[mazhar13]

Brainfarts, rashness, petulance, inconsistency and inability to stay fit. Valencia is the opposite so its fairly obvious why he gets the nod. If we want to ever get to the stage where we can field a consistant back 4 week after week then Valencia is the one of the 2 we need to persevere with.

Out of those descriptions, the only ones I'd agree with are "inability to stay fit" and "inconsistency" (in a way). He's been less rash than many full backs that others rate, and the "brainfarts" and "petulance" was something he showed before he matured. When he's played regularly, he's been consistently great. However, when injuries occur, he becomes more inconsistent, which is understandable given that he never gets going.

Yes, Valencia is reliable in that he follows instructions to the point and you know what he brings to the table every match. However, he doesn't have the quality in his game that Rafael has. Valencia is very reliant on his physical traits when defending, unlike Rafael, who's very good at marking players and positioning himself, defensively. Going forward, Valencia has improved under van Gaal, but he's still very ponderous, unlike Rafael, who's quicker on the ball and has possesses more variety and quality in his attacking game.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

Brainfarts, rashness, petulance, inconsistency and inability to stay fit. Valencia is the opposite so its fairly obvious why he gets the nod. If we want to ever get to the stage where we can field a consistant back 4 week after week then Valencia is the one of the 2 we need to persevere with.

Valencia has been more foul prone than Rafael this season.

 

[Cutch]

Out of those descriptions, the only ones I'd agree with are "inability to stay fit" and "inconsistency" (in a way). He's been less rash than many full backs that others rate, and the "brainfarts" and "petulance" was something he showed before he matured. When he's played regularly, he's been consistently great. However, when injuries occur, he becomes more inconsistent, which is understandable given that he never gets going.

Yes, Valencia is reliable in that he follows instructions to the point and you know what he brings to the table every match. However, he doesn't have the quality in his game that Rafael has. Valencia is very reliant on his physical traits when defending, unlike Rafael, who's very good at marking players and positioning himself, defensively. Going forward, Valencia has improved under van Gaal, but he's still very ponderous, unlike Rafael, who's quicker on the ball and has possesses more variety and quality in his attacking game.

He plays the game far too close to the edge for Van Gaals liking. Far too prone to picking up silly early bookings, and losing concentration in a game usually against top sides and costing us a goal. Add to that his inability to stay fit and its a no brainer.

You're also overrating his ability on the ball. His attacking game is as an overlapping fullback that played his best football with Valencia/Nani infront of him. As unexciting as Valencia is he offers a more complete allround package than Rafael does.

Valencia has been more foul prone than Rafael this season.

He's a work in progress as a fullback but he's improving all the time. Theres no doubt Rafael is the more rash of the 2 and that Valencia has the far better temperament.

 

[mazhar13]

He plays the game far too close to the edge for Van Gaals liking. Far too prone to picking up silly early bookings, and losing concentration in a game usually against top sides and costing us a goal. Add to that his inability to stay fit and its a no brainer.

You're also overrating his ability on the ball. His attacking game is as an overlapping fullback that played his best football with Valencia/Nani infront of him. As unexciting as Valencia is he offers a more complete allround package than Rafael does.

I can agree with you about him being a bit too aggressive for van Gaal, but then again, when you look at the other full backs out there, I can only name Carvajal, Ivanovic, Lahm, Piszczek, Juanfran, and Darmian who are less "on the edge" than Rafael is. Full backs nowadays are very aggressive in their game, and Rafael isn't even as aggressive as your average good full back (Coleman, Clyne, Zabaleta, etc.).

Also, I don't seem to recall him costing us against top teams unless you count him failing to stop Drogba from scoring against us at a corner. The last time he really cost us in a match against a top team was against Bayern in 2010 with his petulance and rashness in full display. Since then, he's done a great job against the likes of Bale, Hazard, C. Ronaldo, and many more great attacking players.

Again, the only thing that he has against him is his inability to stay fully fit. The "rashness" argument can only be fair if there's a full back available who's less rash than Rafael and better, defensively, but at the moment, I just don't see such a right back.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

That's BS, and you can try to restrict it to the last 2 or so seasons, my criteria for judging that his time here might be up is based on his 5 seasons here. during that time his record is thus:

Why shouldn't we use the most relevant data to reach a conclusion? If Rafael has been capable of 35-40 appearances over a three year period (with the other jsut shy of 30), then not only is it indicative of a generally positive trend but put a sizeable hole in the argument of his supposed "unreliability".

I should have added niggling to that sentence but the answer to your question is easily, by balancing both risk based on history and judgement based on talent. Da Silva is neither robust enough to take the risk of trying to make him a mainstay in a side where you are looking to be able to make consistent selections, nor his talent such that we could not look to buy better this summer. In the meantime there are better options even in the current squad, hence Valencia starting.

That is either false, as demonstrated above, or entirely your subjective assessment of a player's worth to the team.

I respect LVG greatly for casting aside sentimentality and doing what needs to be done.

*cough* Van Persie *cough*

 

[paulscholes18]

If we stick to playing wide player then rafa should be our right back

 

[Cutch]

I can agree with you about him being a bit too aggressive for van Gaal, but then again, when you look at the other full backs out there, I can only name Carvajal, Ivanovic, Lahm, Piszczek, Juanfran, and Darmian who are less "on the edge" than Rafael is. Full backs nowadays are very aggressive in their game, and Rafael isn't even as aggressive as your average good full back (Coleman, Clyne, Zabaleta, etc.).

Also, I don't seem to recall him costing us against top teams unless you count him failing to stop Drogba from scoring against us at a corner. The last time he really cost us in a match against a top team was against Bayern in 2010 with his petulance and rashness in full display. Since then, he's done a great job against the likes of Bale, Hazard, C. Ronaldo, and many more great attacking players.

Again, the only thing that he has against him is his inability to stay fully fit. The "rashness" argument can only be fair if there's a full back available who's less rash than Rafael and better, defensively, but at the moment, I just don't see such a right back.

Antonio Valencia, and he's only been playing the position 6 months.

Did well against Bale certainly atleast once but Hazard and Ronaldo both tore him a new one the last time he faced them. Its not even just against big teams, check out the goals conceded in the pivotal 4-4 against Everton in 2012, or even the goals conceded in some of his outings this and last season. He's always prone to a lapse of concentration and these inevitably come to the fore when his defending comes under serious scrutiny in games where we're under the cosh. He'll play 2-3 games looking world class then he'll let himself down with indiscipline or a defensive lapse, or get injured. An ongoing cycle.

 

[mazhar13]

Antonio Valencia, and he's only been playing the position 6 months.

Did well against Bale certainly atleast once but Hazard and Ronaldo both tore him a new one the last time he faced them. Its not even just against big teams, check out the goals conceded in the pivotal 4-4 against Everton in 2012, or even the goals conceded in some of his outings this and last season. He's always prone to a lapse of concentration and these inevitably come to the fore when his defending comes under serious scrutiny in games where we're under the cosh. He'll play 2-3 games looking world class then he'll let himself down with indiscipline or a defensive lapse, or get injured. An ongoing cycle.

You may think that Valencia's a better right back, defensively, but he's too reliant on his speed, strength, and aggression. He can get away with that against players who rely on their speed, strength, and aggression, like Bolasie, Sagbo, Wickham, etc., but I won't see Valencia doing well against players like Hazard, Sanchez, Bale, or C. Ronaldo.

Rafael contained Hazard in our last match bar the one moment he slipped through in the second half. Hazard wasn't even a threat at all in that match thanks to Rafael. In our last 2 matches against Real Madrid, C. Ronaldo's telling impact came when he didn't face Rafael, and when he did, Rafael did a great stop at nullifying his attacking threat. At Old Trafford, C. Ronaldo only had a telling impact once we went down to 10 men.

And in terms of him making mistakes, I did acknowledge that he is inconsistent, but that's mostly been due to his injury issues and not because he's naturally inconsistent. Look at the 2012/13 season. He was fit for almost the full season, and as a result, he was our best player behind van Persie. There was no inconsistency that season from him.

 

[POF]

Hazard and Ronaldo both tore him a new one the last time he faced them.

Hazard? You mean the 1-1 this season. Despite Rafael being on a booking from early in the game he completely nullified Hazard. The one significant contribution Hazard made was when he drifted centrally running through the centre of United's defence just before Drogba's goal. When did Ronaldo tear him a new one?

 

[BAMSOLA]

Why shouldn't we use the most relevant data to reach a conclusion? If Rafael has been capable of 35-40 appearances over a three year period (with the other jsut shy of 30), then not only is it indicative of a generally positive trend but put a sizeable hole in the argument of his supposed "unreliability".

That's not relevant data, thats one whole season in 5 where he has been able to start above 30 games and the other 4 he hasn't and as I mentioned before I don't believe the problem is bad luck and see no reason to believe it will get better over time, LVG seems to have reached the same conclusion, albeit that I might be wrong about his reasons and he has simply decided that Rafael isn't good enough purely in terms of quality and there is enough evidence to support that conclusion as well.

That is either false, as demonstrated above, or entirely your subjective assessment of a player's worth to the team.

Its is clearly true as demonstrated by 5 seasons worth of data where he has only once played more than 30 games, do keep up! Also my "subjective" assessment of the player concerned seems to be being backed up by LVG's assessment and his at the end of the day is the only opinion that really counts, my point all along has been that regarding RB I can see exactly where he is coming from by not selecting Rafael.

*cough* Van Persie *cough*

*Cough* Our second highest scorer *cough* you sometimes have to play top strikers into form *cough* A goal could be all it takes to get him going *cough* he will probably be gone at the end of the season.

 

[Cutch]

Hazard? You mean the 1-1 this season. Despite Rafael being on a booking from early in the game he completely nullified Hazard. The one significant contribution Hazard made was when he drifted centrally running through the centre of United's defence just before Drogba's goal. When did Ronaldo tear him a new one?

Forgot that he played against Hazard this season but that was typical him getting booked in the first 15 minutes for a foul on Hazard and walking a tightrope all game.

Rafael had a shocker against Madrid away in 12-13. Was tore apart in the first half but recovered a bit better in the second. I remember the ridicule Fergie got for saying Rafael would stop Ronaldo.

 

[mazhar13]

Was tore apart in the first half but recovered a bit better in the second.

I don't ever remember Rafael being torn apart in that match. Sure, he didn't fully contain C. Ronaldo, but in no way was he torn apart. He actually had a great performance against him even in the first half.

 

[Cutch]

I don't ever remember Rafael being torn apart in that match. Sure, he didn't fully contain C. Ronaldo, but in no way was he torn apart. He actually had a great performance against him even in the first half.

Everyone wanted him subbed off at HT for Cleverley, he was all over the shop against Ronaldo. He was better in the 2nd half.

 

[mazhar13]

Everyone wanted him subbed off at HT for Cleverley, he was all over the shop against Ronaldo. He was better in the 2nd half.

Really? I didn't notice anything like this in the newbies at that time. I, myself, was very happy with Rafael in the first half, and he was immense in the second half.

 

[POF]

Forgot that he played against Hazard this season but that was typical him getting booked in the first 15 minutes for a foul on Hazard and walking a tightrope all game.

Rafael had a shocker against Madrid away in 12-13. Was tore apart in the first half but recovered a bit better in the second. I remember the ridicule Fergie got for saying Rafael would stop Ronaldo.

Hazard is the best winger in the league by a long way. He is a phenomenal player and Rafael completely nullified him. Who cares if he got a booking?

I actually don't remember Ronaldo destroying him but even if he did, there's no shame in that. Ronaldo is the best player in the world. Rafael isn't the best right back in the world. The point is that he's the best right back at United and should always play when fit. Being outplayed by Ronaldo in one game doesn't change that.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

That's not relevant data, thats one whole season in 5 where he has been able to start above 30 games and the other 4 he hasn't and as I mentioned before I don't believe the problem is bad luck and see no reason to believe it will get better over time, LVG seems to have reached the same conclusion, albeit that I might be wrong about his reasons and he has simply decided that Rafael isn't good enough purely in terms of quality and there is enough evidence to support that conclusion as well.

Do you believe that two minor injuries since August represent a severity of complaint sufficient to preclude Rafael from the majority of matches over half a year?

I certainly do not, which means that he has been capable of well over 30+ games twice, not once.

my point all along has been that regarding RB I can see exactly where he is coming from by not selecting Rafael.

I too can envisage such a reason, i would venture to guess that footballing style may be the clash here.

*Cough* Our second highest scorer *cough* you sometimes have to play top strikers into form *cough* A goal could be all it takes to get him going *cough* he will probably be gone at the end of the season.

Neither of which refutes the case for sentimentality on the part Van Gaal, not where RVP is concerned.

 

[BAMSOLA]

Do you believe that two minor injuries since August represent a severity of complaint sufficient to preclude Rafael from the majority of matches over half a year?

I certainly do not, which means that he has been capable of well over 30+ games twice, not once.

Why would I be looking at just this season and the last for evidence of a problem with injuries when I have 5 years worth of data that tells me all I need to know?

As for your second point it is not backed up by any evidence, can you show me where in the 5 years he has completed a 30 + game season more than once? If you can't I am inclined to believe that you are making things up as you go along. The stats I posted even showed that on the one occasion he completed a 40 game season (the only time he reached over 30 games a season in his entire 5 or so years playing career with us.) He then took a backward step by completing only 28 games the following season, which in itself is characteristic of his career with us as its been one step forward and two steps back all the way. The stats would suggest to me that the one time he was able to complete above 30 games a season was a blip and shows no sign of upward trend in terms of him getting used to the physical demands needed to play consistently at this level without picking up niggly injuries. They also suggest that had he started more games he would most likely by now be injured again and the only reason he is currently still fit is because he isn't starting premiership games, because if you look at the incidents of him picking up injuries during actual games its quite high, therein lies the biggest reason why it would be the correct decision to look at other options for first choice RB this summer.

I too can envisage such a reason, i would venture to guess that footballing style may be the clash here.

I'd say it is down to lack of quality and reliability rather than a clash of styles but you can phrase it that way if you like.

Neither of which refutes the case for sentimentality on the part Van Gaal, not where RVP is concerned.

All of it does actually as it makes perfect sense to continue to play a striker into form when that player can on his day can be the biggest difference between a win and a draw or defeat. RVP was still one of the best strikers on display at the world cup last year so going on reputation alone rather than any emotional attachment or sentiment it is the right thing to do in the case of a striker with RVP's track record, because as with all strikers it only takes 1 goal sometimes to reawaken their goal scoring instincts.

History is full of strikers who were on goal droughts for whom their managers simply decided to continue to give them the opportunity to get out of that hole by scoring goals, it is nothing to do with sentiment and everything to do with understanding that form with striker is all about confidence as opposed to Rafael's situation where it could be said that he plays in a position which is all about the ability to build an understanding with the players around him by playing consistently alongside them, hence the problem.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

Rafael struggled in the first leg against Madrid but, it was understandable because he was playing against Ronaldo and Wayne Rooney was playing on the right wing that match and he offered him no help.

 

[Kazi]

On the bench at least.

 

[MyOnlySolskjaer]

He's aliveeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

 

[Devil may care]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned for a while as nothing came of it was the whole bog blowjob thing, maybe it was Raf getting head and he's been punished for it, tonight marks the end of the punishment.

 

[Pexbo]

He will only get injured if he comes on.

 

[EdWeatherall]

His best game for a long time

 

[Skills]

Our manager is a moron. Sanchez was roasting Valencia down the left and our one competent RB was sitting on the bench.

 

[evra]

Why on earth are we playing a limited player out of position when we have a talented young right back festering on the fecking bench?

 

[Kazi]

If there's anything positive we can take out of that match, hopefully it's the possibility of Rafael getting a start.

 

[ZDwyr]

If there's anything positive we can take out of that match, hopefully it's the possibility of Rafael getting a start.

Same line of thinking for me. Valencia was shown up drastically. Rafa may be back in the frame now.

 

[MoneyMay]

Just scored...

Best player on the field so far against Tottenham. Really hope Van Gaal utilises him in the next few weeks.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

It is just sad seeing him in u-21 matches.

 

[#07]

Just scored...

Best player on the field so far against Tottenham. Really hope Van Gaal utilises him in the next few weeks.

Van Gaal doesn't see what we see. Most fans thought the first half last night was great, Van Gaal thought we needed two changes. Most fans think Rafael is the best right back at United, Van Gaal though...

 

[justboy68]

What a goal that is.

 

[DWelbz19]

Pretty ridiculous if he don't start next game.

 

[Hed Zitin]

Pretty ridiculous if he don't start next game.

Our manager, confidence booster or honesty, said Valencia was our best player. He's going nowhere.

Shame he isn't in the side. One of the very few players at this club I have some fondness for. You can tell he loves the shirt.

An exciting player that can't get in a boring team.

 

[Cheesy]

Our manager, confidence booster or honesty, said Valencia was our best player. He's going nowhere.

Shame he isn't in the side. One of the very few players at this club I have some fondness for. You can tell he loves the shirt.

An exciting player that can't get in a boring team.

It'll be his fitness problems which perhaps make LVG reluctant to play him. I quite like him and think he's comfortably a better right back than Valencia, and if he stays fit then he could still have some potential, but it's looking unlikely he's going to get a lot of playing time at the moment.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

Great goal. Didn't see the game but that goal alone displayed more technical ability than Valencia has shown in the last 3 years.

Could easily play the two of them with Valencia on the wing to track back. But probably won't.

 

[Ballache]

He was so much better than everyone else on the pitch, he deserves a chance.

 

[Devil may care]

Quality goal but LvG's post match comments last night suggest he's a Tony V forever man.

 

[MyOnlySolskjaer]

Watched the whole game, he absolutely tore that right flank down. Great deliveries, great speed, one touch overlaps and was defensively solid. I know it's only U21's but he looked phenomenal.

He could have easily had 4/5 assists if the finishing and movement was better, have to say Peirera was excellent too.

Giggs was watching the match and hopefully he'll sneak a word in to LvG.

PS: That Rafael goal was with his weaker foot...

 

[Amar__]

Just scored...

Best player on the field so far against Tottenham. Really hope Van Gaal utilises him in the next few weeks.

Man, I miss him. It's incredible how much better he is attacking wise than Valencia.

 

[royboy16]

Pretty ridiculous if he don't start next game.

Why cause he can score a goal against an U21 side ?
The manager doesnt rate him.