Ralf’s 4-2-2-2

pocco said:
Martial won't be anywhere near the team and rightly so. I'm not just talking about his shocking form for what feels like years now, but because he doesn't even want to be here and therefore Rangnick will see no purpose in wasting any time trying to integrate him over players that will be here.

I can see some posters have a fecking irrational love of Martial still, which is strange. You'd think they'd have took the hammering they had after the 'Martial FC' days and kept things to themselves, but some obviously never learn.
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Haven't been very active on here but the love/hate posting agendas around certain players is and has always been idiotic and I mean both sides. They are assets to be looked at from a POV of utility. People don't care about the player they care about the team. I'd personally play 11 mercenaries if we were guaranteed the CL.

The manager will go through and discard whomever he has no use for. Hypothetically if Rangnick were to start Pogba tomorrow I'd certainly hope he isn't trashed just because people don't like him. In the last game there were people trashing him for not subbing Rashford when Rangnick is just trying to fit different players into different roles in different systems to see reach the realization of who his final players will be. The same process will repeat with several squad players. Same lack of foresight we saw with trying to get Fred kicked off the team. These things will be decided on the pitch over the coming months.

Personally speaking I honestly don't care much for what happened under Ole's dysfunctional setup, it's a new chance at a fresh slate for everyone. Whomever can't shine in Rangnick or the permanent manager's new system will get kicked out and that includes even our best performers under Ole, yes even Bruno. No one is an automatic starter. This will be decided by their performance moving forward. If he equally decides a player isn't worth experimenting I'll equally back that.
 
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Martial doesn't suit this formation at all. Or at least he doesn't suit Ralf's ideas on football. Where's he going to play?

He suits the Rashford role in that he holds the ball much better, has a better touch, can play a bit better back to goal. But the other side of that coin is that the foil to Ronaldo is clearly partly designed to cover for his lack of work rate and Martial is an abysmal choice for that.

He's not going to play in the attacking midfield areas because RR has already said he sees that as the most physically demanding role, which means he has high expectations. Physically demanding and Martial do not belong in the same sentence.

I don't think he's of much interest anymore. Hopefully he proves that to be wrong but the ship really did set sail a while ago.
 
Scott's lack of courage in a vertical pass and Fred's laughable inability to pin a cross-field ball out to full backs is the death of this formation.

You need proper passing holding midfielders for this to be worth it.
 
Greck said:
Haven't been very active on here but the love/hate posting agendas around certain players is and has always been idiotic and I mean both sides. They are assets to be looked at from a POV of utility. People don't care about the player they care about the team. I'd personally play 11 mercenaries if we were guaranteed the CL.

The manager will go through and discard whomever he has no use for. Hypothetically if Rangnick were to start Pogba tomorrow I'd certainly hope he isn't trashed just because people don't like him. In the last game there were people trashing him for not subbing Rashford when Rangnick is just trying to fit different players into different roles in different systems to see reach the realization of who his final players will be. The same process will repeat with several squad players. Same lack of foresight we saw with trying to get Fred kicked off the team. These things will be decided on the pitch over the coming months.

Personally speaking I honestly don't care much for what happened under Ole's dysfunctional setup, it's a new chance at a fresh slate for everyone. Whomever can't shine in Rangnick or the permanent manager's new system will get kicked out and that includes even our best performers under Ole, yes even Bruno. No one is an automatic starter. This will be decided by their performance moving forward. If he equally decides a player isn't worth experimenting I'll equally back that.
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It's the fact that he wants to leave though. Otherwise I would agree that he deserves a chance, but for me would still be down the list of players that should get a chance immediately. On the ball he may suit what Rangnick wants, but I think the underlying principle of his vision is a team that works hard, fights for everything and generally puts in a big shift. All of which is not something I would associate with Martial anyway.
 
Bestietom said:
Well this is if and when it is played RIGHT. atm we are still trying to move away from the bad habits picked up since Fergie left. (Passing sideways and backwards.) I just think that a 3-5-2 or a 3-4-1-2 may suit us better at this particular time. We need points on the board.
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Weird that we got points on the board in both matches. If we're slowly learning a new system while getting points on the board then what's the issue?
 
Sviken said:
I fail to see what would separate the 2007-2009 team from any modern team, City, Liverpool or otherwise. The principles are the same. Guardiola hasn't invented football or anything. The word "pressing" is incredibly trendy right now, but it seems people forget that in those years we pressed like madmen high up the pitch whenever we lost the ball. I don't remember fancy words like that being used back then, but it was simply basic football. OF course, our football had gotten ugly in the last years because our players were just not as good as they once were. All due respect, it's different when you have prime Ronaldo-Rooney-Tevez/Berbatov and on the other hand Welbeck, Chicharito and Valencia as your focal points of attack.
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Definitely mate it wasn't exactly the same as top teams today but it's wasn't that different either, I reckon that team would do just as well today with minimal changes to their tactics.

Some people just like to act like football pre Pep was archaic kick and rush football.

Sviken said:
At any rate, trying to recreate what Fergie did is pointless and impossible. Even Guardiola hasn't been able to recapture his time at Barcelona with City's unlimited resources. Good managers all have their own styles of play. The only thing United should worry about is winning and playing attacking football. How this is done doesn't really matter because the principles of attacking football are mostly the same, no matter the side. We've lost track because 3 of our last 4 managers were the very opposite of attacking managers.
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Yep and also managers with wildly different philosophies/formations too. Which is what's worrying me with Ralf's 4222, I honestly believe unless he knows for sure the next manager will be employing it on a regular basis then he really shouldn't be using it either. I don't see the logic in taking a team used to playing 4231/433 and forcing them to adapt to a new system if the next manager is just going to go back to 433.
 
RUCK4444 said:
He should be angry because that performance was dreadful, I hope he lights a fire under these players.
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Good thing he comes across as a no nonsense type of manager in how he handled Pogba and Martial situation. The two players who routinely stink up this United side.
I still can't get out of my head that goal we conceded against Sheffield with Martial strolling back to attempt to defend our goal.
I would be as happy if these two left in January as the day the club sacked Mourinho.
 
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macheda14 said:
Weird that we got points on the board in both matches. If we're slowly learning a new system while getting points on the board then what's the issue?
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Well if we play like we did against Norwich we won't get many points off other teams.
 
Professional Footballers earning hundreds of thousands of pounds each month should run their socks off for the club and it's fans.

This idea that they can't play certain formations defies belief.
 
WR10 said:
Scott's lack of courage in a vertical pass and Fred's laughable inability to pin a cross-field ball out to full backs is the death of this formation.

You need proper passing holding midfielders for this to be worth it.
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I don't disagree improvement would be welcome in those areas, but the central midfield was generally considered to be the best-functioning part of the team in the last two PL games though.
 
Abraxas said:
Martial doesn't suit this formation at all. Or at least he doesn't suit Ralf's ideas on football. Where's he going to play?

He suits the Rashford role in that he holds the ball much better, has a better touch, can play a bit better back to goal. But the other side of that coin is that the foil to Ronaldo is clearly partly designed to cover for his lack of work rate and Martial is an abysmal choice for that.

He's not going to play in the attacking midfield areas because RR has already said he sees that as the most physically demanding role, which means he has high expectations. Physically demanding and Martial do not belong in the same sentence.

I don't think he's of much interest anymore. Hopefully he proves that to be wrong but the ship really did set sail a while ago.
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Irrespective of that, his performance this season and last combined with his agent going public with a desire to leave without even taking that up with the club puts the final nail in the coffin anyway.
 
Let's be honest, 4222 or 433, Bruno and Rashford will still perform like shit. They are what they are.
 
Mcking said:
Let's be honest, 4222 or 433, Bruno and Rashford will still perform like shit. They are what they are.
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Quite funny cause their goals are the reason we are in the CL this season.
 
pocco said:
It's the fact that he wants to leave though. Otherwise I would agree that he deserves a chance, but for me would still be down the list of players that should get a chance immediately. On the ball he may suit what Rangnick wants, but I think the underlying principle of his vision is a team that works hard, fights for everything and generally puts in a big shift. All of which is not something I would associate with Martial anyway.
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He has had so many chances.
 
Mcking said:
Let's be honest, 4222 or 433, Bruno and Rashford will still perform like shit. They are what they are.
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Rashford came back from surgery right in our horror run of games after no pre-season and Bruno is just in a bad spell. Give both of them a bit of time and time for Ralf to get something out of them.
 
Mcking said:
Let's be honest, 4222 or 433, Bruno and Rashford will still perform like shit. They are what they are.
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Let's be honest, 30 goal seasons or any number of player of the month awards, posters will still have the attention span of a gnat and the good judgment of a sack of cement. They are what they are.
 
Ixion said:
Rashford came back from surgery right in our horror run of games after no pre-season and Bruno is just in a bad spell. Give both of them a bit of time and time for Ralf to get something out of them.
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justsomebloke said:
Let's be honest, 30 goal seasons or any number of player of the month awards, posters will still have the attention span of a gnat and the good judgment of a sack of cement. They are what they are.
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Has nothing to do with the formation not suiting them then. We played 4231, and they were shit too.
 
i want to see Cavani and Ronaldo up front in this system with Sancho and Donny playing right behind them....Bruno and Rashford need a break and a bit of a wake up call

Let Mason rotate himself in with those front four
 
Mcking said:
Has nothing to do with the formation not suiting them then. We played 4231, and they were shit too.
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Anyone with an ounce of sense and a memory that runs back more than 3 weeks understands they are the exact opposite of shit.
 
justsomebloke said:
Anyone with an ounce of sense and a memory that runs back more than 3 weeks understands they are the exact opposite of shit.
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You wonder if football fans are pretty thick nowadays. I wonder all these people judge themselves over their real life job based on those standards too. Probably not due to my first sentence anyway.
 
I have a question for the discussion.

would Ralfs 4222 work with City current players? or Liverpool's? Chelsea's?

or maybe a better question is can Ralf make his 4222 work with the current players of the top 3?
 
Will the next manager adopt this 4222? Or will it be ditched for a new formation
Why not a 433? So that he can lay the foundation for ten hag or Pochettino to work on ?
And besides , 4222 requires two technically gifted central midfielders for it to work , the deficiency in our midfield was exposed during the game against Norwich, its not enough for mcfred to know how to press, but do they have the ability to dictate the tempo of the game from the middle of the park,
Do they have the ability to play a deep lying vertical through pass that will open up a low block defence?
Do they have the skill to initiate attack from deep in midfield?
Do they have the ability to stay calm and pass well if we meet a high pitch pressure team?
We all know the answers.
This 4222 have a lot of ???lets see how it goes till the end of the season
 
Udmaster said:
Will the next manager adopt this 4222? Or will it be ditched for a new formation
Why not a 433? So that he can lay the foundation for ten hag or Pochettino to work on ?
And besides , 4222 requires two technically gifted central midfielders for it to work , the deficiency in our midfield was exposed during the game against Norwich, its not enough for mcfred to know how to press, but do they have the ability to dictate the tempo of the game from the middle of the park,
Do they have the ability to play a deep lying vertical through pass that will open up a low block defence?
Do they have the skill to initiate attack from deep in midfield?
Do they have the ability to stay calm and pass well if we meet a high pitch pressure team?
We all know the answers.
This 4222 have a lot of ???lets see how it goes till the end of the season
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Our problem is not that we're wedded to a particular formation, but that we havent worked on a lot of the basics over the last few years. What we need to learn is pressing, pre-planned movements on the field, effective possession from deep, game management etc, which are all kind of independent of formations. Well organised teams can play in multiple formations, because the building blocks are really well established. So while it might be slighly better to truly gear up with a view to the new manager coming in, I think what RR is doing is still likely to bridge the gap a considerable amount.

As for McFred, they're a limited pair whatever formation we play. Whether we play 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3 or something truly outlandish, they will be a weak spot for us.
 
Udmaster said:
Will the next manager adopt this 4222? Or will it be ditched for a new formation
Why not a 433? So that he can lay the foundation for ten hag or Pochettino to work on ?
And besides , 4222 requires two technically gifted central midfielders for it to work , the deficiency in our midfield was exposed during the game against Norwich, its not enough for mcfred to know how to press, but do they have the ability to dictate the tempo of the game from the middle of the park,
Do they have the ability to play a deep lying vertical through pass that will open up a low block defence?
Do they have the skill to initiate attack from deep in midfield?
Do they have the ability to stay calm and pass well if we meet a high pitch pressure team?
We all know the answers.
This 4222 have a lot of ???lets see how it goes till the end of the season
Click to expand...
The formation shouldn't define how the team plays really. You should be able to perform the same core principles every week, regardless of formation. The static formation has pretty much never been the actual issue, not with Ole, not now. Its the lack of coaching for any of the fundamentals of modern football.
 
Some of the top teams who play the most attractive attacking football play with a 4-3-3 formation... a midfield comprising of a Number 6 and 2 Number 8's is for me the best option.. :)
 
The 4-2-2-2 protects our defence which has a badly out of form Shaw, Maguire and AWB. Their poor form is one major reason as to where we are in the table today.

The other alternative with the defence in this form is what Carrick played, a 4-5-1 with Matic, Fred & VDB/McT (can’t recall now) for one game.
 
We should play the 4-2-2-2 when out of position, but switch back to 4-2-3-1 when we have the ball.

Rashford up front doesn't work, he's much better where he has space to run into and can insolate his fullback 1v1.

Bruno is better in the middle of the pitch where he can use his quick brain and eye for a pass. Isolating him out wide where his only trick is cutting back and crossing is a big waste.
 
Have we been able to train at least? I'm worried about our last performance we look totally disjointed and shit, with Arsenal's current form and what we saw yesterday from Spurs we can drop points.

We really were left in a though situation so we need to pick up the pace or we'll end outside top 4.
 
If there is anything positive about not playing until next week is that he has more time to train and get to know our strength and weaknesses. Decide who goes in Jan or next summer and who stays as well as putting in a solid plan on who to buy in Jan of at all possible.

there’s upside to all of this
 
OmarUnited4ever said:
I have a question for the discussion.

would Ralfs 4222 work with City current players? or Liverpool's? Chelsea's?

or maybe a better question is can Ralf make his 4222 work with the current players of the top 3?
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Why not?

It's just a formation, it's the quality of the players and how well drilled they are that matters. Those teams have that.

It has some weaknesses but many formations do, if there was a perfect formation everybody would be playing the exact same thing.
 
Abraxas said:
Why not?

It's just a formation, it's the quality of the players and how well drilled they are that matters. Those teams have that.

It has some weaknesses but many formations do, if there was a perfect formation everybody would be playing the exact same thing.
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I agree completely. we have 2 choices
Find a system to suit the players we have, with a few additions
or
Pick a system, lose the players who don't fit and replace them with those who fit. This does not necessarily buying a lot, but could also give some youngsters (Laird, Hanibal, Elenega etc) a chance to replace a few older players
 
Abraxas said:
Why not?

It's just a formation, it's the quality of the players and how well drilled they are that matters. Those teams have that.

It has some weaknesses but many formations do, if there was a perfect formation everybody would be playing the exact same thing.
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I agree with you, its about the players' quality and how well they are coached into the formation.

So, If we say, with some certainty, that United's current squad weren't drilled enough during Ole's reign, or as we say in the Caf "Poorly Coached", do we have enough overall quality that allows Ralf to utilize his preferred 4222 formation?

my answer is we have some quality within the squad but I am uncertain if its enough to make Ralf's 4222 work, but my uncertainty is due to the simple fact that Ralf only managed 3 games so far and probably not enough time to coach the team. I would love to know what are your thoughts on that.

dutchred said:
I agree completely. we have 2 choices
Find a system to suit the players we have, with a few additions
or
Pick a system, lose the players who don't fit and replace them with those who fit. This does not necessarily buying a lot, but could also give some youngsters (Laird, Hanibal, Elenega etc) a chance to replace a few older players
Click to expand...

I think Ralf wants to go with the 4222, it's what he prefers based on his history, but I did read that he isn't rigid and is flexible with formations, what matters to him the most is his philosophy of pressing/counter-pressing, vertical play and quick transitions
 
OmarUnited4ever said:
I agree with you, its about the players' quality and how well they are coached into the formation.

So, If we say, with some certainty, that United's current squad weren't drilled enough during Ole's reign, or as we say in the Caf "Poorly Coached", do we have enough overall quality that allows Ralf to utilize his preferred 4222 formation?

my answer is we have some quality within the squad but I am uncertain if its enough to make Ralf's 4222 work, but my uncertainty is due to the simple fact that Ralf only managed 3 games so far and probably not enough time to coach the team. I would love to know what are your thoughts on that.



I think Ralf wants to go with the 4222, it's what he prefers based on his history, but I did read that he isn't rigid and is flexible with formations, what matters to him the most is his philosophy of pressing/counter-pressing, vertical play and quick transitions
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so we need the players that can do this and he will fit them into a system, depending on the circumstances, 4222 or 433 or 4231, but with the same philosophy.
What I really hope is that he brings the same philosophy too all teams 18 years and above. What is great about Ajax is that all teams play the same system. It is so impressive that they pull a kid out of the reserves and he fits instantly into the first team.
 
Forget the Formation! It is just starting point. Ralf introduced the 4222 in Salzburg and it could be used in so many different ways. Salzburg defended with a 4312, attacked with something like 2422 or 2413.
The most important thing is, the team has to be a well drilled unit.
At the moment every player has to learn how,where and when to move. They will learn to read the game, to see the sisignals, etc. This process will take some time.
 
Stability is the ball no press/defend high, we have not great defenders individually

This is the reason of United failure, the players even with some individual ability like Pogba and Bruno, don’t know what to do with the ball + players like mcfred, biassaka and the disaster is served on a plate

The ball possession and what to do with the ball is the main problem. You can buy others players but won’t change nothing if doesn’t change the ideas

 
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