinse and repeat. You had a better and proven back 5, had superior pairs on both flanks, more width and subtlety upfront, and a proven central midfield pair that would hold its own.
His two CBs were good players, but I can't believe the eyesore of two LCBs wasn't picked on. Ayala was usually positioned on the left (as on the teamsheet) but Samuel was left footed and clearly not suited to be on the right. The best part of his defence was Thuram but he was facing Ronaldinho and Cole. Good luck with that, even if you are Thuram, let alone with a left-footer at RCB.
That was changed, when Ayala and Samuel played together it was with Ayala on the right and that's what I was meant to end up with.
They should've targeted Tarnat a lot more, simple swap of Ronaldinho and Ozil and they would've won.
Did make my thoughts on Gallas at RB pretty clear before I even drew Cutch, was always going to be an issue in this draft and it did prove so, especially with a CAM playing in front of him who they kept saying would hardly be playing on the right. Let Tarnat off easy and gave Villa a good go at Gallas, and that's a world class player vs a good but not world class player.
Ozil on the right was a strange pick and I think Gallas and Cech didn't need to snapped up so early, particularly Gallas. They probably could've waited for the 12th pick to land him IMO.
Overall, I think I definitely had the better right side, my lb was poor but not targeted at all, I had the better midfield, the best two defenders in the game, and a far superior and reliable goal threat.
They should've targeted Tarnat a lot more, simple swap of Ronaldinho and Ozil and they would've won.
Did make my thoughts on Gallas at RB pretty clear before I even drew Cutch, was always going to be an issue in this draft and it did prove so, especially with a CAM playing in front of him who they kept saying would hardly be playing on the right. Let Tarnat off easy and gave Villa a good go at Gallas, and that's a world class player vs a good but not world class player.
Ozil on the right was a strange pick and I think Gallas and Cech didn't need to snapped up so early, particularly Gallas. They probably could've waited for the 12th pick to land him IMO.
Overall, I think I definitely had the better right side, my lb was poor but not targeted at all, I had the better midfield, the best two defenders in the game, and a far superior and reliable goal threat.
Definitely agree with these points. Tarnat was undoubtedly the worst player on the pitch, but he wasn't being targeted so it didn't matter. Also, despite some flashy names, Snow's right flank was incredibly weak; If Ozil was 'floating around' as they stated numerous times, then that means Gallas effectively has to control the entire right flank by himself, a tough ask considering he is a centre-back.
Snow's side had the better individuals, but as a team it's a bit of a clusterfeck.
For what it's worth, I would have voted for Snow's team.
Fair enough but there's a distinction between a vote-winning player like a current star of La Liga and a less well regarded player who might fit the team better. I make that pretty clear consistently across these threads. I forewarned you and Cutch the way my vote was heading a few hours before it was casted. But ultimately I saw the introduction of Moller as wrestling control of your already top-heavy midfield which wasn't necessarily an issue early on in the match but increasingly so as the game wore on. There was also little effort to target Tarnat and I envisaged his left peg becoming more useful as the game went on (a deep diagonal cross from an untracked Tarnat to Muller v Cole could cause problems just like we saw in last year's Champions League final).
Yes he isn't as highly regarded as he should be. Neither is Albelda who like another half a dozen defensive midfielders in this draft is on par with Makelele but won't be as well received.
As much as Müller or Villa were "controlling" their flanks. What would Gallas be controlling? Defense isn't played 1 on 1. It's a team effort. If your back 4 are cohesive and get just a little bit of help it's hell to break down. You can't win a game if you can't score.
Mendieta always played more towards the right. But it very much seems that people are generally clueless when it comes to him so it's a moot point. If I had picked the exact same team as that classy Valencia side there's no way I'd get votes. Kily Gonzales and Mendieta in a midfield diamond with Aimar in front of them and Albelda behind them? It would be ridiculed despite it having shown success IRL. That's how much people know about that Valencia side.
Basically, the further you tread back and the fewer WC/FM stars you pick the fewer votes you'll get.
Your Valencia diamond just reminded me of something I was going to mention earlier on the other game thread. Real used to have Makelele and Zidane with Figo and Solari out wide. Some would depict it as a diamond, some as a flat four, but whichever way you did you would be told that midfield is bound to get run over... yet they pissed on us and won the CL.