Ralf’s 4-2-2-2

Walters_19_MuFc said:
Problem is, Rangnick is playing Rashford and Ronaldo up top, and neither of these players are link players. It means, every time the ball gets played into them, more often than not, it breaks down. What we need is a Rooney type of player, who is pretty much very good at everything. At Madrid, Benzema played that role when he and Ronaldo were up top.

I'd potentially like to see Greenwood partnered next to one of them, with Ronaldo/Rashford solely focusing on running in behind, because at the moment, they are guilty of breaking up too many of our attacks. Bruno's no better either.

Guess he's still finding that right balance, but he should have realized that Ronaldo and Rashford doesn't make for a good partnership.
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The main reason why the attack broke down is because of how narrow we play up front. It is easier to lose the ball with everyone standing together a couple of yards away from each other and the system seems to rely on quick passing which makes things much harder. There is nothing much they can do once they get the ball, risk it by doing 1 - 2 or just pass it back even if they can hold it.

He needs to widen the play a bit more. I don't think the attack partnership is the main issue here. We will have similar problem with any kind of partnership past and present because there is no space to build up anything around.

We also need to slow down a tad with our build up for us to learn it properly in time.
 
The United said:
The main reason why the attack broke down is because of how narrow we play up front. It is easier to lose the ball with everyone standing together a couple of yards away from each other and the system seems to rely on quick passing which makes things much harder. There is nothing much they can do once they get the ball, risk it by doing 1 - 2 or just pass it back even if they can hold it.

He needs to widen the play a bit more. I don't think the attack partnership is the main issue here. We will have similar problem with any kind of partnership past and present because there is no space to build up anything around.

We also need to slow down a tad with our build up for us to learn it properly in time.
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We have the full backs as wide options. However, it doesn't help when our forwards struggle to control the ball. Just look at the amount of times our attacking players were dispossessed. You just can't sustain attacks if that's going to happen. Even if we play wider, the ball would eventually get played into them. They need to do better!

As for the bold bit, this is the first time we've played two up top in a while.
 
Walters_19_MuFc said:
We have the full backs as wide options. However, it doesn't help when our forwards struggle to control the ball. Just look at the amount of times our attacking players were dispossessed. You just can't sustain attacks if that's going to happen. Even if we play wider, the ball would eventually get played into them. They need to do better!

As for the bold bit, this is the first time we've played two up top in a while.
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Full backs need to play a lot higher. Of course we can't control the ball up front due to the issues that I pointed out earlier. Wider means their full backs will have to defend their space a lot more instead of easily reinforcing the CBs to break up the ball coming into the middle because they have no immediate danger on their flanks as the other team wide men are about 40 yards away still.

Right now our strikers have their markers + DM + FBs right on their backs the whole time and keep getting balls in that situation with nowhere to turn.
 
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The one player who looks comfortable in the system is Fred. Who'd have thought?
 
This formation relies a lot on the quality and engine of the full backs to provide width, overloads and creativity.

Three issues there because 1) it takes away Rashford's best asset, which is the natural width and dribbling quality on the left 2) Telles is so thoroughly average and not an individual threat at all 3) Bruno is in tumescent form and asking him to play even more vertical is basically asking him to be even more hollywood.

We need Shaw back and perhaps a switch to 4-3-3 at times to dictate possession as it seems we are too intent on going forward. We can still press high and be proactive with the ball but we can do it in a more measured way to isolate our front players and create passing angles rather than transitional/counter pressing opportunities.

Having said that, I'm willing to give Ralf a lot more time to persevere and implement what he wants. There's a fine line between trying to establish what you want and what is the best for the team but he deserves patience.
 
The United said:
Full backs need to play a lot higher. Of course we can't control the ball up front due to the issues that I pointed out earlier. Wider means their full backs will have to defend their space a lot more instead of easily reinforcing the CBs to break up the ball coming into the middle because they have no immediate danger on their flanks as the other team wide men are about 40 yards away still.

If we play a lot wider, which means they get more space to manipulate the ball a bit and get to a bit more dangerous area instead of losing the ball frequently because the markers are right on your back the whole time and you keep getting the ball in those situations.
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Because of a narrow system? How does that make sense? These are top level players we're talking about. We weren't good today because we were sloppy in the final third. It's that simple. Getting the basics wrong. That wasn't the case against Palace. Despite getting the same result, our general play was much better than it was today, and as a result, we were able to control the game better.
 
The thing I’m struggling with is the fact that Rangnick is a temporary employment and his methods are so different to anything the players are used to. Are the board going to look for a manager with a very similar style in the summer? Has the feel of another cock up by the board but I hope I’m wrong!
 
Walters_19_MuFc said:
Because of a narrow system? How does that make sense? These are top level players we're talking about. We weren't good today because we were sloppy in the final third. It's that simple. Getting the basics wrong. That wasn't the case against Palace. Despite getting the same result, our general play was much better than it was today, and as a result, we were able to control the game better.
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Narrow makes the other team defend easier and for us harder due to less space/options to build up the attack when we are NOT playing in their half.

We played better against CP because we were in their half most of the time in first half meaning our formation was properly placed there with everyone having better chance to take up proper positions so strikers can recycle the ball a lot better.

But today, we were not playing in their space, not patient enough, but kept passing the ball into strikers quickly who had no option around to build up the attack. We need to find solutions to stretch the game somehow in that kind of games and situations because in those situations our strikers or any others will struggle badly in general.
 
The United said:
RR said we need more intensity from no 10s yet people think Pogba will fit right in. Whatever universe they are in.
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Have you taken time to actually think before suggesting others are 'in a different universe'? I'd suggest you take a look at what Rangnick's or Hassenhutl's teams have had in that role historically. We need players that excel in transition once the ball has been turned over through ball carrying and passing. This is something Pogba has always been very good at even dating back to Mourinho's time, Sancho likewise.

FYI, prior to Rangnick's arrival Pogba had completed more pressures per 90 minute than any of our other starters this season bar Fred, and has been one of our highest runners throughout his whole time here. So even going by your logic he'd be best suited to that role.

I have my doubts over whether our squad is suited to it in general, but I think having Bruno in that role is massively limiting what he's best at and is dragging down the balance of the team. Still, early doors.
 
I'd never even heard of the formation before. He has forgotten more than I know, but it seems a ridiculous formation to me.
I like 343
 
The United said:
Narrow makes the other team defend easier and for us harder due to less space/options to build up the attack when we are NOT playing in their half.

We played better against CP because we were in their half most of the time in first half meaning our formation was properly placed there with everyone having better chance to take up proper positions so strikers can recycle the ball a lot better.

But today, we were not playing in their space, not patient enough, but kept passing the ball into strikers quickly who had no option around to build up the attack. We need to find solutions to stretch the game somehow in that kind of games and situations because in those situations our strikers or any others will struggle badly in general.
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So our narrow formation made Ronaldo and Rashford miscontrol easy passes into them today?
 
Lewnited said:
Have you taken time to actually think before suggesting others are 'in a different universe'? I'd suggest you take a look at what Rangnick's or Hassenhutl's teams have had in that role historically. We need players that excel in transition once the ball has been turned over through ball carrying and passing. This is something Pogba has always been very good at even dating back to Mourinho's time, Sancho likewise.

FYI, prior to Rangnick's arrival Pogba had completed more pressures per 90 minute than any of our other starters this season bar Fred, and has been one of our highest runners throughout his whole time here. So even going by your logic he'd be best suited to that role.

I have my doubts over whether our squad is suited to it in general, but I think having Bruno in that role is massively limiting what he's best at and is dragging down the balance of the team. Still, early doors.
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I'd also add that Pogba was arguably our best player in that LAM role against Leeds, who are renown for their hard work.
 
Sultan said:
The one player who looks comfortable in the system is Fred. Who'd have thought?
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He's arguably the only player we have who suits a pressing system. He was always going to be one of Ralf's favourites.
 
I'm no fan of Pogba but he MIGHT be good in that formation, and he'd CERTAINLY be better than Bruno, who is basically a second striker / advanced #10 in my eyes.
 
Don't think it suits our players, especially in the forward positions. It leaves Bruno and Sancho having to cover too much ground - then the full backs become isolated defensively.

Rather we try 4-3-3, (picking from available players)...

De Gea

Dalot Bailly Maguire Telles/Shaw

VdB Mctominay Fred

Greenwood Ronaldo Sancho​
 
Lewnited said:
Have you taken time to actually think before suggesting others are 'in a different universe'? I'd suggest you take a look at what Rangnick's or Hassenhutl's teams have had in that role historically. We need players that excel in transition once the ball has been turned over through ball carrying and passing. This is something Pogba has always been very good at even dating back to Mourinho's time, Sancho likewise.

FYI, prior to Rangnick's arrival Pogba had completed more pressures per 90 minute than any of our other starters this season bar Fred, and has been one of our highest runners throughout his whole time here. So even going by your logic he'd be best suited to that role.

I have my doubts over whether our squad is suited to it in general, but I think having Bruno in that role is massively limiting what he's best at and is dragging down the balance of the team. Still, early doors.
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Do you realize that your stats came from a very small sample? And even that small period is probably one of his best purple patch if not the best in term of stats. Do you actually believe yourself that Pogba completed pressure stats or whatever that will be sustainable in long term?

Do you even watch how the guy plays in general for us the past 5 seasons? There is no denying with his talents. But passing forward is only one thing that he has while he lacks everything in that 10 position RR wants them to play. Do you see him running up and down trying to track their FB outside or DM inside the whole game?

IF RR demands more intensity from the likes of Bruno, Pogba would have no chance to fit in or do well in it.
 
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Walters_19_MuFc said:
Problem is, Rangnick is playing Rashford and Ronaldo up top, and neither of these players are link players. It means, every time the ball gets played into them, more often than not, it breaks down. What we need is a Rooney type of player, who is pretty much very good at everything. At Madrid, Benzema played that role when he and Ronaldo were up top.

I'd potentially like to see Greenwood partnered next to one of them, with Ronaldo/Rashford solely focusing on running in behind, because at the moment, they are guilty of breaking up too many of our attacks. Bruno's no better either.

Guess he's still finding that right balance, but he should have realized that Ronaldo and Rashford doesn't make for a good partnership.
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Exactly. The link player thing is important. None of our forwards today could hold the ball with their back to goal and bring someone in to play.

This is why Rashford looked better when moving to the leftwing than playing Central as a striker. I think it was the same in the CL game with Ole, Rashford doesn't work as a striker like that.

Martial is a link player and Cavani is capable of it too due to his strength and ability to hold with his back to goal. Ronaldo up as a striker, really needs a link player to be a striker aswell so that Ronaldo can concentrate on making the right runs whilst someone else has the ball.

So what happens if we play Ronaldo & Cavani upfront? We can't exactly play Rashford and Greenwood as our LAM/RAM.
This is why I see this:

Ronaldo - Cavani

Pogba -- Bruno Fernandes

Shaw - Fred - Mctominay - Dalot
​
One of our biggest changes/problems so far however is how Bruno can be so wide on the pitch rather than being that Central player creative of our chances and tempo. So this mean Pogba & Bruno need to be narrow and central - with the width coming from our attacking fullbacks like Shaw and Dalot.

Then what's the alternative to this?

For me it's Rashford and Greenwood playing as very wide LW/LF & RW/RF; so they can decide when to stick out wide playing like inverted wingers and when to play narrow like 2 centre forwards. However none of them are link up players so won't help each other out. This is why Ronaldo isn't exactly going to work between them and just like Liverpool - having a false 9 like Firmino makes things flow for that front line.

This is why Martial worked well for us whilst we were a counter attacking team during Ole's first season - linking up Rashford and Greenwood as two inverted forwards. It's hard to pick who that maybe right now - but Bruno has been talked about playing like a support striker by a lot of people, Sancho has been talked highly about his quick one two's and through balls - whilst even VDB has shown both at Ajax and United that he has the ability to make intelligent runs, passes and score goals.

Rashford--------------Greenwood
Bruno

Or

Rashford--------------Greenwood
VDB

Or

Rashford--------------Greenwood
Sancho
​

Obviously it's a bit early for Rangnick to simply see such things at a new club never mind making such changes so quickly - but it is something I'm hoping to see develop if using a 2 forward line is going to happen.
 
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Walters_19_MuFc said:
Or maybe you are trying to over-complicate things.
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I don't think so. In fact I think stretching the game a bit more would be less complicated for our players.

Now, I am talking about only when we can't dominate the other team to play in their half.
 
Walters_19_MuFc said:
One of the few games he played in that position.
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He had some stinkers in that position as well regardless of the numbers of games he plays in any position. To be fair to him, he is supremely talented that he would do well in any of DM/CM/AM positions. It is just that you don't know if that version of Pogba will show up in most match days.

It is more about his mentality or mindset or whatever than ability. If we are based on ability alone, there is no argument from anyone (almost) that he could play in that position perfectly well.
 
The United said:
I don't think so. In fact I think stretching the game a bit more would be less complicated for our players.

Now, I am talking about only when we can't dominate the other team to play in their half.
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But you're missing the point. The lack of control from our front players was the reason it broke down so much. That had nothing to do with how narrow or wide the formation was. They were just poor. Neither Rashford or Ronaldo can hold up the ball - at least not today anyway. So much for sleeping, eh?
 
Walters_19_MuFc said:
But you're missing the point. The lack of control from our front players was the reason it broke down so much. That had nothing to do with how narrow or wide the formation was. They were just poor. Neither Rashford or Ronaldo can hold up the ball - at least not today anyway. So much for sleeping, eh?
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So do you think that they could do it against CP because you said we played better there and had more control?
 
The United said:
He had some stinkers in that position as well regardless of the numbers of games he plays in any position. To be fair to him, he is supremely talented that he would do well in any of DM/CM/AM positions. It is just that you don't know if that version of Pogba will show up in most match days.

It is more about his mentality or mindset or whatever than ability. If we are based on ability alone, there is no argument from anyone (almost) that he could play in that position perfectly well.
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Were we not talking about his work-rate, though, in which it was said he'd have no chance under RR's system? I then pointed out that he did it against one of, if not, the hardest working team in the league, in Leeds.

Yes, regards performances, he is inconsistent but then so are most of our players. Bruno's been pretty poor for most of the season, as has Maguire, Shaw, AWB, etc. Hopefully, RR can improve that.
 
Bebestation said:
Exactly. The link player thing is important. None of our forwards today could hold the ball with their back to goal and bring someone in to play.

This is why Rashford looked better when moving to the leftwing than playing Central as a striker. I think it was the same in the CL game with Ole, Rashford doesn't work as a striker like that.

Martial is a link player and Cavani is capable of it too due to his strength and ability to hold with his back to goal. Ronaldo up as a striker, really needs a link player to be a striker aswell so that Ronaldo can concentrate on making the right runs whilst someone else has the ball.

So what happens if we play Ronaldo & Cavani upfront? We can't exactly play Rashford and Greenwood as our LAM/RAM.
This is why I see this:

Ronaldo - Cavani

Pogba -- Bruno Fernandes

Shaw - Fred - Mctominay - Dalot
​
One of our biggest changes/problems so far however is how Bruno can be so wide on the pitch rather than being that Central player creative of our chances and tempo. So this mean Pogba & Bruno need to be narrow and central - with the width coming from our attacking fullbacks like Shaw and Dalot.

Then what's the alternative to this?

For me it's Rashford and Greenwood playing as very wide LW/LF & RW/RF; so they can decide when to stick out wide playing like inverted wingers and when to play narrow like 2 centre forwards. However none of them are link up players so won't help each other out. This is why Ronaldo isn't exactly going to work between them and just like Liverpool - having a false 9 like Firmino makes things flow for that front line.

This is why Martial worked well for us whilst we were a counter attacking team during Ole's first season - linking up Rashford and Greenwood as two inverted forwards. It's hard to pick who that maybe right now - but Bruno has been talked about playing like a support striker by a lot of people, Sancho has been talked highly about his quick one two's and through balls - whilst even VDB has shown both at Ajax and United that he has the ability to make intelligent runs, passes and score goals.

Rashford--------------Greenwood
Bruno

Or

Rashford--------------Greenwood
VDB

Or

Rashford--------------Greenwood
Sancho
​

Obviously it's a bit early for Rangnick to simply see such things at a new club never mind making such changes so quickly - but it is something I'm hoping to see develop if using a 2 forward line is going to happen.
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Agreed. Great post!
 
Walters_19_MuFc said:
They were certainly much better than they were today. Do you disagree?
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I do and I said it was because the system was built for playing in their half with proper support and it did not work today because we did not play it that way.

My question to you was that there were 2 games which they did good and bad in each, therefore, we need to find a different type of player or partnership?

I was not missing the point there. I just saw it from a different point of view.

You think it is the players.

I think it is the system that needs to be adapted slightly different to different games until the whole team get to the speed especially when you won't find a Benzema or Rooney out of this squad. Cavani is forever injured and Greenwood does not suit that ball holding forward role either.
 
The strength of the 4222 is in the ability to high press the opposition with an ease to close it when a full back has the ball. We actually switched to a 4231 later im the game with Greenwood and Rashford manning the flanks and Bruno playing behind Ronaldo. We also didn't look any better then either.

I'll wait until January before passing any real judgements on whether the formation is causing issues or if its just the general set up / players.
 
My problem with this formation is it's a very niche system that very few managers actually use. So why spend the next months having the players adapt to a system that the next manager will likely abandon to revert to 4231/433 anyway.
 
I like the front 4 of the 4222. It gives them a huge number of options. If they are able to look up quickly and see what's in front of them and react accordingly then we should be seeing more goals
 
Sultan said:
We'll be put to the sword against any decent team.
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I was thankful we were playing Norwich and not Liverpool yesterday, but I think that had to do with nobody playing better than average rather then the system we played.
 
paulscholes18 said:
I was thankful we were playing Norwich and not Liverpool yesterday, but I think that had to do with nobody playing better than average rather then the system we played.
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The system needs correct players not necessarily great players for it to be successful. We have a great squad of players and are just trying to impose a new system on these players who have never played the system.
 
Sultan said:
The system needs correct players not necessarily great players for it to be successful. We have a great squad of players and are just trying to impose a new system on these players who have never played the system.
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But remember we looked awful in the previous system all season.
 
Just seen someone make a good point on Twitter which i thought of yesterday as well - people are actually suggesting shape changes and annoyance with our style of play, two games into a new 4-2-2-2 system and a new manager. Let him actually bed the system in first, and remember that we have actually won his first two meaningful games.

The only thing I’d suggest is to either drop Rashford or move him out to the left of the 4-2-2-2. He’s not a striker, so hopefully Ralf sees this and makes Mason an integral part of his system.
 
Daengophile said:
I like the front 4 of the 4222. It gives them a huge number of options. If they are able to look up quickly and see what's in front of them and react accordingly then we should be seeing more goals
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Not so sure, Rashford and Bruno do not look even slightly comfortable in this formation.

The only reason people like this formation is the same reason most football fans like things nowadays - it’s new.

New managers, new players, new tactics, new formations, new kits, new sponsors, etc.

One day the formation won’t be new and people will hate it.

Hopefully Ralf will be flexible with our set up as this isn’t going to get the best out of many of our attacking players.
 
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