Ralf’s 4-2-2-2

[stefan92]

Do any top teams in the year 2021 stretch opposition teams to create openeings?

Have you ever seen Man City do it?

Bayern are currently fielding a 3241 system, usually using one natural and one inverted winger for each side. They do it.

 

[pocco]

Do any top teams in the year 2021 stretch opposition teams to create openeings?

Have you ever seen Man City do it?

City would have been a good example of it. I've watched them many times this season play with wide players or fullbacks extremely wide, probably for this exact purpose. And it works. They stretch teams out horizontally and have runners from midfield running into spaces in their defence for crosses or they move the ball quickly from out wide to the centre and look for gaps left from there. Just basic stuff really but with their technically brilliant players, they move the ball with enough speed to make the most of it.

 

[stevoc]

Yes. When opponents used it we struggled, but it didn't happen often.

Well I recollect it happening a fair amount of the time, but maybe I am wrong. I remember us struggling to break down quite a few teams over the last few years.

 

[stevoc]

City would have been a good example of it. I've watched them many times this season play with wide players or fullbacks extremely wide, probably for this exact purpose. And it works. They stretch teams out horizontally and have runners from midfield running into spaces in their defence for crosses or they move the ball quickly from out wide to the centre and look for gaps left from there. Just basic stuff really but with their technically brilliant players, they move the ball with enough speed to make the most of it.

Some teams are better at than others and City are one of the best around. But yeah it's basic stuff when it come to football, use width to stretch your opponents defence to create openings. Just because something was effective 20 years ago doesn't necessarily mean it won't still be effective now. We don't have to stick rigidly to ideals of Alex Fergusons teams but on the same token don't have to abandon parts of it that can be integrated into modern tactics either just for the sake of being 'modern'.

 

[gerdm07]

The problem is that we have players suited to a 4-3-3. Thats what we planed, bought for and played for the last 3 or more years. Rashford is not a 9 and not a right sided player. We have tried that and it failed. Bruno is a free roaming number 10 that plays risk football. Sancho is better on the RW and Ronaldo is not a pressing 10. Now the question is - can they adapt and how many of them can we carry. And by carry I dont mean someone is useless just not 100 percent effective in the formation.

Ronaldo is obviously the person we carry. Yeah he did well against Palace and he's not totally useless in the press but we will still have to put up with his limitations. Sancho looks like he has the attributes to play at 10 and can adapt. Then the question is what do we do with Bruno and Rashford? Do we just keep training, developing and pushing these players into their non natural positions? What happens in 6 months? Do we get another manager and go back to a 4--3-3? Funnily enough I think our marginalized players are better suited to this football - Pogba (ok not marginalized but wants out), DVB, Lingard and Martial seem a better fit. On paper to me the best is Pogba and Sancho behind Ronaldo or Martial with DVB and Sancho behind Ronaldo and Greenwood.

For me this is why United have failed for so many years. We buy good players but then we dont give them the platform to succeed. Liverpool and City etc get players that suit their system. Thats why Klopp and Guardiola took time to adapt. They had to move out the players that didnt work and bring in the players that did. So tough calls need to be made. Do we marginalize the players we loved like Bruno and Rashford in favor of the likes of Martial, Pogba, DVB, Lingard?

And these players will have good games. It will work with Rashford, Sancho and Bruno in the side side sometimes. Question is will it work week in week out against low block teams, against physical teams, against top teams etc or will it be world class against the likes of Leeds and Palace then struggle against a low block for example

There is no place for Martial at United in any formation.

 

[UpWithRivers]

There is no place for Martial at United in any formation.

Name a better striker that can play next to Ronaldo? Someone who can hold on to the ball and bring other players in? Cavani yes but injuries and he is gone next year. Greenwood needs work. Rashford is not a striker. Then who?

 

[gerdm07]

Name a better striker that can play next to Ronaldo? Someone who can hold on to the ball and bring other players in? Cavani yes but injuries and he is gone next year. Greenwood needs work. Rashford is not a striker. Then who?

Greenwood is the obvious answer until Rashford gets his form back.

Martial doesn't score much, is a poor passer, and is lazy so he will not press the ball with any vigor. Given that, why would you want him to start? What does he bring?

Many will be surprise if he isn't sold in January.

 

[wolvored]

If you read some of the posts about the 4-2-4 you would have realised that people were not simply criticising the numerical label of laying the team out with four defenders, two midfielders etc. They were pointing out that in our particular attempt at a 4-2-4, there was too much of a gap between the midfield 2 and the front 4.

That has no connection whatsoever with the 4-2-2-2 which is an entirely different approach which, with the centre halves playing so high, narrows the distance between each phase or passage of play. It is in fact the solution to the issues caused by the poor 4-2-4 we were fuking round with.

Yes with the 4-4-2 you basically need WC CMs to cover for the wide men. With the 4-2-2-2- its easier for the 4 in the middle to break up play and stop the flow through the middle, as well as join defence with attack. The problem is then you need 2 WC WBs to play wide at both ends of the pitch. Unfortunately we have neither at the moment, although im hoping this will be rectified in January. This were not going to buy is a smokescreen imo, so prices dont get inflated if we declare our hand.

 

[wolvored]

Name a better striker that can play next to Ronaldo? Someone who can hold on to the ball and bring other players in? Cavani yes but injuries and he is gone next year. Greenwood needs work. Rashford is not a striker. Then who?

Martial is too inconsistant though. How many times does he get the ball and lose it. I would prefer Ronaldo to move over towards the centre/left, where he is used to playing and play Greenwood from the right. Rashford should be dropped and I think we would do so much better.

 

[bosnian_red]

I don’t really understand what stuff like this is supposed to mean.

Why? Because we did that 20 years ago?

Do any top teams in the year 2021 stretch opposition teams to create openeings?

Have you ever seen Man City do it?

Literally every top team looks at how it can effectively stretch the opposition to open up space. It was done differently over time but the most effective tactic in football has always been to still stretch the opposition. It's a lot simpler to create chances like that than to do intricate give and go's through the middle of a narrow defence.

 

[Carolina Red]

Literally every top team looks at how it can effectively stretch the opposition to open up space. It was done differently over time but the most effective tactic in football has always been to still stretch the opposition. It's a lot simpler to create chances like that than to do intricate give and go's through the middle of a narrow defence.

Jurgen Klopp’s teams play narrow and use TAA and Robertson for width. That’s basically what Rangnick is doing with the 4222 and Dalot / Telles.

 

[bosnian_red]

Jurgen Klopp’s teams play narrow and use TAA and Robertson for width. That’s basically what Rangnick is doing with the 4222 and Dalot / Telles.

Sure but it doesn't change that their primary tactic is still looking how to maximize the width of the pitch? I wouldn't say they play narrow at all. Their entire ball progression revolves around getting the ball to their wing backs in space and stretching the pitch through them. TAA is the most important player for them in terms of controlling games and ball progression. Robertson also key. They have their central players play a lot more conservative/support roles as their creativity is all in the wings.

Rangnick has for sure pushed for a lot more width already. It was very evident vs Crystal Palace, less so against Norwich but that was more because everyone kept giving it away. But it's evident that he's looking to get more progression through the wide areas and a lot more focus on either side of the box rather than forcing it through the middle.

 

[Carolina Red]

Sure but it doesn't change that their primary tactic is still looking how to maximize the width of the pitch? I wouldn't say they play narrow at all. Their entire ball progression revolves around getting the ball to their wing backs in space and stretching the pitch through them. TAA is the most important player for them in terms of controlling games and ball progression. Robertson also key. They have their central players play a lot more conservative/support roles as their creativity is all in the wings.

Rangnick has for sure pushed for a lot more width already. It was very evident vs Crystal Palace, less so against Norwich but that was more because everyone kept giving it away. But it's evident that he's looking to get more progression through the wide areas and a lot more focus on either side of the box rather than forcing it through the middle.

But like I said earlier, to me you're basically describing the same thing that Rangnick is doing with our 4222 and Dalot / Telles. Attackers and midfielders narrow, fullbacks providing the width.

As to the original post I responded to... Rangnick can provide both direct, narrow play, and width with the fullbacks in a 4222, the same as what Klopp has done with his narrow 433, so I don't see a need for a formation change... and I don't understand the sentiment of "we're Man United, we need to be stretching teams" just to stretch them. I want us to do what's effective, not something just because "we're Man United". That sounds an awful lot to me like the "United DNA".

 

[bosnian_red]

But like I said earlier, to me you're basically describing the same thing that Rangnick is doing with our 4222 and Dalot / Telles. Attackers and midfielders narrow, fullbacks providing the width.

As to the original post I responded to... Rangnick can provide both direct, narrow play, and width with the fullbacks in a 4222, the same as what Klopp has done with his narrow 433, so I don't see a need for a formation change... and I don't understand the sentiment of "we're Man United, we need to be stretching teams" just to stretch them. I want us to do what's effective, not something just because "we're Man United". That sounds an awful lot to me like the "United DNA".

Nobody is saying we must stretch teams because we're Man United, that's just because it is the thing that every big team has to know how to do effectively! A formation change isn't needed per se but Rangnick just likes it for our group of players. We have some excellent creators like Sancho/Bruno/Pogba who can play in that line behind the strikers, but we don't really have a striker who can be a lone #9 effectively other than Cavani. The 4-2-2-2 also kind of leaves Fred and McTominay to be box to box destroyers rather than pressure them into more on ball responsibility that they can't handle. I get it with the squad we have, but the formation isn't a huge deal at the end of the day. What matters is the instructions behind the formation.

 

[Carolina Red]

Nobody is saying we must stretch teams because we're Man United

The exact statement I replied to originally was: "Manchester United should be stretching teams not playing this narrow."

 

[bosnian_red]

The exact statement I replied to originally was: "Manchester United should be stretching teams not playing this narrow."

I dunno I took that as just a "good teams know how you stretch teams". I don't know of a single good team that doesn't stretch teams. But yeah nothing should be done just because of a previous history.

 

[Carolina Red]

I dunno I took that as just a "good teams know how you stretch teams". I don't know of a single good team that doesn't stretch teams. But yeah nothing should be done just because of a previous history.

Right now we aren't that good of a team, and honestly, I think part of our problem was we were too stretched out horizontally and had nothing vertically to work with in attack. Think of how many times you've seen a Man United team in recent years essentially in a straight line from sideline to sideline making no threat whatsoever.

 

[UpWithRivers]

Greenwood is the obvious answer until Rashford gets his form back.

Martial doesn't score much, is a poor passer, and is lazy so he will not press the ball with any vigor. Given that, why would you want him to start? What does he bring?

Many will be surprise if he isn't sold in January.

Martial is a better passer than Rashford and Greenwood and he works just as hard. Neither of Rashford or Greenwood are hard working pressing players. We need someone who can link with Ronaldo, hold up the ball and play intricate passes in tight spaces. At the moment you hit the front two and they cant hold onto the ball. We have to forget the past and start with a clean slate because we are playing a totally different system. In this new system we need specific types of players and that doesnt necessarily mean the favorites or the players who played well previously. I think Martial will be sold but Im just saying he is more suited to this style of football. Greenwood maybe but Ralf has already said he needs to improve physically and tactically.

 

[Hammondo]

Martial is a better passer than Rashford and Greenwood and he works just as hard. Neither of Rashford or Greenwood are hard working pressing players. We need someone who can link with Ronaldo, hold up the ball and play intricate passes in tight spaces. At the moment you hit the front two and they cant hold onto the ball. We have to forget the past and start with a clean slate because we are playing a totally different system. In this new system we need specific types of players and that doesnt necessarily mean the favorites or the players who played well previously. I think Martial will be sold but Im just saying he is more suited to this style of football. Greenwood maybe but Ralf has already said he needs to improve physically and tactically.

Since when did martial ever do intricate passes or do well in tight spaces? He's a runner, not at all how you describe.

 

[UpWithRivers]

Since when did martial ever do intricate passes or do well in tight spaces? He's a runner, not at all how you describe.

He's better than Rashford and Greenwood and its not even close

 

[Hammondo]

He's better than Rashford and Greenwood and its not even close

Greenwood is better than the other 2.

 

[bosskeano]

He's better than Rashford and Greenwood and its not even close

you must be watching a different Martial than the rest of us. Greenwood is a much better finisher and Rashford, despite his current shit form, is still a better player.

 

[UpWithRivers]

you must be watching a different Martial than the rest of us. Greenwood is a much better finisher and Rashford, despite his current shit form, is still a better player.

Its not about who is the better player overall or who is the better finisher its about who is the better number 9 in this system.

 

[King Azaz the Unabridged]

Think of how many times you've seen a Man United team in recent years essentially in a straight line from sideline to sideline making no threat whatsoever.

This is an example of a chronic failure to stretch teams effectively, not a reason to avoid trying it - we've been especially poor under Ole and Mourinho at using the full width of the pitch to draw teams out of position and make chances, exacerbated by virtually every attacker (Rashford, Martial, Pogba, Sanchez, now Ronaldo) wanting to play in the same inside-left channel and having no natural right-sided ones (and woefully limited right-backs in Valencia and Wan-Bissaka).

The post you seemingly took exception to was just saying we should be focusing on playing with width and stretching teams because it's effective. I'm not sure I agree with the implication that we can't do that with a 4-2-2-2, but it doesn't seem like the kind of post to call out for some perceived "United DNA" empty platitude.

 

[Carolina Red]

This is an example of a chronic failure to stretch teams effectively, not a reason to avoid trying it - we've been especially poor under Ole and Mourinho at using the full width of the pitch to draw teams out of position and make chances, exacerbated by virtually every attacker (Rashford, Martial, Pogba, Sanchez, now Ronaldo) wanting to play in the same inside-left channel and having no natural right-sided ones (and woefully limited right-backs in Valencia and Wan-Bissaka).

The post you seemingly took exception to was just saying we should be focusing on playing with width and stretching teams because it's effective. I'm not sure I agree with the implication that we can't do that with a 4-2-2-2, but it doesn't seem like the kind of post to call out for some perceived "United DNA" empty platitude.

Well, to be fair, that's why I wanted to know what was meant by it.

 

[Greck]

Since when did martial ever do intricate passes or do well in tight spaces? He's a runner, not at all how you describe.

I'd rather not have to scour the internet for all the goals he has scored like this but quick give and gos are kind of his thing. He's comfortably better than Rashford at link up play. Rashford is a more direct attacker. His awful chemistry with Ronaldo is less about form and more about the player's strength and weaknesses.

 

[Eli Zee]

Bayern are currently fielding a 3241 system, usually using one natural and one inverted winger for each side. They do it.

I dont claim to be a master tactician or anything, but has this been done or is it possible even? Anyone feel free to share your opinion and if you think its dumb as feck please tell me! I always thought it might be cool to do and even a good idea possibly, only when Telles and Dalot are not playing and our fullbacks are somewhat limited offensively.

When we are playing Shaw and AWB and have the ball, we tell the Fullbacks to stay back with one of Lindelof/Maguire/Varane at CB. With the fullbacks back on offense, we would send one CB up to CDM position. This CB moved to CDM could be one of Lindelof, Varane, McTominay or Matic. Ideally, we'd want someone who had an eye for a pass and is quick enough to cover in transition/block passes.

We would then send someone like Fred or Pogba further forward in attack.


It would look like this


Defense (4-2-2-2):
-----Rashford------Ronaldo-------------------
Bruno--------------------------Sancho
---------Pogba/Scott--------Fred---------------
Shaw---Varane---Scott/Lindelof---AWB
--------------------------GK----------------------------


Offense (3-5-2), or a 3-4-3 diamond or anything with 3 at back really:
-----Rashford------Ronaldo----------------
------Pogba---------Bruno-------Sancho-------
------------Fred---------Scott/Lindelof----------
--------Shaw-Varane-WanBissaka--------
--------------------------GK----------------------------


This would probably work best in games that can be controlled by us. like with lots of possession and the other team trying to just clear it / send through balls out. If we are able to pin them back on defense with a high line, having the extra body at cdm and CAM + the quicker fullbacks on defense to cover through balls, we'd be able to pressure them and recycle the ball over and over for new attacks.

 

[Hammondo]

I'd rather not have to scour the internet for all the goals he has scored like this but quick give and gos are kind of his thing. He's comfortably better than Rashford at link up play. Rashford is a more direct attacker. His awful chemistry with Ronaldo is less about form and more about the player's strength and weaknesses.

I agree about Rashford, but martial did no intracate passing in that video at all. He started deep, and did a basic pass. The other players did the intracate passing. Martial did well with his run and finishing, but that's not our problem at the moment.

 

[Greck]

I agree about Rashford, but martial did no intracate passing in that video at all. He started deep, and did a basic pass. The other players did the intracate passing. Martial did well with his run and finishing, but that's not our problem at the moment.

I mean...that's kind of the point of a give and go.

He initiated it, moved, received and controlled then finished it's execution. If that doesn't satisfy you here's another.

 

[Hammondo]

I mean...that's kind of the point of a give and go.

He initiated it, moved, received and controlled then finished it's execution. If that doesn't satisfy you here's another.

In what planet is that intracate??

I agree he starts both moves, but this is not our problem.

 

[Greck]

In what planet is that intracate??

I agree he starts both moves, but this is not our problem.

Because Herrera messed it up but that was also the point. In the original example you said Martial wasn't involved and did no work. I looked for and showed you another move where Martial was more involved in the execution and you still don't like it because someone else who wasn't Martial now messed up the execution. It's all good.

edit Mind you, these are only the ones that get made into highlights because they ended in goals. What more do you really want? We're not making it up, he's decent in facilitating passing moves and is worth a chance under the new system. You don't just bin assets before trying. Most clubs don't even have the funds to replace a rotation player with the skillset

 

[Hammondo]

Because Herrera messed it up but that was also the point. In the original example you said Martial wasn't involved and did no work. I looked for and showed you another move where Martial was more involved in the execution and you still don't like it because someone else who wasn't Martial now messed up the execution. It's all good.

edit Mind you, these are only the ones that get made into highlights because they ended in goals. What more do you really want? We're not making it up, he's decent in facilitating passing moves and is worth a chance under the new system. You don't just bin assets before trying. Most clubs don't even have the funds to replace a rotation player with the skillset

Yes these ended in goals, what about the ones he made bad plays that ruined moves?

This is not even the type of argument I want or am trying to make. He can be good at a certain style, and he has strengths and weaknesses, but he isn't what we need. We attacking players more like sancho.

 

[King Azaz the Unabridged]

I don't see how it's controversial in any way to say Martial is (was, anyway) good at intricate passing and link-up play, especially when it's being said relative to Rashford and Greenwood. Like, if you want to argue he's been playing like hot garbage for so long that he's not worth sticking on the pitch at all, fine, but to say he was never good at it at any point in his United career just tells me you've been watching a different player.

"Runner that doesn't do well in tight spaces" is the exact opposite of Anthony Martial.

 

[JB7]

I mean...that's kind of the point of a give and go.

He initiated it, moved, received and controlled then finished it's execution. If that doesn't satisfy you here's another.

Are we seriously looking back 5 years for examples of Martial being a good player?

 

[Sviken]

We don't have to stick rigidly to ideals of Alex Fergusons teams but on the same token don't have to abandon parts of it that can be integrated into modern tactics either just for the sake of being 'modern'.

I fail to see what would separate the 2007-2009 team from any modern team, City, Liverpool or otherwise. The principles are the same. Guardiola hasn't invented football or anything. The word "pressing" is incredibly trendy right now, but it seems people forget that in those years we pressed like madmen high up the pitch whenever we lost the ball. I don't remember fancy words like that being used back then, but it was simply basic football. OF course, our football had gotten ugly in the last years because our players were just not as good as they once were. All due respect, it's different when you have prime Ronaldo-Rooney-Tevez/Berbatov and on the other hand Welbeck, Chicharito and Valencia as your focal points of attack.

At any rate, trying to recreate what Fergie did is pointless and impossible. Even Guardiola hasn't been able to recapture his time at Barcelona with City's unlimited resources. Good managers all have their own styles of play. The only thing United should worry about is winning and playing attacking football. How this is done doesn't really matter because the principles of attacking football are mostly the same, no matter the side. We've lost track because 3 of our last 4 managers were the very opposite of attacking managers.

 

[Greck]

Are we seriously looking back 5 years for examples of Martial being a good player?

And I say this with all due respect but you might also want to look back more than 5 posts for what was being discussed. We're talking skillsets here. Can his skillset be useful in Rangnick's 4222? It's no secret some skillsets are more emphasised and others deemphasised whenever a new manager comes in.

 

[JB7]

And I say this with all due respect but you might also want to look back more than 5 posts for what was being discussed. We're talking skillsets here. Can his skillset be useful in Rangnick's 4222? It's no secret some skillsets are more emphasised and others deemphasised whenever a new manager comes in.

Yes, I completely understand you were discussing different types of skillsets but I would have thought you would be using examples that were more recent than 3 and 5 years old if he was so good at intricate play in tight spaces.

Could his skillset be useful in the 4-2-2-2? Theoretically, yes. The level of ability he has could be useful in almost any formation, he is a stupendously talented footballer. However the reality is that we very rarely see it.

 

[Beachryan]

Have to feel that such a narrow formation is hugely reliant on full backs to create. I've no idea how our current squad meets that requirement, unless Dalot and Telles both start improving pretty consistently.

I guess the idea is that Fernandes and Sancho are able to move wide too, but they'll need support to avoid getting swarmed.

I'd expect us to invest in some attacking power at FB in January. Not as big a priority as DMF, but we need options later in matches and the idea of AWB being the only sub option is pretty scary.

 

[pocco]

Martial won't be anywhere near the team and rightly so. I'm not just talking about his shocking form for what feels like years now, but because he doesn't even want to be here and therefore Rangnick will see no purpose in wasting any time trying to integrate him over players that will be here.

I can see some posters have a fecking irrational love of Martial still, which is strange. You'd think they'd have took the hammering they had after the 'Martial FC' days and kept things to themselves, but some obviously never learn.

 

[bond19821982]

Have to feel that such a narrow formation is hugely reliant on full backs to create. I've no idea how our current squad meets that requirement, unless Dalot and Telles both start improving pretty consistently.

I guess the idea is that Fernandes and Sancho are able to move wide too, but they'll need support to avoid getting swarmed.

I'd expect us to invest in some attacking power at FB in January. Not as big a priority as DMF, but we need options later in matches and the idea of AWB being the only sub option is pretty scary.

Pretty much all top teams are reliant on FBs though. So that's not exactly a groundbreaking thought or a relevation.