Haaland would struggle in our current line-up so I feel its a little pointless to write off Hojlund or even Zirkzee on the basis of what they are doing currently,
9
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 37
- Goals
- 7
- Assists
- 1
- Yellow cards
- 2
Well Erling actually nowadays even scoring is pulling out some real bad perfomances with some aspects that touch some of the things that here are demanded to Ramus or Zrikzee.
Just because you disagree with what I said doesn’t mean I’m plain wrong. I could also say the same thing to you that you’re plain wrong because conversion rates and shots on target% is reflection of being clinical, it doesn’t reflect to his ball striking ability.
So his shooting needs improving even though he scores more often than not when he does shoot? Care to elaborate a bit on how you think a striker with subpar shooting skills who hasn’t scored with a header manages to be clinical at the same time?
To be fair, it’s very possible and plausible, and a high conversion rate (especially from a very small sample of shots) doesn’t mean a player has amazing shooting technique. Firstly, many goals in football don’t really even require amazing shooting technique, and also - you miss all of the shots you don’t take. There are situations where a lethal shooter, like Kevin de Bruyne for example, would shoot where others wouldn’t. A ball dropping from the sky at the edge of the box represents a different prospect to KDB than it does for Hojlund. The same ball might be brought down and laid off by Rasmus because the shot is ‘not on’.
Van Persie had the best shooting ability I can think of at United, and it has little to do with a conversion rate. He could simply strike the ball sweetly, accurately and powerfully from a range of situations. He can drive them, bend them, drive/bend at the same time, place them with accuracy. I don’t think Hijlund has displayed this yet. He has a good conversation rate, but in almost two seasons, he still has a fair bit fewer goals than Persie managed in his first season alone. I say this to say, it’s an incredibly small sample.
Yes, but if you read the former posts you’ll see that the original claim was that he needs to improve his shooting. My point was that there’s no indication of that, but that it would be fair to say he should shoot more often. So the burden of proof is really on the poster claiming that his shooting is bad.
I already explained it to you that I was referring to his ball striking. Striker scoring more or being clinical has nothing to do with his ball striking ability. Anyone can score goals with tap in or chip it in. @Rozay explained it even better yet you still don’t understand.
RVP is a great example for any united fans can imagine what I meant by Hojlund needs to improve his ball striking. ‘’He could simply strike the ball sweetly, accurately and powerfully from a range of situations. He can drive them, bend them, drive/bend at the same time, place them with accuracy. ‘’ Have you seen Hojlund display it? I haven’t. Rozay hasn’t. And I’m sure you and the others in here haven’t too. If no one haven’t seen it then it’s proof from the eye test that Hojlund needs to improve his ball striking.
Even his last seasons goals -
One bounced off his chest unintentionally
Another one was vs wolves where he fell on the goal line with the defender and the ball rolled to the goal.
The finish vs Newport was meh.
His best goals have come vs tottenham, Newcastle & Bodoglimt.
Good goals but nothing really jaw dropping.
Even his last seasons goals -
One bounced off his chest unintentionally
Another one was vs wolves where he fell on the goal line with the defender and the ball rolled to the goal.
The finish vs Newport was meh.
His best goals have come vs tottenham, Newcastle & Bodoglimt.
Good goals but nothing really jaw dropping.
That was a good finish and completely intentional.
I know it's everyone's favourite hobby to tear this lad down currently but no need to make things up to do so.
He is never in the right placeat the right time, it can be because he doesn't have that instinct or he doesn't have the acceleration needed to beat the defender or both. He will not succeed in a big club that requires doing it over and over and over again multiple times per game. There is no evidence his shooting is that good either, all the data is based on one season.
I would sell him or loan him out in the summer.
I would sell him or loan him out in the summer.
I do understand. You haven’t seen him strike the ball well from range and conclude he has to improve his shooting. I say that we really haven’t seen him try at all hence don’t know if he’s good at it or not - the only evidence we have is from quite close range and he’s excellent at that. Yes, I know it’s not excactly the same, but he’s had quite a few nice shots in different way and from different angles. Even if that doesn’t prove that he’s good at shooting from longer distances at least it doesn’t prove the opposite either.
For me it’s very simple: You’ve made a claim that you can’t back up and insist on doubling down.
Anyway, it’s not important enough to keep this going. I’ll just remind you that in my first answer I said I agreed with your points bar this one.
Interesting to see that in the article published today in the Athletic that he is making the same runs and demonstrates the same movement on the pitch that Gyokeres does at Sporting. It does rather support the idea that it is a team issue executing on Amorim's system rather than simply an issue with Hojlund or even Zirkzee for that matter.
If you have watched Sporting and United you will know this is complete nonsense
This is my issue - I regularly get pushed back on the "We need a new striker" with "There is no service".
As someone who has played as a striker and in behind I can tell you that if my striker isn't making the right runs I've got nowhere to go other than to recycle the ball which to most will appear as though there is no creation or service for the striker. The striker has to make that run or give me the nod that he's about to so I can release it, what's odd is he was very good at that when he started and admittedly then nobody was finding his runs probably because they were still getting used to his game but since then he has just stopped making those runs and he isn't someone who is aerially dominant so that ball in behind or across the defender is only coming from the team when your striker is making that run.
Maybe it will click with him but I do think if we had a striker that was consistently making those runs that we would create at least a few chances a game with people like Amad, Bruno & Mainoo very capable of playing that little deft pass between the lines and between the CBs.
Football is played on spreadsheets these days. Believe what you read not what you see.
I have and it is not. We simply don't play the ball in behind for the striker making those runs, it has been a failing of our attacking play going back at least 4 or 5 seasons and counting. We like to progress the ball slowly and incrementally as we seem to think it is unsporting not to allow the opposition to make sure they have 10 men behind the ball before we trying an attacking move. Rasmus starts most games running in behind and watching in despair as Dalot or whoever looks up and then turns around and pushes the ball backwards to play through the Horseshoe for the 15th fecking time.
If you make a run, Bruno will absolutely look for you. Garnacho has been played through 1v1 several times this season already. He makes runs and we release him early from deep. So unless the notion is that there is some sort of conspiracy against Hojlund, I would say that he is simply not available as frequently as Garnacho. The two times I can think of off the top of my head where he’s been played through like that, he’s missed anyway (Liverpool away and Brentford away last season).
This is wrong, Amorim has been one of the main reasons we have slowed our game down, the team has mainly been scoring goals from transitions before his arrival and he made a specific point about the team keeping the ball and being better in possession.
Hojlund does not hold the ball well enough, his runs into the channels when the ball is played there he loses the duel with the defender more often than not. Garnacho and Amad have been played in behind by the way. Even Zirkzee has been whilst playing as the CF
Our build up is indeed too slow and methodical, I'm not arguing that it isn't but that doesn't mean Hojlund is making runs into channels and behind that are ignored.
This is what I've been saying.
Garnacho makes the runs that Hojlund should be making. Garnacho is more a channel running striker than Hojlund. Hojlund is just a poacher with a burst of pace when the defence is completely cut open.
I guess some of us are very forgetful because we no longer have McT to show up his flaws.
It's a bit like Bellingham and Mbappe but at elementary level:
It's a bit like Bellingham and Mbappe but at elementary level:
Can someone post Cavani's all United goals posted by Manchester United on YouTube today please?
I know he was a more experienced striker but it shows how if Hojlund made the right runs we would be still providing him service.
I know he was a more experienced striker but it shows how if Hojlund made the right runs we would be still providing him service.
Not really, we have a very different line up than we did when Cavani was here, we are playing a very different system and not for nothing but Hojlund has already scored more goals for United than Cavani did.
A poacher who is almost never in the right spot to poach a tap in.
He is still so young. I think he has the tools and work ethic to succeed.
Why? Different teams, managers and players? Cavani undoubtedly had better movement than Hojlund but he also struggled compared to previous clubs, scored 10 PL goals in his best season and from memory that was heavily against the relegation teams.Also surely it's already there, just type in Cavani Man United and someone will have done it.
Also surely it's already there, just type in Cavani Man United and someone will have done it.
Well just see how many times Bruno Fernandes finds him & yet we hardly see Bruno ever finding Hojlund
Even Rashford finds Cavani from crosses.
Hojlund gets no service because his movement is shit. He isn't a channel running striker. Cavani even if he is shit shows what positioning is aswell as running in behind the defence is.
Alot of that doesn't require experience but more so a strikers instinct which I really doubt Hojlund has.
Cavani is possibly the striker with the best movement in the modern era. What a weird bar to judge a young striker by.
On a side note, it’s always unfair on here to compare our players, our very expensively signed players, to anyone good. It’s always ‘like yea, but he was probably the best at this or that’. We’ve become too used to and too accepting of our players just not being that good. Everyone got so offended when Phil Jagielka was used as an example for our defenders, and also think it’s so inappropriate when we use the best too. These guys are supposed to be the best. They play for Manchester United.
No it's absolutely fine to compare Hojlund to whoever you like. There are just far more insightful ways to knock him than to point out that his movement isn't as good as Edison Cavani, who's movement was uniquely good even amongst the very best world class players for a decade.
He isn't as good in the air as Ronaldo either, just seems like wasted words to complain about it.
I mean, sure, if we just continue down a completely irrelevant rabbit hole you can make up whatever stats you like.
He is 100% a channel running striker but when he runs the channels he is invisible to his teammates leading to his frustration. If you said he was not an old fashioned number 9 then I would agree with you as his hold up play is poor and he does not know how to play with his back to goal.
Regarding Cavani, yes he was great but he had 1 decent season and then effectively used us as rehab for the national team the following year when he threw his toys out of the pram over Ronaldo joining. In the prior year we were still playing a much more counter attacking style with conventional wingers like James who looked for the early pass or the cross from the byline, something our current wide players are very reluctant to do. We choose to prioritize advancing slowly with frequent balls backwards and our wide players like to keep the ball and try to run into the box and create an opportunity to shoot rather than look for the pass.
Who says Cavani’s movement was uniquely good? There have been several penalty box strikers with great movement. Hojlund shows up no more favourably when Cavani is substituted with Miroslav Klose or Jermaine Defoe either. Basically, once you start picking the strikers known for having good movement, it becomes unfair to compare Hojlund’s movement to them, because they were known to have good movement? Would it be fair to compare his movement to Van Nistelrooy’s? Or is the requirement to find a player who is poor at it?
He isn’t as good in the air as Harry Kane either, is that also unfair, or do I need to pick a striker who is poor in the air? The point I’m making is that our players are supposed to be amongst those that are good at things. They can’t keep being given a pass for not being recognised amongst those who are good at key metrics for their fecking positions. They are United players. Players signed to play central midfield for us are supposed to be able to do midfield things as well ss the players known for being particularly good at midfield things.
I say his movement was uniquely good, as would most. It was probably his best trait.
He's a young striker who is struggling so picking some of the best attributes from world class players and saying he isn't as good at that is just totally unproductive. At that point it isn't discussing anything of note, it's just a roundabout way of moaning.
Understanding the reality of where we are and the level of player we are discussing is not giving anyone a pass.
It is the good players that determine what the bar for being a United player is though. And it may well have been Cavani’s best trait. But there are a lot of strikers who had great movement.
And besides, you have chosen to spin the comment into a ‘Hojlund’s movement should be as good as Cavani’s’ statement, which is the real unproductive part. It becomes difficult to have constructive conversation when sentences are voluntarily distilled and filtered and not taken in their entirety or in context. The comment made was in reference to whether or not our players pass the ball to the centre forward or not, which typically forms the basis of the defence for Hojlund. Cavani was given as an example of a centre forward who has played in our team in recent times, with some of the same teammates (notably the same 10 behind him), and received plenty of the ball from him. As you know, the point is to illustrate that said number 10 has little hesitation in passing the ball to a centre forward who has found some space. Not that that should have ever been in doubt anyway, it is common knowledge that Bruno will continuously try to play forwards through, whether in space or not. I believe the poster also specifically mentioned Rashford, who Hojlund has also played with, as having regularly found Cavani in space.
Given the above, would you say that it is productive to the debate for you to respond by saying that it is unfair to compare the movement of Cavani to Hojlund, and that we may as well not have the conversation if that is what we are doing? Or more a case of deliberately not addressing the actual point.
No one who claims that Hojlund makes runs and isn't being found by his team mates can ever explain why it is these team mates rank so highly in metrics that measure forward passes into the final 3rd. The only player creating more chances or making key passes than Bruno over the last 5 years has been De Bruyne. I genuinely think some of the apologists would blame KDB for poor service if he was playing with Hoijlund.
Can the Hoijlund fans explain why it is all of these attacking players put up such better numbers with every other #9? Why did Bruno have such great numbers with Bas dost? Rashford/Martial/Cavani? What about the strikers he's played with for the Portuguese national team? Every striker seems to do very well but apparently when it comes to Rasmus he just doesn't pass to him.
Can the Hoijlund fans explain why it is all of these attacking players put up such better numbers with every other #9? Why did Bruno have such great numbers with Bas dost? Rashford/Martial/Cavani? What about the strikers he's played with for the Portuguese national team? Every striker seems to do very well but apparently when it comes to Rasmus he just doesn't pass to him.
Well you are making this about Bruno rather than about how the team is attacking as a whole and so you are making a different argument than the one that is being made concerning Hojlund's forward runs. In fact Hojlund and Bruno linked up quite effectively last season if you look at that in isolation but there are 11 players on the team not 2.
Hojlund has issues, not going to go through an exhaustive list of his strengths and weaknesses again but he does run the channels well and thrives on balls played into space when he is facing goal where conversely he is utterly diabolical with his back to goal playing as an old fashioned target man.
He is making the runs again this season and he is not being found. A lot of this is due to the general pace of our play and reluctance to play the ball forward quickly and Bruno operating out wide or in a deeper position rather than in his familiar number 10 position may be impacting this too, I have not dug into the stats to see if this is the case but certainly we are playing fewer balls into the space behind the defence other than late in games when we are chasing and the game gets stretched. Amorim mentioned that Hojlund is making the runs and the team is doing a poor job of finding him but also criticized Hojlund for getting frustrated and stressed that he needs to keep making the runs and trust the ball will eventually come.
Somehow Garnacho is managing to be put through on goal many times from these exact types of passes. In addition to just Garnacho, Casemiro is also renowned for the first time ball forward, and has played it many times in the last two seasons to all of our forward runners.
Casemiro who is not playing and Garnacho who has space because Hojlund is occupying defenders. Noted.
Casemiro is not playing now. And Maybe Hojlund should be less busy occupying defenders and start trying to occupy space.
Which is the point I was making and Amorim was making the other day. He needs to keep making the runs and not get frustrated and deviate from running the channels because if he is patient the ball will come.