Raheem Sterling

[SquishyMcSquish]

Just because he doesn't have the best spelling and grammar doesn't mean he's stupid, or 'an idiot' as the poster described him. And in my opinion Raheem's comparison between two news articles does demonstrate a certain level of intelligence. It's certainly got people talking and he presented his argument well.

I don't know if he's an idiot or not, I really don't know him well enough for that. I haven't seen anything from him (from interviews etc) that would suggest he's any more intelligent than your average premier league footballer.

I don't think what he suggested was exactly groundbreaking or a great show of intellectualism. He compared two articles and said 'look, this man is treated differently from the other'.

 

[RoadTrip]

I don't know if he's an idiot or not, I really don't know him well enough for that. I haven't seen anything from him (from interviews etc) that would suggest he's any more intelligent than your average premier league footballer.

I don't think what he suggested was exactly groundbreaking or a great show of intellectualism. He compared two articles and said 'look, this man is treated differently from the other'.

To break it down into simple steps.

How often do you hear people complain about inequality? Pretty regularly. And usually, let’s be honest here, it’s often brushed aside or forgotten or, disappointingly, often ignored.

What was the purpose of Sterling’s post? Perhaps to defend himself and deflect some of the negativity coming at him? Yeah I’d say so. But also, his aim is to shed light on and bring to the forefront, inequality.

It might have been a simple comparison of two articles but unlike other people, he got things noticed and discussed. Seems intelligent to me.

Using your logic, Colin Kaepernick - all he did was take a knee, doesn’t seem very intelligent or unique.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

In response to the first paragraph, yes. Every single professional footballer (up to a level) has exceptional intelligence. You simply have a stereotyped view of what intelligence is, which specific skills and knowledge fall into the definition of intelligence, and what it looks like.

In response to the second paragraph, I’m not going to trawl through and find examples. I don’t have the time. But, that was my observation of you and your posts. I don’t need to justify it. It’s an opinion, not a fact. So if you disagree (and I suspect you do, and do feel free too), then that’s all good.

We simply disagree on that point. It's not because I have a 'stereotyped view of intelligence' (I certainly don't view intelligence as purely based on academic knowledge) but because I think that you don't require exceptional intelligence to be great at a sport. There are elements of intelligence at play, particularly in tactical understanding, but I think it's a leap to declare all premier league footballers intellectually exceptional. For example if you're brought up from a very young age to play the game day in day out, you don't necessarily need to learn the less instinctive elements of the sport very quickly, other factors like athleticism (which Sterling has plenty of) are going to be more important. Then as you train every day for years, those are going to become second nature. I don't know if Sterling took to the tactical side of the game very quickly, I wasn't on the training ground with him as a young player so I can't pass comment. His movement is world class though, which would be the best example of some form of intelligence.



Fair enough, you're certainly entitled to an opinion. It was less me trying to get you to 'justify it', and more me being genuinely curious what you felt qualified as illogical.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

To break it down into simple steps.

How often do you hear people complain about inequality? Pretty regularly. And usually, let’s be honest here, it’s often brushed aside or forgotten or, disappointingly, often ignored.

What was the purpose of Sterling’s post? Perhaps to defend himself and deflect some of the negativity coming at him? Yeah I’d say so. But also, his aim is to shed light on and bring to the forefront, inequality.

It might have been a simple comparison of two articles but unlike other people, he got things noticed and discussed. Seems intelligent to me.

Using your logic, Colin Kaepernick - all he did was take a knee, doesn’t seem very intelligent or unique.

I'd argue Colin Kaepernick and Sterling's actions would be described as brave more than intelligent, no? Plenty of very intelligent people who understand the topic well would not speak out purely due to fear of a reaction from the public.

 

[RoadTrip]

We simply disagree on that point. It's not because I have a 'stereotyped view of intelligence' (I certainly don't view intelligence as purely based on academic knowledge) but because I think that you don't require exceptional intelligence to be great at a sport. There are elements of intelligence at play, particularly in tactical understanding, but I think it's a leap to declare all premier league footballers intellectually exceptional. For example if you're brought up from a very young age to play the game day in day out, you don't necessarily need to learn the less instinctive elements of the sport very quickly, other factors like athleticism (which Sterling has plenty of) are going to be more important. Then as you train every day for years, those are going to become second nature.

Fair enough, you're certainly entitled to an opinion. It was less me trying to get you to 'justify it', and more me being genuinely curious what you felt qualified as illogical.

It’s ok to agree to disagree . But, genuinely, I really do believe your view here is wrong. We each have an idea of what defines intelligence in our heads and let’s face it, that’s something along the lines of someone who can understand and process complex information, someone who is logical and cut through information to find what’s relevant quickly, someone who has a wide array of knowledge, etc etc. It’s fair to say, playing football isn’t seen as something that requires intelligence. But working as an actuary or a doctor, would be more conceptually in line with our definition of intelligence.

My challenge is that being a footballer at the top level is not something that would ordinarily be categorised as something that requires intelligence, but in my view it is. I absolutely agree that being physically gifted is a large part. But if that was the case, any sportsmen or sportswomen could cross sports easily. I think there is more too it. And tactics aren’t just the only element which requires intelligence. In order to determine how much energy to put through your leg to weigh a pass perfectly - that to me is intelligence. To determine where precisely a ball will land so you can meet it in the right place - that to me is intelligence. To be aware of where to move and run to be in the best place to score - that’s intelligence to me too. They say that catching a ball is one of the most strenuous exercises for our brain. How can we not say that such skills are a factor in intelligence then?

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

It’s ok to agree to disagree . But, genuinely, I really do believe your view here is wrong. We each have an idea of what defines intelligence in our heads and let’s face it, that’s something along the lines of someone who can understand and process complex information, someone who is logical and cut through information to find what’s relevant quickly, someone who has a wide array of knowledge, etc etc. It’s fair to say, playing football isn’t seen as something that requires intelligence. But working as an actuary or a doctor, would be more conceptually in line with our definition of intelligence.

My challenge is that being a footballer at the top level is not something that would ordinarily be categorised as something that requires intelligence, but in my view it is. I absolutely agree that being physically gifted is a large part. But if that was the case, any sportsmen or sportswomen could cross sports easily. I think there is more too it. And tactics aren’t just the only element which requires intelligence. In order to determine how much energy to put through your leg to weigh a pass perfectly - that to me is intelligence. To determine where precisely a ball will land so you can meet it in the right place - that to me is intelligence. To be aware of where to move and run to be in the best place to score - that’s intelligence to me too. They say that catching a ball is one of the most strenuous exercises for our brain. How can we not say that such skills are a factor in intelligence then?

They can't cross sports because they've trained in their discipline for their entire lives. That doesn't necessarily mean that the other discipline requires exceptional intelligence, but when one player has been brought up playing a sport for years then clearly they will feel more comfortable than somebody who hasn't. I think that is mixing up training somebody till it becomes instinctive for them (Which can be done with most people) and genuine intelligence, which would be learning it very quickly. Most footballers will be very reliant on having been drilled day in day out from a young age. Some examples of footballers who have exceptional tactical understanding and reading of the game (Some central defenders or central midfielders for example) exist and I think this sort of player would be your best bet for identifying exceptionally intelligent athletes. The examples you use I think is what you learn when you are playing a sport every day since childhood, it becomes second nature to them. Are footballers really thinking when they decide how much energy they need to use when passing? It becomes instinctive through training.

There's also loads of examples of footballers who have done monumentally stupid things throughout their career, and not once or twice but just over and over and again seemingly without learning. It's hard for me to believe that those people are also exceptionally intelligent.

 

[Dante]

Amir Khan went through the same thing. Lewis Hamilton, too, to a degree.

BAME superstars get extra scrutiny, extra negative coverage and question marks about how they conduct themselves.

"They can't really be a proper Brit, can they? There's something 'off' about them" is the subtext to a lot of it. The worst thing Amir Khan ever did was wear a British flag. That pissed off a lot of people. And Hamilton should have never got earrings. That's what rappers do.

 

[M18CTID]

I must confess that I've not read every post on this thread but I'm puzzled why some people are implying that some posters are claiming that every single negative article about Sterling has been written with a racist slant. I don't see anyone claiming that every article bar none has had racist undertones, only that some of them have. And when you research it, it's actually plain to see. How anyone can't see the racism in an article - and a factually incorrect one at that - stating that Sterling has fathered several kids by multiple women, is beyond my comprehension. Or how about The Scum newspaper attaching a photo of Sterling to a generic article about footballers socialising with drug dealers? Not to mention the Daily Nazi, oops sorry the Daily Mail, referring to Sterling as being Jamaican-born in another piece. Seriously, why the need to include that if one isn't being racist in any way whatsoever? While I think much of the negativity was ramped up because he dared leave Liverpool, for anyone to suggest that not a single article about Sterling down the years has had racist connotations attached to it is ridiculously naive.

All this has me wondering how many articles about other footballers have had racist undertones to them. I've brought this up on the Sterling thread in the past, but I'm minded of the story about Memphis Depay turning up for United training in a convertible Rolls Royce. I found all the faux outrage and wailing and gnashing of teeth - some of it probably borne out of sheer jealousy - surrounding this incident utterly hilarious, and despite being a City fan all I could think of at the time was that I hope next time he turns up in a car worth twice as much. Now it never occurred to me at the time that there might possibly be a racist angle to this story, but these past couple of days I've been wondering if it was a white English footballer rolling (pardon the pun) up for training in a convertible Roller would the story have even been published?

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

I must confess that I've not read every post on this thread but I'm puzzled why some people are implying that some posters are claiming that every single negative article about Sterling has been written with a racist slant. I don't see anyone claiming that every article bar none has had racist undertones, only that some of them have. And when you research it, it's actually plain to see. How anyone can't see the racism in an article - and a factually incorrect one at that - stating that Sterling has fathered several kids by multiple women, is beyond my comprehension. Or how about The Scum newspaper attaching a photo of Sterling to a generic article about footballers socialising with drug dealers? Not to mention the Daily Nazi, oops sorry the Daily Mail, referring to Sterling as being Jamaican-born in another piece. Seriously, why the need to include that if one isn't being racist in any way whatsoever? While I think much of the negativity was ramped up because he dared leave Liverpool, for anyone to suggest that not a single article about Sterling down the years has had racist connotations attached to it is ridiculously naive.

All this has me wondering how many articles about other footballers have had racist undertones to them. I've brought this up on the Sterling thread in the past, but I'm minded of the story about Memphis Depay turning up for United training in a convertible Rolls Royce. I found all the faux outrage and wailing and gnashing of teeth - some of it probably borne out of sheer jealousy - surrounding this incident utterly hilarious, and despite being a City fan all I could think of at the time was that I hope next time he turns up in a car worth twice as much. Now it never occurred to me at the time that there might possibly be a racist angle to this story, but these past couple of days I've been wondering if it was a white English footballer rolling (pardon the pun) up for training in a convertible Roller would the story have even been published?

Yes. If a white English footballer bought for big money who was playing poorly turned up in a rolls royce to training, absolutely the tabloid press would have jumped on it.

Depay got targeted because he was in shit form yet appeared cocky in the media, dressing flamboyantly and driving fancy cars etc. That put a target on his back regardless of race. Look at the treatment of Stephen Ireland as an example of a white player who got shit stories written about him because of the way he presented himself. It's not right, footballers shouldn't be judged on their personal choices which are irrelevant to their performances, but this is what the tabloid press will always do regardless of race.

They've done entire stories based on which car all the England stars drive. Delph is described as 'humble' because of it. They're just pointless, shit articles. Ruud Gullit was the one who said that Depay needed to justify his 'flashy' off the field lifestyle with performances on the pitch, is he racist as well? It's just old fashioned pundits/journalists, they feel like they have a right to judge other people's expression and purchases.

 

[M18CTID]

Yes. If a white English footballer bought for big money who was playing poorly turned up in a rolls royce to training, absolutely the tabloid press would have jumped on it.

Depay got targeted because he was in shit form yet appeared cocky in the media, dressing flamboyantly and driving fancy cars etc. That put a target on his back regardless of race. Look at the treatment of Stephen Ireland as an example of a white player who got shit stories written about him because of the way he presented himself. It's not right, footballers shouldn't be judged on their personal choices which are irrelevant to their performances, but this is what the tabloid press will always do regardless of race.

They've done entire stories based on which car all the England stars drive. Delph is described as 'humble' because of it. They're just pointless, shit articles. Ruud Gullit was the one who said that Depay needed to justify his 'flashy' off the field lifestyle with performances on the pitch, is he racist as well? It's just old fashioned pundits/journalists, they feel like they have a right to judge other people's expression and purchases.

Unless you can come up with an article to back that up, then I'm not sure how you can be so certain of that. You were doing the exact same thing earlier in the thread and claiming Harry Kane would get slaughtered every bit as much as Sterling if he had a gun tattoed on his leg

Oh, and I'm not sure why you're dragging Gullit into it - I was querying whether there was a racial motivation behind the article, and most definitely wasn't accusing everyone of being a racist for criticising Depay.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

Unless you can come up with an article to back that up, then I'm not sure how you can be so certain of that. You were doing the exact same thing earlier in the thread and claiming Harry Kane would get slaughtered every bit as much as Sterling if he had a gun tattoed on his leg

Oh, and I'm not sure why you're dragging Gullit into it - I was querying whether there was a racial motivation behind the article, and most definitely wasn't accusing everyone of being a racist for criticising Depay.

Unless I can find an article of what? Tabloids criticising an out of form player, or tabloids having digs at players for being flashy? I'm guessing the latter, in which case:

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/five-flashy-footballers-who-love-5350616
https://www.independent.ie/style/ce...s-still-footballs-king-of-bling-34801073.html (the headline in this one might seem nice, but its basically one big article hating on footballers tattoos, their shit cars, and crap sense of style)

- Includes digs at Stephen Fletcher and Stephen Ireland and shit like 'back in the day footballers invested in pubs, now they have more money and sense!'. It's a pretty basic line that old school journalists/pundits come up with, and there is no reason to believe that the way Depay was covered is automatically racist unless you're making wild assumptions. These kind of articles are mostly written by miserable old guys who are obsessed with 'their day', hence why they dislike someone like Depay who in their view would represent everything wrong with 'modern football'. It isn't because he has black skin.

There are tons more articles of that type if you can be bothered to trawl through the tabloid press. Are people going to start pretending that they haven't been ripping in to footballers and their ostentatious lifestyles for years? Is this the point we're at now? Beckham got effigies burned of him in the streets purely because he got sent off in a game. I dread to think what people on here would say if that happened to Sterling.

Does the press have their favourites? Absolutely. Harry Kane probably wouldn't have gotten the same heat as Sterling because he's a bit of a golden boy, as a result of being a one club man with a great story about coming through the youth ranks and staying at the club he loves. He's also pretty reserved and doesn't demand big money contracts so overall he's in a good position for friendly media treatment. Even considering all that if he had an assault rifle suddenly tattooed on to his leg, the press would definitely have latched on to it. They fecking hate tattoos.

You were querying whether there was a racist motivation for the article, and I'm saying that Gullit was saying the exact same thing as the article was. That Depay should focus on his football and stop showing off his wealth in public. It's a pretty standard cliche line that pundits/journalists come out with all the time, and there's little reason to jump to the conclusion that it is racially motivated. To claim something like that the burden of proof is on you to prove that Depay was receiving treatment that his white colleagues wouldn't.

This is where I have an issue with this topic. With Sterling it's pretty clear that some of the articles written about him over the years have been influenced by racist stereotypes, that much I do accept and condemn. We certainly don't live in a country where racism has been totally defeated, so this isn't a surprise. The problem arises though when you get any negative articles or cliches written about black athletes, and people immediately jump to racism with little actual evidence to back that up. That's where you get people saying the coverage of Depay is racist, or that calling Lukaku a donkey or Pogba 'big and strong' is simply because of their race. Sometimes it isn't as dark as that.

 

[Posh Red]

You honestly can't see the difference in tone between the articles you just posted, and the other articles being discussed in this thread? You've got to be joking surely.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

You honestly can't see the difference in tone between the articles you just posted, and the other articles being discussed in this thread? You've got to be joking surely.

'10 heroic lions, one stupid boy'

I'm not going to drag up a bunch of articles with the nastiest headlines over the years. There was plenty of them about Beckham or Rooney, I remember it. They've actually deleted a bunch of them because they complained after false stories came out, I remember Rooney's lawyers fighting to get some stories taken down, yep here we go: https://www.pressgazette.co.uk/wayne-rooney-sues-daily-mirror-over-sex-stories/

He also sued The Sun for libel when they suggested he had booked tickets for a holiday during England's World Cup. The tabloid press have always been vicious cnuts who will tear in to players who aren't popular/are in bad form, this isn't something unique to players of ethnic minorities. Are we going to start pretending it is now? That Sterling and other black players are the only ones who get bad headlines? Rooney was close to breaking the goal scoring record for England and was still getting negative press in the Daily Mail ffs.

The examples I used weren't the best (the headlines were relatively tame) and when I have time I'll probably go sifting through the daily mail/sun for some nastier ones. I know they're out there because I remember them. I do also think that a big part of why Sterling has been targeted is his shit performances in an England shirt. The media tends to jump on players who the fans are most frustrated with, and a result of Sterling being so disappointing internationally compared to his club form, he's an easy target. It was the same with Rooney, you could see the protection he got in the press disappear when he started having poor performances for the national side.

Again, I'm far from suggesting it's the only reason, but I do think it contributes.

 

[M18CTID]

Unless I can find an article of what? Tabloids criticising an out of form player, or tabloids having digs at players for being flashy? I'm guessing the latter, in which case:

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/five-flashy-footballers-who-love-5350616
https://www.independent.ie/style/ce...s-still-footballs-king-of-bling-34801073.html (the headline in this one might seem nice, but its basically one big article hating on footballers tattoos, their shit cars, and crap sense of style)

- Includes digs at Stephen Fletcher and Stephen Ireland and shit like 'back in the day footballers invested in pubs, now they have more money and sense!'. It's a pretty basic line that old school journalists/pundits come up with, and there is no reason to believe that the way Depay was covered is automatically racist unless you're making wild assumptions. These kind of articles are mostly written by miserable old guys who are obsessed with 'their day', hence why they dislike someone like Depay who in their view would represent everything wrong with 'modern football'. It isn't because he has black skin.

There are tons more articles of that type if you can be bothered to trawl through the tabloid press. Are people going to start pretending that they haven't been ripping in to footballers and their ostentatious lifestyles for years? Is this the point we're at now? Beckham got effigies burned of him in the streets purely because he got sent off in a game. I dread to think what people on here would say if that happened to Sterling.

Does the press have their favourites? Absolutely. Harry Kane probably wouldn't have gotten the same heat as Sterling because he's a bit of a golden boy, as a result of being a one club man with a great story about coming through the youth ranks and staying at the club he loves. He's also pretty reserved and doesn't demand big money contracts so overall he's in a good position for friendly media treatment. Even considering all that if he had an assault rifle suddenly tattooed on to his leg, the press would definitely have latched on to it. They fecking hate tattoos.

You were querying whether there was a racist motivation for the article, and I'm saying that Gullit was saying the exact same thing as the article was. That Depay should focus on his football and stop showing off his wealth in public. It's a pretty standard cliche line that pundits/journalists come out with all the time, and there's little reason to jump to the conclusion that it is racially motivated. To claim something like that the burden of proof is on you to prove that Depay was receiving treatment that his white colleagues wouldn't.

This is where I have an issue with this topic. With Sterling it's pretty clear that some of the articles written about him over the years have been influenced by racist stereotypes, that much I do accept and condemn. We certainly don't live in a country where racism has been totally defeated, so this isn't a surprise. The problem arises though when you get any negative articles or cliches written about black athletes, and people immediately jump to racism with little actual evidence to back that up. That's where you get people saying the coverage of Depay is racist, or that calling Lukaku a donkey or Pogba 'big and strong' is simply because of their race. Sometimes it isn't as dark as that.

But sometimes it most definitely is, and that's the point so many are making. I wouldn't mind, but I've not even said the article about Depay was borne out of racism, yet that's the conclusion you drew. And if you think it isn't possible for newspapers such as the Daily Mail to publish racist articles about footballers on their back pages when they blatantly publish racist articles on their front pages then you need a reality check.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

But sometimes it most definitely is, and that's the point so many are making. I wouldn't mind, but I've not even said the article about Depay was borne out of racism, yet that's the conclusion you drew. And if you think it isn't possible for newspapers such as the Daily Mail to publish racist articles about footballers on their back pages when they blatantly publish racist articles on their front pages then you need a reality check.

You suggested it could be, when there really is no reason to feel that way. It's a pretty standard article.

Of course it's possible, I'm 100% certain that the Mail/Sun etc have published articles which are based on racist stereotypes. I just think there's plenty of examples of people jumping on articles for being racist when there isn't much actual evidence they are. Looking back through the thread, I do think that the article about Sterling and his 8 kids was racially motivated, and it's possible that other ones about him were as well. I also think that some of the articles written about him that people have called racist aren't, but are simply your standard tabloid shite.

 

[M18CTID]

You suggested it could be, when there really is no reason to feel that way. It's a pretty standard article.

Of course it's possible, I'm 100% certain that the Mail/Sun etc have published articles which are based on racist stereotypes. I just think there's plenty of examples of people jumping on articles for being racist when there isn't much actual evidence they are. Looking back through the thread, I do think that the article about Sterling and his 8 kids was racially motivated, and it's possible that other ones about him were as well. I also think that some of the articles written about him that people have called racist aren't, but are simply your standard tabloid shite.

That's fair enough and I don't disagree with a lot of that. However, I think it's right that he's called this shit out because 1) It will make the racists in the media (of which there will be some because it's unfathomable that there isn't a single racist journalist in this country) think twice before peddling their shite about him or any other black sports people, and 2) Race issues aside, the sheer number of negative articles about him have most definitely contributed to the amount of stick he's received at football grounds up and down the country which in turn has emboldened some of the more unhinged members of the public to take their hatred of him way too far, as evidenced by what happened on Saturday and, worse still, what happened outside City's training ground last season. That's why this is being classed as a watershed moment in some quarters. Not just on the race issue which is hugely important but also in general. For too long, the gutter press in this country has penned unwarranted hateful shit about people, which in turn has rubbed off on some gullible members of the public. It should've stopped nearly 30 years ago when that despicable article about Liverpool fans at Hillsborough was published and how it's been allowed to go on unabated for so long is beyond me.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

That's fair enough and I don't disagree with a lot of that. However, I think it's right that he's called this shit out because 1) It will make the racists in the media (of which there will be some because it's unfathomable that there isn't a single racist journalist in this country) think twice before peddling their shite about him or any other black sports people, and 2) Race issues aside, the sheer number of negative articles about him have most definitely contributed to the amount of stick he's received at football grounds up and down the country which in turn has emboldened some of the more unhinged members of the public to take their hatred of him way too far, as evidenced by what happened on Saturday and, worse still, what happened outside City's training ground last season.

I think in general we need to be looking at the disgusting shit the tabloid press print week in week out about players. They shouldn't be able to get away with treating any players the way they do, regardless of ethnicity.

We have a free press (and that's a good thing) but there is a difference between that and the spiteful, baseless articles that the tabloids are spewing out with regularity about players. The phone hacking scandals showed all you need to know about what level of scumbaggery they are operating on, there's a notable cruel glee you can detect when you read through some of their articles, as if they're delighting in being spiteful and vindictive. You get the feeling that a lot of angry, dissatisfied and jealous bastards work at these places.

 

[M18CTID]

I think in general we need to be looking at the disgusting shit the tabloid press print week in week out about players. They shouldn't be able to get away with treating any players the way they do, regardless of ethnicity.

We have a free press (and that's a good thing) but there is a difference between that and the spiteful, baseless articles that the tabloids are spewing out with regularity about players. The phone hacking scandals showed all you need to know about what level of scumbaggery they are operating on, there's a notable cruel glee you can detect when you read through some of their articles, as if they're delighting in being spiteful and vindictive. You get the feeling that a lot of angry, dissatisfied and jealous bastards work at these places.

Absolutely, and I went on to make that point in my previous post:

Not just on the race issue which is hugely important but also in general. For too long, the gutter press in this country has penned unwarranted hateful shit about people, which in turn has rubbed off on some gullible members of the public. It should've stopped nearly 30 years ago when that despicable article about Liverpool fans at Hillsborough was published and how it's been allowed to go on unabated for so long is beyond me.

 

[Ether]

Amir Khan went through the same thing. Lewis Hamilton, too, to a degree.

BAME superstars get extra scrutiny, extra negative coverage and question marks about how they conduct themselves.

"They can't really be a proper Brit, can they? There's something 'off' about them" is the subtext to a lot of it. The worst thing Amir Khan ever did was wear a British flag. That pissed off a lot of people. And Hamilton should have never got earrings. That's what rappers do.

TBF Amir Khan did run some bloke over while speeding, who eventually died. That might've contributed to a negative image of him, although his general arrogant demeanor had more to do with it. Wouldn't put him in the same boat as Sterling.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

Absolutely, and I went on to make that point in my previous post:

I think people have just reached a point of acceptance about the state of journalism in the country, something that I think I'm probably guilty of as well. I just see stories like that now and have little reaction to them because I don't expect anything better from these papers.

 

[Dante]

TBF Amir Khan did run some bloke over while speeding, who eventually died. That might've contributed to a negative image of him, although his general arrogant demeanor had more to do with it. Wouldn't put him in the same boat as Sterling.

He broke his leg in the accident. Then he died two years later from a gastrointesinal issue. Totally unrelated, but exactly the sort of thing the Daily Mail would be desperate to link.

You've just proven my point.

 

[Rhyme Animal]

I've stated my point over and over in other posts. I don't see why I should have to outline it again just because you struggle with reading.

No, I'm not having that, it's utter nonsense. You haven't stated your point 'over and over' again at all. And you're glossing over this and then banging out a load of garble because you don't actually have a point and are simply trying to misdirect and save face.

This conversation at the crux is about whether or not Raheem Sterling was racially abused against Chelsea, and secondarily, whether or not he has been treated badly by the press because of racism.

You've stated here that you do, in fact, believe that Raheem was racially abused during the game...

I have every reason to believe they were racially abusing him.

And you've also now conceded that he has been treated badly by the press due to racism here...

I don't think there has been 'no' racism in how the press have covered Sterling.

So that's that. Done and dusted.

Beyond that you seem to have some kind of personal axe to grind on the subject of racism in general and have a rather clumsy and heavy handed approach to the subject with the slant that you seem somehow bothered by the notion of people calling out racism and tackling it - as if that is somehow a problem within your Worldview. Which is a really weird thing to become emotional and/or passionate about given the history of the World and the current day and age we live in.

Bear in mind, no-one in this thread that you're arguing with and being rude to has expressed anything harmful or mean spirited - these are people concerned about the abuse of a young player who was racially abused, and his treatment by the right-wing gutter press, a treatment that you now concede you do believe has been affected by race.

Yet your tone on the subject of racism has a quite tangible bitterness to it, not to mention comically pompous...

So because a few black footballers have come out and expressed an opinion, this automatically shuts down all intelligent debate and the assumption automatically must be that they're correct?

Who am I? Somebody who is perfectly capable of evaluating a situation without having black skin.

I don't need to understand 'what its like to be black' to have an opinion.

I don't think you have to be an ethnic minority to understand racism for example.

The basis of the argument is that because some black people are claiming something to do with race, we should automatically say they're correct

Black footballers who have gone through experiences with this subject that would make your bottom lip quiver if you were put in the same situation, great sportsmen who have shown more grit and determination to drag this sport forward than any casual spectator can really fathom - have their opinions casually tossed aside as-

a few black footballers have come out and expressed an opinion

Rather than listen, or learn from people who you share a society with and have lived through this topic, it becomes quite clear that you'd rather squabble and be divisive, for whatever reason...

There also seems to be an issue with you being capable of stepping back and accepting that you're not as qualified to understand the raw mechanics of racism as those who have, and are living through it. And when you're reminded of this fact you become emotional and lash out - often resorting the type of base rudeness, that, given the subject, leaves a bad taste in the mouth...

I hear there are worms which we share 70% of our genetic code with, I reckon I could get one of those to add more to the debate than you do.

I don't see why I should have to outline it again just because you struggle with reading.

I've been rude to you and another poster because you have both offered nothing to the discussion

You complain and whinge a lot that if people object to your rather clumsy, mean-spirited and badly-informed approach to this complicated topic that they're dismissing you because you're white - but that's yet more complete garbage.

No-one is saying that white people can't hold opinions on racism, that would be utterly crazy, or that white people can't contribute to the conversation on racism - so many posters on this forum have written thought-provoking posts on the subject over the years that have opened my eyes to different viewpoints - but the huge difference is, you clearly have absolutely no intention of gaining any understanding...

Your intent is upon attempting to loudly ram home your mainly ill-conceived notions on a huge, sprawling, multi-faceted evil as though you're some kind of authority on the subject - when you're not, and if we're honest, you're really quite far from that.

I don't wanna continue going 'round in circles, so as I stated previously, rather than squabble or quibble back and forth, try and lay out clearly what your actual point is on the topic right now.

 

[ThierryFabregas]

It’s ok to agree to disagree . But, genuinely, I really do believe your view here is wrong. We each have an idea of what defines intelligence in our heads and let’s face it, that’s something along the lines of someone who can understand and process complex information, someone who is logical and cut through information to find what’s relevant quickly, someone who has a wide array of knowledge, etc etc. It’s fair to say, playing football isn’t seen as something that requires intelligence. But working as an actuary or a doctor, would be more conceptually in line with our definition of intelligence.

My challenge is that being a footballer at the top level is not something that would ordinarily be categorised as something that requires intelligence, but in my view it is. I absolutely agree that being physically gifted is a large part. But if that was the case, any sportsmen or sportswomen could cross sports easily. I think there is more too it. And tactics aren’t just the only element which requires intelligence. In order to determine how much energy to put through your leg to weigh a pass perfectly - that to me is intelligence. To determine where precisely a ball will land so you can meet it in the right place - that to me is intelligence. To be aware of where to move and run to be in the best place to score - that’s intelligence to me too. They say that catching a ball is one of the most strenuous exercises for our brain. How can we not say that such skills are a factor in intelligence then?

I don't agree, I don't think being a top footballer requires more intelligence than to drive a car competently. It's basic foot to eye coordination, move into space, observe and pass.

A perfectly weighted pass isn't there because of problem solving, it's there because a footballer has practiced it 100,000s of times and knows what weight to pass a ball a specific distance. It's a technique and a skill but not something that requires much thought. And if you thinking running to a ball requires intelligence you must be very impressed by most dogs intelligence

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Sorry but are we just going to let this one slide?

The phrasing might be irksome and provocative (I didn’t choose it).

But yes. I am lots smarter than Raheem Sterling.

He is lots better than me at football.

Why is that a bone of contention for you?

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Based on your posts in here, Sterling quite easily.
Now what was the point of that question?

Because it’s quite clear to an impartial observer, that you have more in common with me.

[Assumptions made]

We’re probably in;

- The same economic class
- & Have similar upbringings
- & Have the same level of education
- & Have comparable regard in our workplaces

Yet you’re plumping for Sterling... Because Black. It’s a key line of argument for you so often.

I think you’re smart. Often funny, and a poster on this board that I want to read. But the moment that race comes up you retreat to so many positions of absurdity.

I’m not attacking you. But I believe that Your post was dishonest.

As you asked... The point of my post was to highlight how daft people of colour often are, when it comes to issues of colour.

Racism is real. It’s something that I rarely, if ever, experience and I detest it. But the growing trend of labelling, rather than holding a sensible, reasonable opinion on what is, and isn’t, racism... it’s corrupting everyone, and you contribute to that. Routinely.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

I think pretty much anyone who gets a tattoo is a bit of a tool tbh, I think it is a pretty silly thing to do. I wouldn't say that would make someone a bellend though and you're still to say all these things that make him a bellend.

Who says I think highly of him? Where are you getting all of these strawmen? You seem to think I have some kind of sterling shrine. I literally don't give him a second thought unless we're playing Man City or he gets another ridiculous story about him in the media.

It completely depends. If you said Terry was a bellend, I'd agree. If you said Giggs was a bellend, I'd agree. If you said Maradona was one, Neymar was one, Campbell was one, Drogba when he first arrived was one, etc etc, I'd agree. If you said Kane was a bit of a bellend about the goal claim thing last season, I'd agree. If you said Vertonghen can be a bellend on the field, I'd agree. Ramos yes. Redknapp yes. Carragher yes. Or Alonso.

If you said Eriksen was one, I'd be a bit confused. Or Mata. Or Cristiansen. Or any number of white footballers where I saw no reason to call them a bellend. Id say exactly the same thing. What exactly makes you say that they are a bellend.

For some reason, you seem to think that a) everyone here worships sterling (when most people couldn't care less about him

and b) that you're needed to provide some much needed balance by pointing out that he's dull, not particularly well educated and has stupid tattoos (ie like a good 80% of footballers) and that black people can also be asses, in a thread about the potentially racist abuse he suffered last weekend amidst the backdrop of how he is treated by the media. Or that he's a bellend.

Great.

I don’t think you understand what a straw man is.

Go and worship next to your Sterling shrine (that I never suggested you have built you blithering idiot)

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Just because he doesn't have the best spelling and grammar doesn't mean he's stupid, or 'an idiot' as the poster described him. And in my opinion Raheem's comparison between two news articles does demonstrate a certain level of intelligence. It's certainly got people talking and he presented his argument well.

Not if people read it and realise that he’s an idiot....

 

[sullydnl]

I am lots smarter than Raheem Sterling.

Is this irony?

 

[DavidDeSchmikes]

 

[shamans]

Yes. If a white English footballer bought for big money who was playing poorly turned up in a rolls royce to training, absolutely the tabloid press would have jumped on it.

Depay got targeted because he was in shit form yet appeared cocky in the media, dressing flamboyantly and driving fancy cars etc. That put a target on his back regardless of race. Look at the treatment of Stephen Ireland as an example of a white player who got shit stories written about him because of the way he presented himself. It's not right, footballers shouldn't be judged on their personal choices which are irrelevant to their performances, but this is what the tabloid press will always do regardless of race.

They've done entire stories based on which car all the England stars drive. Delph is described as 'humble' because of it. They're just pointless, shit articles. Ruud Gullit was the one who said that Depay needed to justify his 'flashy' off the field lifestyle with performances on the pitch, is he racist as well? It's just old fashioned pundits/journalists, they feel like they have a right to judge other people's expression and purchases.

Really?

 

[villain]

Because it’s quite clear to an impartial observer, that you have more in common with me.

[Assumptions made]

We’re probably in;

- The same economic class
- & Have similar upbringings
- & Have the same level of education
- & Have comparable regard in our workplaces

Yet you’re plumping for Sterling... Because Black. It’s a key line of argument for you so often.

I think you’re smart. Often funny, and a poster on this board that I want to read. But the moment that race comes up you retreat to so many positions of absurdity.

I’m not attacking you. But I believe that Your post was dishonest.

As you asked... The point of my post was to highlight how daft people of colour often are, when it comes to issues of colour.

Racism is real. It’s something that I rarely, if ever, experience and I detest it. But the growing trend of labelling, rather than holding a sensible, reasonable opinion on what is, and isn’t, racism... it’s corrupting everyone, and you contribute to that. Routinely.

Let’s see, we are in a similar economic class. We definitely don’t have similar upbringings- I was born in actual poverty in Africa, and raised with almost no privileges as a kid until I was about 11. Education and workplaces are probably comparable.

You seem to be under the impression that’s all it takes to find parity with me? Basically money and education?

We would be worlds apart in term of music, movies, hobbies, food, culture, holidays, family values & attitudes plus many more.
Those are things which are closer to me and I identify with much more heavily than where I studied or where I work or anything related to money or education. The person I am at my workplace is not true to me - who I am when I’m at home with my family and my friends is a better reflection of myself.
And I find similarity in that in all black and PoC because there are much more similarities across things like culture and upbringing that transcend income and education

So I’m plumping for sterling because all of those things are more likely to be shared between us, and I hold much more weight for those criteria.

The point of your post was to try and highlight how people of colour are when it comes to issues of colour, yet all you’ve shown is pure ignorance.

Racism is real, and clearly you know nothing of it, nor do you understand anything about PoC - and if you find my position so absurd you can feel free to put me on ignore.

 

[africanspur]

I don’t think you understand what a straw man is.

Go and worship next to your Sterling shrine (that I never suggested you have built you blithering idiot)

Are you OK? You seem to have taken quite a bit of offence at a pretty innocuous post where I was responding to what you said. I hope it isn't because you've read too much into the post and seen something about yourself that I didn't intend.... because that would probably say more about you than me.

And straw manning is a pretty simple concept and one you've introduced quite a few times into the thread. Though perhaps I also don't quite match up to an intellectual heavyweight such as yourself so I've probably misunderstood eh?

When you're talking to anyone, I'd recommend keeping personal insults out of it. I will assume from you saying you have a job that you are a grown man/woman and very unlikely to call me a blithering idiot face to face. Don't hide behind the anonymity of the internet to insult. Talk normally as you would in real life and don't be so aggravating and people may be more keen to listen to what you're saying.

Something to ponder.

 

[RoadTrip]

I don't agree, I don't think being a top footballer requires more intelligence than to drive a car competently. It's basic foot to eye coordination, move into space, observe and pass.

A perfectly weighted pass isn't there because of problem solving, it's there because a footballer has practiced it 100,000s of times and knows what weight to pass a ball a specific distance. It's a technique and a skill but not something that requires much thought. And if you thinking running to a ball requires intelligence you must be very impressed by most dogs intelligence

Ok, thanks.

Oh and on the last part, nice soundbite, but you’re factually proven wrong by science. But it’s ok no problem.

 

[adexkola]

Since a conversation on the need for Sterling to be able to deliver when the chips are down for City, in the latter stages of the CL, is currently out of place...

It's a damn shame that the reactions to this story from prominent black people in the sport (including former players and current managers), and caftards who are black and can relate to this insidous sort of racism, and caftards who aren't black but can emphasize... Are being brushed, explained and rationalized away by others who think that this is a huge overreaction, and speaking about racism is worse than, or just as bad, as actual racism happening (overt or covert). And for those who know, this reaction is just a microcosm of the shit black people go through when voicing concerns of these kinds of issues in any arena (work, sport, culture).

"Yeah but this white person went through the same thing"

"I'm sure they had no malice in their heart"

"Calling this racism is ruining everything"

It's exhausting to push back against every microaggression you meet, especially when the wrong push back results in a worse outcome for you than the (well meaning with no bad thought in his heart) offender. So eventually, like Raheem, you just dismiss it with a laugh, while dying inside a little. And the managers (who meant well) who commended Raheem for reacting "perfectly"... What would be an imperfect reaction to being racially abused? (There's another tangent there about the "angry black (wo)man" and respectability politics, but I can't be arsed).

I get posters who wanna make an intellectual argument about everything and I get being pedantic (I can be a pedantic cnut myself on issues I have little skin in, it's a flaw I'm working on). It's an advantage they have against those for whom this issue is not an intellectual argument, but shit that has worn their resistance down to a nub, and can only post so many detailed posts (shout-out to @villain, and @africanspur and others I'm lazily omitting) before saying "feck this".

It takes a bigger person to be able to shut up and just listen and understand. I know I need improvement on this front when it comes to issues involving women and issues involving LGBT members of society. So there is some empathy there I guess, for those who can't be humble enough.

Ok feck this. Sterling was really good against Hoffenheim.

 

[RochaRoja]

Does the press have their favourites? Absolutely. Harry Kane probably wouldn't have gotten the same heat as Sterling because he's a bit of a golden boy, as a result of being a one club man with a great story about coming through the youth ranks and staying at the club he loves. He's also pretty reserved and doesn't demand big money contracts so overall he's in a good position for friendly media treatment. Even considering all that if he had an assault rifle suddenly tattooed on to his leg, the press would definitely have latched on to it. They fecking hate tattoos.

There’s also another very significant variable that you’re overlooking.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

Don't know if this has been posted.

 

[ThierryFabregas]

Don't know if this has been posted.

This goes too far. To the extent you can't criticise a player like Lukaku who's played poorly out of fear of being called racist. Ozil gets called lazy, yet runs more than most players albeit at a slow pace and guess what he's not black. But his pressing isn't very good. Are we saying that's because he's of Turkish extraction or is the criticism fair? Aguero being world class and PL Winner gets a pass for not pressing as much. One of Lukaku's strengths was his workrate prior to him getting fat. When United are mid table scapegoats will naturally be made so the comparison doesn't carry weight.

And it gets to the stage where black people perceive any criticism of a black player as racist that this becomes a problem. I've seen people on this thread defend and even up try to make out Sterling's gun tattoo is a good thing and the criticism of it is racist. Let's imagine a young black boys looking at the tattoo and interpreting it as guns are cool. In no world is that positive. And yes the fact the Sterling comes from a demographic makes that suffers most from gun and knife crimes makes it worse as a role model to that community. And the fact his father was killed by gun violence makes it worse still.

Some of the other criticism Sterling has got in the Mail was uncalled for and they clearly have an agenda against him and it is known to be a race baiting paper. However not every criticism a black person gets has a racist agenda behind it.

EDIT I had to delete the video as I'm a newbie unable to post video links

 

[Gentleman Jim]

On the pitch 3 minutes before his goal today.

 

[FootyGirl88]

Nike showing their support

Speaking up doesn't always make life easier. But easy never changed anything. @sterling7 #nothingbeatsalondoner

 

[Amar__]

Please can someone bump the thread when he is having world class performance, because every time I watch him for City(not that often tbf) and for England(quite often), he is usually one of the worst forwards on the pitch. It's really tough for me to rate him and to understand the hype, even though I quite like players of his calibre, but I just don't see it, sorry.

Maybe I am just racist, who knows.