There was a poster on here who claimed to know which players were there the night that supposedly occurred. They could probably confirm if Rafael was there or not. The idea does make sense but it is just complete guess work based on no real fact or evidence. Just as likely, if not more, that van Gaal just doesn't like his style of play.
2
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 11
- Clean sheets
- 4
- Goals
- 0
- Assists
- 1
- Yellow cards
- 2
- Status
There was a poster on here who claimed to know which players were there the night that supposedly occurred. They could probably confirm if Rafael was there or not. The idea does make sense but it is just complete guess work based on no real fact or evidence. Just as likely, if not more, that van Gaal just doesn't like his style of play.
What game are you thinking of?
Ultimately this comes down to the fact that loads of people on here either can't or won't understand why Valencia is so highly rated by his manager. And that's not something that started when Van Gaal took over. Was the same under Moyes and Fergie before him.
You have to ask yourselves, when three different managers evidently have such a different opinion to you about the same player maybe you're missing something about his game that professional football managers are better qualified to pick up on than you?
I like Rafael. He's a great character and, on his day, a great fullback. However he's struggled for form and fitness these last two seasons (his last really good season being the only one in his United career where he stayed fit - this is not a coincidence). In his absence, Valencia has come in and done a very good job and retained his place on merit. It really is that simple. If/when he gets injured or has a dip in form I'm sure Rafael will get games again. I hope he plays well enough to keep Valencia out of the team. Time will tell.
You have to ask yourselves, when three different managers evidently have such a different opinion to you about the same player maybe you're missing something about his game that professional football managers are better qualified to pick up on than you?
I like Rafael. He's a great character and, on his day, a great fullback. However he's struggled for form and fitness these last two seasons (his last really good season being the only one in his United career where he stayed fit - this is not a coincidence). In his absence, Valencia has come in and done a very good job and retained his place on merit. It really is that simple. If/when he gets injured or has a dip in form I'm sure Rafael will get games again. I hope he plays well enough to keep Valencia out of the team. Time will tell.
But Fergie and Moyes rated him as a winger, not a fullback (where they preferred Rafael).
That's irrelevant to my point in that Fergie and Moyes picking him over more popular players prompted the same baffled disbelief on here.
Like I said, when three different top flight managers see something in a footballer that you don't, chances are you're the one missing something, not them.
The same applies in reverse. When you get players that managers don't rate as highly as people on here, then chances are they see flaws that casual fans might overlook. Kagawa being a classic example.
I don't think the question should be Rafael or Valencia here. Play them both and lets get some consistency down that right hand side
You may be right there, but I think its more about Valencia attitude and workrate rather than his ability.... I think managers can trust Valencia to do the job for the position.
Fair enough, I didn't realise it was a broader discussion; assumed it was specific to the Rafa vs Val debate.
He needs to start when fit, simple as that really. Valencia can do a job when he is not fit, that is maybe a bit cynical view when you think about Valencia's decent performances, but he is not as good as Rafael.
I really miss the guy, would rather see the back of LvG than him.
Knee-jerk? Yes, but the absence of Rafa and how this season is going is all very frustrating.
I really miss the guy, would rather see the back of LvG than him.
Knee-jerk? Yes, but the absence of Rafa and how this season is going is all very frustrating.
I think the biggest Rafael fans would admit it took him until 2011 / 2012 time find a real consistency to his game. But since then he has been putting in performances at a level that I haven't seen from a United right back, since Neville's prime. He was first choice both under Ferguson in his later years and Moyes last season, the only thing that was changing that was injuries.
Rafael just adds an urgency to our team, I've said this earlier in the thread but we are a better side with him in it - that's even true this season (I think we've played our best football in Sept/Oct) despite him barely playing.
Valencia has done okay but just lacks the defensive nous, you can't blame him at all as he's being played out of position. But he has cost us goals this season on top of some crucial goals last season purely down to basic defensive errors in positioning and not being aware of what is around him. I do think he deserves to keep his starting place but lets move him forward and reunited him with Rafael on the right wing.
Yeah, I think that's a big part of it. I also think they like the fact his passing and touch is extremely consistent (well, up until that woeful pack pass the other day anyway!) as well as being very fit, strong, quick across the ground and competitive. Plus his concentration is usually excellent and I presume he's dilligent at following the managers instructions, whatever they might be. All of this might not catch the eye but it's the sort of thing that managers (and team-mates) really appreciate.
I'd like to see that too.
Luckhurst seems to really dislike Valencia (just what I have seen over his last few tweets). What he said is probably correct though.
That's a bit of a pathetic, snidey tweet tbh.
I've seen numerous from him in the same vein. One of those that by being over critical and cutting, thinks he's telling it like it is. A bit like Scholes.
Reminds me of that knob-head, Daniel Harris through most of the last few years of Fergie's reign.
He's right though, Valencia wouldn't try that in a million years. Probably why LVG rates him so highly.
Brilliant goal. Weaker foot as well. Its a bad indictment on Van Gaal if he frowns upon that kind of thing, to me. Furthermore, it's not as if Rafael's a worse defender than Valencia.
By that logic Rafael should be playing as two managers have favoured him in that position to Valencia.
The fact Valencia played a lot on the wing under Fergie and a little under Moyes doesn't have any relevance to the debate on who should start there.
For a start players deteriorate, Valencia was an excellent replacement to Ronaldo and served his purpose as a pacey winger very well. He's still a subpar right back
He frowns upon shooting at goal? I suspect not.
He's not a subpar right back. He's been a very good rightback in almost every game he's played this season. Moyes and Fergie both played him at fullback occasionally when he didn't really impress but the run of games this season has seen him develop into a very good fullback. One of our most consistent and relable performere in a season where very few players have been reliable. If you can't see that, then I understand why our opinions are so different.
He frowns apon a full back being in a position to shoot at goal. I suspect so!
That's just nonsense. Have people forgotten that he managed Philip Lahm?
Anyway, even at United, our fullbacks spend loads of time in the final third. Especially Valencia.
Well he's not wrong.
Eh thats like saying he isnt telling Herrera to become Cleverley because he managed Clarence Seedorf and he took on risky passes....
To suggest our full backs are expected to follow certain rules which kinda hinders them from getting into shooting positions is incredibly likely under his philosophy.
A lot of non-United fans seem to share LVG's opinion of Rafael. I like him and still think overall he's our best RB, but let's be honest, his injury record is poor and we have to draw a line through that. You simply can't win trophies spending most of the season rehabilitating your back 4. I'd like to see him stay and fight for his place with the RB that is inevitably signed, but even without knowing who we'll buy, it's not a fight I see Rafael winning.
It might be if we accept that he really is "telling Hererra to become Cleverley". Again, I suspect he isn't.
Whatever rules his philosophy might have, you're deluded if you think he would have been anything other than pleased with a fullback shooting in the scenario that Rafael faced. It was a no-brainer. Brilliant execution but of course he had to shoot. Van Gaal wouldn't have wanted him to do anything else.
I'd rather the GBP10-15m go towards bringing in his replacement and having Valencia as back up.
I don't mean shooting at goal. I mean the willingness to go for the riskier option. I don't think Valencia would've even been in that sort of position from an opposition goalkeeper's throw. I don't think you can dispute that Van Gaal has totally frozen Rafael out for whatever reason, and I can't say I agree with that decision. That's not a knock on Valencia's performances this season. I even mentioned how he had a good game against Arsenal, despite his mistakes leading to both the goals.
Different standards or definition of a full back perhaps.
Hes very good at following the instructions of playing it safe , obv bar his mistake the other day but these things happen.
He offers nothing going forward and hardly offers a solid presence at the back except his ability to ram into the back of someone and avoid giving away a foul.
The way we've been set up all season has put very little pressure on our fullbacks and much more on the centre backs imo
I suspect your right of course but the herrera of today is playing closer to Cleverley's playing style than the Herrera which played against us for Bilbao. I'm just venting anger at his demise dont mind me. I would say this. If he is not under instruction to limit his passing, I'd sell him this summer for his displays. If he is under instruction, I hope the addition of another CM will give him more freedom next year
True it is guess work, but I think the complete freeze out job makes the guess carry some weight.
I agree with the bulk of the post, I am a huge fan of Rafael's style but I think all 3 managers have had a degree of doubt regarding him, but I think the first sentence misses the mark on why some are so frustrated, it's not just the Raf vs Tony V thing, it's that Raf is being dumped in the U21's while McNair is the back up RB that has so many annoyed.
I know this doesn't fit the narrative, but Valencia has picked up more injuries than Rafael since the start of the season. Save for about 7-10 days he's been available to play since the last week of November i think.
However if these reports surrounding Van Gaal's training methods are accurate, it could be that Rafael was an early casualty of the philosophy.
I don't dispute that at all. My take on it is that Rafael hasn't been entirely convincing and Valencia made the position his own when Rafael was out injured.
I've got a lot of problems with Van Gaal but one of the few things I like about him is that he seems to pick the team on merit. If someone comes in and does a good job he'll keep picking them until they let him down. With Valencia being so consistent (and resistant to injury) it's been very hard for Rafael to get a game. I think all the stuff about him not fitting in with his "philosophy" is ignoring this very simple reason for Valencia holding down the RB position.
How would Rafael pick up more injuries watching on from the sidelines? Tripping up on his way to the seat!
Good points actually. Never thought of it that way. Then again, what was Van Gaal doing playing McNair in RB ahead of Rafael? Has Rafael really fallen that far down the pecking order?
The McNair thing is odd. Perhaps he's been on the bench instead of Rafael because he can cover two positions if necessary? In terms of starting games he came in and was excellent (against Preston? or was it Cambridge?) then started the next game, was crap, and hasn't been seen since.
Wasn't that also around the time Rafael was recently injured (lacking "match rhythm"?) Anyway, I'd be amazed if Rafael didn't start the next game that Valencia was unavailable. Especially with him looking good for the reserves. If that doesn't happen then I'll accept Van Gaal must really think he's crap.
I don't get this view that we only need to assess his injury record this season. Or this odd idea that it's only muscular injuries that are an issue and things like the broken cheekbone don't count.
We're just past the first week of March and people are using the fact a player has been available "save for about 7-10 days" since the first week of December as evidence that he's not injury prone. Colour me not convinced.
- Status