RAWK Goes Into Lockdown 2017/20-18 Edition | LOLis Karius

[JB08]

Not sure this one knows how cocks and/or masturbation works.

 

[montpelier]

West Ham are above Liverpool even though they drew and West Ham lost by 4 goals to nil.

Liverpool are perceived to have dropped 2 points in a winnable game, the Hammers didn't have no chance

Projected finishing points now (if in Title Winning Form) - LFC 88pts, West Ham, 89pts - (I think)

<shoots self anyway>

 

[antohan]

West Ham are above Liverpool even though they drew and West Ham lost by 4 goals to nil.

I would buy that in that West Ham (-1) could hope for a draw at best while they expected a win (-2). So an expected outcome basis explains it.

What has me scratching my head is both Liverpool and Watford losing two points when, by definition, they couldn't both win. You can only argue for that being correct on a PL table actual points on the board basis, but that's too sensible.

 

[Revan]

They're both mental.

RWAK is sort of the harmless mental that is constantly jerking off in inappropriate situations, and occasionally shits in their hands and smears it all over themselves. Mental like, but no real threat to you, and sort of funny.

Blue moon is the sort of mental that keeps their dead mum in the loft, and you wake to find them standing at the foot of your bed with a sledgehammer.

fecking hell

 

[Gjx]

slightly off topic but still liverpool related, what's the deal with sturridge? does he still exist?

True to form he injured himself pre season, think I was the Bayern match. Didn't look serious, prob a
strain and a few weeks off, plenty of time to pick up something more long term.

 

[MrMarcello]

They're both mental.

RWAK is sort of the harmless mental that is constantly jerking off in inappropriate situations, and occasionally shits in their hands and smears it all over themselves. Mental like, but no real threat to you, and sort of funny.

Blue moon is the sort of mental that keeps their dead mum in the loft, and you wake to find them standing at the foot of your bed with a sledgehammer.

It's funny cause its true.

Immediately thought of this.

Spoiler

 

[Katalinski]

Not sure this one knows how cocks and/or masturbation works.

They've probably developed new ways of doing it, one of these is doing it to each other

 

[Alex99]

I would buy that in that West Ham (-1) could hope for a draw at best while they expected a win (-2). So an expected outcome basis explains it.

What has me scratching my head is both Liverpool and Watford losing two points when, by definition, they couldn't both win. You can only argue for that being correct on a PL table actual points on the board basis, but that's too sensible.

Alt. Tables work on the basis that teams are trying to win the league, regardless of the previous season's standings. However, expected results are based on the previous season's standings.

Watford were at home, so by default their expected result was a win. Liverpool were away to one of the bottom sides from last season, so their expected result was also a win. They drew, so they're both two points down on expectations.

 

[montpelier]

I would buy that in that West Ham (-1) could hope for a draw at best while they expected a win (-2). So an expected outcome basis explains it.

What has me scratching my head is both Liverpool and Watford losing two points when, by definition, they couldn't both win. You can only argue for that being correct on a PL table actual points on the board basis, but that's too sensible.

Ah, but y'see... the comparison is with the form of a mythical Title winning team & not with each other or what happens in reality. Tbf, it's a theoretical model.

My imaginary Scouse mate tells me it's kind of like a golf course where the players are playing different holes. And actually have to because they can never play the same holes. At the end of the day for the model - Watford (away) is clearly a different hole to Liverpool (home).

Although they are climbing the same hill.

 

[Earthquake]

They've probably developed new ways of doing it, one of these is doing it to each other

You'll Never Wank Alone?

 

[Ramshock]

Alt. Tables work on the basis that teams are trying to win the league, regardless of the previous season's standings. However, expected results are based on the previous season's standings.

Watford were at home, so by default their expected result was a win. Liverpool were away to one of the bottom sides from last season, so their expected result was also a win. They drew, so they're both two points down on expectations.

So how do they calculate two similar level clubs who are usually say 10th and 11th every season and are playing each other? Is the 10th place team always expected to beat the 11th place team? What if the 11th team has a better goal difference but is only 1 point behind?

Basically its all contrived bollocks to make them feel better for not winning the title for almost 30 years.

 

[Lentwood]

Don't put any thought into it, you'll get nowhere fast.

I understand the basic concept but if Spurs don't get a point for beating Newcastle then how can Newcastle be on -3? Surely that could only be the case if they were expected to win - but then shouldn't Spurs be +3? Sounds mental to me - what's wrong with the actual league table?

 

[Ramshock]

They were convinced that once Fergie retired they had a free ride back to the top and we'd end up in mid-table obscurity. Moyes coming in and us finishing 7th while they mounted a one off title charge just cemented that viewpoint.

However, since then, despite us still not returning to our Fergie-led best, we've won more trophies in the last two seasons than they have in their last twelve. They've not know how to react to this, which is why even among the more reasonable Liverpool fans, they're coming out with nonsense about average finishing positions, number of years finishing above United, and weirdly taking the piss out of the last two trophies they've won, as well as the Europa League, which they failed to win.

They've spent the last 25 years desperate for even the smallest piece of Premier League success, but have instead had to endure United dominating proceedings, with even Blackburn and Leicester getting a slice of the pie before them. They've spent the last 25 years absolutely convincing themselves that every coming season is their year to return to the top of the pile, only for many of those seasons to produce nothing but abject mediocrity as multiple teams leave them in their dust. They consoled themselves through the 90s and early 00s with cup wins, but they dried up 10 years ago, which is why they moved onto "net-spend this" and "golden glove that."

Klopp coming in was supposed to signal yet another return to the glory years, but after bottling two cups first time around, scraping 4th the second, and looking on the verge of losing his star player before the third has even really began, they need to lash out elsewhere.

They've spent 25 years celebrating league titles in August, only to be out of the race by January. They look at us now, and see a team that maybe, just maybe, is starting to come together, under one of the most decorated managers still in the game. They've gone from 100% certainty that we were finished once Fergie retired, and 100% certainty that they were going to fill the void, to four seasons later, where we've won three major trophies to their zero and are potentially finally beginning to click, while their progress has been marginal at best.

With that in mind, it's quite easy to see why they think we're acting as if the title is wrapped up already, because it's exactly how they'd behave in our situation. It's far easier for them to project their boom-bust-cycle onto us, than face the reality that their balloon has burst before it was even inflated properly.

As you've said, United fans claiming league titles already are few and far between. Most, if not all that I've come across are tentatively optimistic about some form of title challenge this season, and even then a lot of that is born through rose-tinted expectation than reasoned appraisal of the strength of our opponents.

We've started well, and we've started better than them, but there's a very long way to go yet and there are more teams than Liverpool to be worrying about. We can leave them to their belief that we're still playing turgidly boring, negative football week in week out, and they can keep pretending that shipping three goals to relegation battlers is entertaining, and hopefully come May, we'll be in the title mix and they'll be bemoaning bad luck and refereeing decisions as an excuse for them being 6th.

Encapsulated the essence of the dipper perfectly. Great post that should have been titled Eau du Dipper

 

[Robertd0803]

It was all going so well on Friday morning, .

He's on loan at Liverpool Hospital.

No hes really on loan at Liverpool Football Club. Liverpool hospital is his permanent residence.

 

[pascell]

Not from RAWK but a liverpool fan nonetheless who believes qualifying will be better than going to the group automatically.

Early season contest, what about their heroic conquest of the PL Asia Cup? They had themselves down to take over the world after that highly prestigious victory.

 

[Katalinski]

You'll Never Wank Alone?

Exactly

 

[Alex99]

So how do they calculate two similar level clubs who are usually say 10th and 11th every season and are playing each other? Is the 10th place team always expected to beat the 11th place team? What if the 11th team has a better goal difference but is only 1 point behind?

Basically its all contrived bollocks to make them feel better for not winning the title for almost 30 years.

It's a common misconception that Liverpool always win their Alt. Table. They never have, because if run properly, which theirs is, it should merge with the real league table as the season finishes.

They definitely use it to make themselves feel better about being behind, especially after seasons like last season where they picked up points in the 'big' games, a number convinced themselves that all was still rosy even after the January collapse.

Where I think the confusion comes from is the separate discussions they had the other year with people posting tables like "if shots that hit the woodwork were goals" and "if the league ran between February and November" which on here often get mixed in with the Alt. Table. Those sorts of criteria are never considered, because as people quite rightly point out, they're nonsense. A number on RAWK do seem to enjoy celebrating the "if we only played the top 6" table and other such shite though.

All of the Alt. Tables I've come across run on the same basic template:

• All teams are separated into groups - roughly Top, Middle and Bottom
• Teams are expected to win all 19 home games, as well as all away games vs the Bottom teams
• Teams are expected to draw all away games vs the Middle teams
• Teams are expected to lose all away games vs the Top teams

The points a team would gain from achieving these results is then set as a Par for winning the league. Matching the expected result in any given week will provide a team with 0 points from Par. Bettering it provides points on par depending on how much better they did (e.g. winning when a draw was expected would provide +2, drawing when a loss was expected +1). Doing worse then results in losing points on par in the same manner.

I ran one last season where I worked out the positions based on an average over 5 seasons. This season I've simply taken last season's standings, with the newly promoted clubs replacing those relegated. I split mine Top 6, Middle, Bottom 6. As the target is to win the league, the Top 6 only accounts for 10 games for each team, as a team would have to be part of the top 6 to win the league. As such, United, as last season's 6th placed finishers, count as a Middle team for all teams outside of last season's Top 6. Likewise, Palace count as a Bottom 6 team for last season's 15th-17th and the newly promoted sides.

It's by no means a perfect model, but in a scenario where Team A is 6 points clear of Team B with 5 games left, the Alt. Table might show Team B as higher because their remaining games are either at home, or away to the bottom sides, while Team A has to visit 3 of the Top 6 during the run-in. Of course it should be taken with a pinch of salt, but for some it provides an interesting way to look the league as the season unfolds.

 

[GaryLifo]

I understand the basic concept but if Spurs don't get a point for beating Newcastle then how can Newcastle be on -3? Surely that could only be the case if they were expected to win - but then shouldn't Spurs be +3? Sounds mental to me - what's wrong with the actual league table?

Spurs should be expected to win and so winning means they are 'on par' and so they are on zero.

I agree though that Newcastle surely weren't expected to win at home against last season's runners up and so surely they should also be on zero.

Likewise, Burnley surely weren't expected to draw at Chelsea and so should be +3 no?

 

[Ian Reus]

Seri cross the Mersey...

Red poets society...

 

[GaryLifo]

It's a common misconception that Liverpool always win their Alt. Table. They never have, because if run properly, which theirs is, it should merge with the real league table as the season finishes.

They definitely use it to make themselves feel better about being behind, especially after seasons like last season where they picked up points in the 'big' games, a number convinced themselves that all was still rosy even after the January collapse.

Where I think the confusion comes from is the separate discussions they had the other year with people posting tables like "if shots that hit the woodwork were goals" and "if the league ran between February and November" which on here often get mixed in with the Alt. Table. Those sorts of criteria are never considered, because as people quite rightly point out, they're nonsense. A number on RAWK do seem to enjoy celebrating the "if we only played the top 6" table and other such shite though.

All of the Alt. Tables I've come across run on the same basic template:

• All teams are separated into groups - roughly Top, Middle and Bottom
• Teams are expected to win all 19 home games, as well as all away games vs the Bottom teams
• Teams are expected to draw all away games vs the Middle teams
• Teams are expected to lose all away games vs the Top teams

The points a team would gain from achieving these results is then set as a Par for winning the league. Matching the expected result in any given week will provide a team with 0 points from Par. Bettering it provides points on par depending on how much better they did (e.g. winning when a draw was expected would provide +2, drawing when a loss was expected +1). Doing worse then results in losing points on par in the same manner.

I ran one last season where I worked out the positions based on an average over 5 seasons. This season I've simply taken last season's standings, with the newly promoted clubs replacing those relegated. I split mine Top 6, Middle, Bottom 6. As the target is to win the league, the Top 6 only accounts for 10 games for each team, as a team would have to be part of the top 6 to win the league. As such, United, as last season's 6th placed finishers, count as a Middle team for all teams outside of last season's Top 6. Likewise, Palace count as a Bottom 6 team for last season's 15th-17th and the newly promoted sides.

It's by no means a perfect model, but in a scenario where Team A is 6 points clear of Team B with 5 games left, the Alt. Table might show Team B as higher because their remaining games are either at home, or away to the bottom sides, while Team A has to visit 3 of the Top 6 during the run-in. Of course it should be taken with a pinch of salt, but for some it provides an interesting way to look the league as the season unfolds.

Okay, get that... so why are Burnley only on +2 for winning away to Chelsea?

 

[Alex99]

Okay, get that... so why are Burnley only on +2 for winning away to Chelsea?

Presumably whoever is compiling that one has a base of being unbeaten, so the expectation was a draw. Only way I can make sense of it. That or a typo.

 

[Inter Yer Nan]

Who has won the last 5 alternative leagues? I'm assuming they have won a couple and we are mid table?

 

[Alex99]

Who has won the last 5 alternative leagues? I'm assuming they have won a couple and we are mid table?

The actual league winners have won every single one

 

[montpelier]

Spurs should be expected to win and so winning means they are 'on par' and so they are on zero.

I agree though that Newcastle surely weren't expected to win at home against last season's runners up and so surely they should also be on zero.

Likewise, Burnley surely weren't expected to draw at Chelsea and so should be +3 no?

If Burnley are gonna get 90pts - 1 of them gets got at Chelsea - so they're 2 up on the required schedule, atm.

It's all very straightforward really, .

 

[NM]

Every year some on the caf make folls of themselves with the alternate tables. They don't understand them and laugh. They also forgot we had our own "storey-time" table a long time too.

 

[montpelier]

Every year some on the caf make folls of themselves with the alternate tables. They don't understand them and laugh. They also forgot we had our own "storey-time" table a long time too.

Maybe so, but there is also a perfectly sustainable argument that says they are a load of bollocks.

 

[Schmiznurf]

 

[JinnerJamie]

Every year some on the caf make folls of themselves with the alternate tables. They don't understand them and laugh. They also forgot we had our own "storey-time" table a long time too.

Yeah but we have the Essien calculator these days.

 

[Alex99]

Maybe so, but there is also a perfectly sustainable argument that says they are a load of bollocks.

They're not a perfect model and are certainly not without their flaws, but the line from those who take the piss is often founded in a fundamental misunderstanding and ignorance of how they actually work.

 

[trfc06]

Barca are coming to end of their dominant life cycle and they aren't even the best team in Spain atm. They have 2 ageing world class forwards in Messi & Suarez who are both now 30 even if Coutinho goes he's got maybe maximum 2 years playing with these guys before they're replaced, two if he stays another year.

so just the 3 seasons with the 2 best players in the world, in one of the most famous teams in the world, who regularly win League Titles and Champions leagues. On 3 times his current wages as well

Or 3 more seasons at loserpool under flopp

Which will he choose?

 

[montpelier]

The RAWK Mods Poster of the Year Award is in the bag already

GrovellingLittleGit writes

I was shocked reading the threads after the game,just how much pure bile was thrown at some of our players,and even the manager after game 1 which we DREW away from home.

I think we have the best manager in the country in Jurgen and a very exciting team of talented players and i like all of them with no exceptions.

We have 37 games left in the league and lots of games in Europe (hopefully CL) to be excited about,LFC has brought me happiness and memorable moments since i started following the club from the early 80:s and there's always been ups and downs,it's a part of the excitement for me,the unpredictability of it all.

Hopefully this thread remains a bastion of positivity on here throughout the season and i will certainly be looking forward to reading the posts here.

 

[Sad Chris]

It's a common misconception that Liverpool always win their Alt. Table. They never have, because if run properly, which theirs is, it should merge with the real league table as the season finishes.

So basically they can't even win the league they invented and made up their own rules for?

 

[SteveJ]

The RAWK Mods Poster of the Year Award is in the bag already

GrovellingLittleGit writes

That reminds me of the (surely fake) 'letters from our viewers' that the BBC routinely publishes, year after year:

'Last night's episode of Poldark in Space was worth the licence fee by itself. God bless the BBC!

Signed,
Mrs Ethel Crouton (Iron Cross, WWI)
Surrey'

 

[montpelier]

They're not a perfect model and are certainly not without their flaws, but the line from those who take the piss is often founded in a fundamental misunderstanding and ignorance of how they actually work.

You probably need to average 2.33 points per game to win the League - it doesn't matter where you get them. 10 out of 38 games are fairly universally perceived as more difficult, they're not evenly spread for teams across the 38 we don't think. But you still need 2.33 pts per game. A simpler examination is needed for me, and I think I know how to do it if we take the discussion somewhere else.

Because we're all going to be banned, .

 

[Alex99]

So basically they can't even win the league they invented and made up their own rules for?

I don't think they made it up. I don't know who did, but the general template and rules are used by many football fans of many different clubs.

It's a statistical model of sorts that balances the league by the difficulty of games played.

The scousers have definitely been guilty of looking at it in September and being overly optimistic about their chances, but it's not something they've made up with rules to favour them.

 

[spwd]

They're both mental.

RWAK is sort of the harmless mental that is constantly jerking off in inappropriate situations, and occasionally shits in their hands and smears it all over themselves. Mental like, but no real threat to you, and sort of funny.

Blue moon is the sort of mental that keeps their dead mum in the loft, and you wake to find them standing at the foot of your bed with a sledgehammer.

Well put Sir

No they will still find themselves at the top of that somehow. A new rule will be added like most away fans wearing shell suits in the crowd equals extra points.

West Ham are above Liverpool even though they drew and West Ham lost by 4 goals to nil.

Ermm

 

[SteveJ]

Every year some on the caf make folls of themselves with the alternate tables. They don't understand them and laugh. They also forgot we had our own "storey-time" table a long time too.

Coincidentally, that league was also the invention of someone whose team struggled to win a title.

 

[Sassy Colin]

The actual league winners have won every single one

If a top 6 team lost home and away against the other 5 top 6 teams but won all their other matches, they would have 84 points. Enough to win the league most years, I think, but where would that put them in the Alt league table?

Edit: Also, 2.21 points per game, btw

 

[Alex99]

If a top 6 team lost home and away against the other 5 top 6 teams but won all their other matches, they would have 84 points. Enough to win the league most years, I think, but where would that put them in the Alt league table?

Edit: Also, 2.21 points per game, btw

Wherever they finished in the real table, not accounting for goal difference

 

[Mindhunter]

@Alex99 Some really good points around the alternative premier league table.

What I dislike about it is that it discounts the psychological effect of having points on the board.