Racism incident in PSG v Istanbul match

Zehner said:
I see your point and in general, I agree. In his positions he should be more aware how such a formulation could be interpreted. But as you said it might come down to a slip of the tongue or a moment of naivety or something similar, it's not necessarily ill intended or even racist. And initially, I compared the situation to Cavani who also used a term that might be interpreted differently by people speaking a different language respectively coming from a different culture.

Yet you're correct that a referee should be more aware of such things than a footballer because politically correctness in the frame of maximum neutrality is actually part of his profession.
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Completely. I abhor racism in all facets, I’m white, I have dear friends of color with whom I have colloquial relationships verbally & it is perfectly acceptable in those certain environments, but you have to comport to the protocols of your profession & not be so ignorantly cavalier with your management style when working. This sounds a bit sterile, but this is what it is.

This is an unfortunate situation, no doubt, but the mistake lies with the official. He apparently slipped up when describing someone while working. In most business settings would quickly become an HR issue & rightfully so; it’ll probably become one within his association. We’re watching this cat in his business setting, there exists different appropriate protocols when he is working.
 
slyadams said:
No-one has said its anything to be ashamed of. Being fat isn't something to be ashamed of, but you wouldn't want to be called 'fat' as a primary description. Losing a leg isn't anything to be ashamed of, but being identified as the 'one legged guy' probably wouldn't be nice. Being old isn't something to be ashamed of but it wouldn't be nice to be referred to as 'the old one'. Being short isn't something to be ashamed of, but being referred to as 'the short one' probably wouldn't be ideal. Having a burnt face isn't something to be ashamed of but being referred to as 'the one with the burnt face' would be abhorrent.
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Being black, and being any of the things you just listed is very different, you are bound to see that right? Can you not see what you have just done, you have listed 5 things and compared it to being black, seriously you just did that, what made you feel the need for that comparison? A white, or anyone of ethnic origin could have those afflictions. Sorry man, that's a really odd post. A black person is proud of being black..... its not an affliction.
 
InLevyITrust said:
Nope, but I dont see how if I was talking about a team I was in control of I couldn't call him by his name. You are still missing the point, you seem to think being called black is an insult, its very odd.
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But he didn’t call him by his name. It’s not specifically appropriate to refer to a player by his first name, but it happens all the time. In this specific professional setting, it’s completely inappropriate. In many other settings that are more colloquial, it’s not unacceptable to use racial descriptors. I use them with my friends. But you don’t use them at work, especially in a management setting.

What do you do for living, if you don’t mind me asking?
 
Chipper said:
He said you were outside the room. How do you know where the people are sitting/standing before you enter?

Not that this scenario happened tonight, but then nobody tonight was called Sam I don't think so in for a penny in for a pound.
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:lol: You'd just say he's in there and the guy would go in and ask for Sam. These made up scenarios are daft as
 
Dwazza Gunnar Solskjær said:
Apologies, JP. I had the impression that you were indicating there were possible means for the fourth official to know or reference Webo's name.
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There are possible ways which I mentioned but it doesn't mean that he necessarily will for the reason that you mentioned, though it would be surprising that they didn't retain the names of both assistant managers.
 
NinjaFletch said:
Do you not think you could engage your brain for two seconds and think that maybe, given the fact that BOTH teams walked off the pitch in clear upset and anger at what happened that maybe your insistence that what happened is in no way, shape, or form, racist might be misplaced?

You're far from the worst culprit in this thread, but it's a shame that all of the arbiters of racism are posting on redcafe. Perhaps, Uefa could appoint you all to games and you can tell the teams in person that they are wrong to take offence and should get on with playing football.
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It is something that both teams walked off together, especially in such a match. Granted, PSG is in quite a sweet spot right now.
 
We've now had multiple people of colour in this thread share their view. Some would be fine with it, some wouldn't like it. So surely those arguing for the use of skin colour as a descriptor can at least see that it isn't good to do so in this context?
 
slyadams said:
I will never be so arrogant to presume to tell a black person they shouldn't be offended when someone categorizes primarily by the colour of their skin. I haven't lived that life, I cannot possibly understand how they would feel.
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Of course it's ok to feel offended.
But I hope people also try to understand whether it was really meant in bad spirit. Maybe it's a miscommunication and misunderstanding and this could be acknowledged by the public an also the offended party.

I mean if I feel offended by some remark I still dont think I have the right to dictate how his remark has to be punished without even bothering to understand the context
Annihilate Now! said:
What people need to realise is, if someone believes they have been identified based just on the colour of their skin (in a professional setting no less) and that has upset them... Then it is not yours, mine or anyone elses right to say whether or not that is justified.

And even thinking that you can somehow say whether they're wrong to feel that way is kind of shitty.

And if you call then a "snowflake" or whatever other shit term you come up with, then that makes you a massive twat.
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Of course they have a right to feel upset, but that doesnt mean the other party has to be punished. I felt upset
calodo2003 said:
I would attempt to describe the others first, focusing on descriptors like attire, hair color, positive height (tall, not short). Then gender. Wouldn’t state race unless absolutely necessary, then only to the boss & no one else. Wouldn’t let someone overhear.

But, using attire, hair color, positive height, & gender will allow you to be accurately descriptive of three different people every time. There isn’t a situation where you would have to use a racial descriptor in such a closed environment. It’s simply unprofessional to use one in such a fluid environment like a sporting event where an inappropriate word could be so easily misconstrued.
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If I'm the only asian guy in the group and you describe me as the guy with dark hair, male and of middle height with chequered shirt... instead of saying the asian one.... I'd be quite puzzled why you think calling me asian is such an issue that you'd have to avoid it by all means.
 
slyadams said:
I will never be so arrogant to presume to tell a black person they shouldn't be offended when someone categorizes primarily by the colour of their skin. I haven't lived that life, I cannot possibly understand how they would feel.
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Imo, If there's no offence meant whatsoever, then the words better be damn near brutal in order for there to be no acceptance. I've more or less been all over the world on a yearly basis for the past 10 or so years in relation to work, i don't think i've ever met someone that's so brutal when it comes to "understanding" as people are online, for me it's quite telling.

People need to calm down a fair bit here. The referees communicate between themselves in their own language, Ba overhears the conversation and reacts to a word that to him sounds racist and then it spirals out of control. I honestly find it a bit bizarre that it results with the match being abandoned, surely sitting them down and explaining the situation and how no offence whatsoever was meant should clear things up. Some common sense needs to be applied to this entire thing.
 
VeevaVee said:
:lol: You'd just say he's in there and the guy would go in and ask for Sam. These made up scenarios are daft as
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You’d say to your boss go and find out for yourself, just to avoid saying “Jamie is the lady”? Sure you would.

calodo2003 said:
It is something that both teams walked off together, especially in such a match. Granted, PSG is in quite a sweet spot right now.
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Agree with this. Whilst I wish it was over an incident of actual racism, I think it’s fantastic that the two teams took a combined approach.
 
calodo2003 said:
But he didn’t call him by his name. It’s not specifically appropriate to refer to a player by his first name, but it happens all the time. In this specific professional setting, it’s completely inappropriate. In many other settings that are more colloquial, it’s not unacceptable to use racial descriptors. I use them with my friends. But you don’t use them at work, especially in a management setting.

What do you do for living, if you don’t mind me asking?
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I work in government, and I have never had any complaints, but that's cause I am familiar with who I work with, I have been called Irish before and not once did it bother me. But that is very different from a sports field, I don't get the problem on description, unless there is a problem in being black. YES if it was derogatory but other wise no, and I have never heard it as a problem in the 20 years I have played shit standard rugby. I have heard ginger, bald players called by the ref. Just play the game and get on with it.
 
calodo2003 said:
It is something that both teams walked off together, especially in such a match. Granted, PSG is in quite a sweet spot right now.
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Yes, indeed. But, as ever, people who would probably profess to not be racist or to abhor racism are once again here to whitesplain racism rather than shut up and try and understand why people were upset.
 
calodo2003 said:
The official should have used more common sense in his setting at the time.
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He talked in his native language. You can't judge someone for something said in a different language just because it sounds racist in yours.
For example in Korean You sounds like N..a


Would you judge 2 koreans talking to each other in korean just because you heard the N word ?
This is whats happening right now
 
InLevyITrust said:
Being black, and being any of the things you just listed is very different, you are bound to see that right? Can you not see what you have just done, you have listed 5 things and compared it to being black, seriously you just did that, what made you feel the need for that comparison? A white, or anyone of ethnic origin could have those afflictions. Sorry man, that's a really odd post. A black person is proud of being black..... its not an affliction.
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I think you're deliberately being obtuse now. I was solely addressing your bizarre statement that not wanting to be primarily identified as 'X' means you're ashamed of 'X'. You're bound to see that right?
 
Doracle said:
And if roles are reversed and you are asking a colleague which one is Jamie? They say (entirely sensibly I suggest) that Jamie is the lady or the white guy? You sack them or suspend them for a very long time or do you say thanks and go and speak to Jamie?
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Wouldn’t need to use the racial descriptor. Jamie’s either the male or the female. If it was a subordinate, I would counsel them to not to use racial descriptors. If someone overheard my subordinate telling me ‘the white guy’ & got offended, then things would be escalated, who knows what the result will be. This is typical business protocol, this isn’t voodoo. I wouldn’t have any recourse over my peer other than to let them know their racial descriptors are inappropriate.

The officials are the bosses on the pitch. They are held to higher standards & rightfully so.
 
UncleBob said:
Imo, If there's no offence meant whatsoever, then the words better be damn near brutal in order for there to be no acceptance. I've more or less been all over the world on a yearly basis for the past 10 or so years in relation to work, i don't think i've ever met someone that's so brutal when it comes to "understanding" as people are online, for me it's quite telling.

People need to calm down a fair bit here. The referees communicate between themselves in their own language, Ba overhears the conversation and reacts to a word that to him sounds racist and then it spirals out of control. I honestly find it a bit bizarre that it results with the match being abandoned, surely sitting them down and explaining the situation and how no offence whatsoever was meant should clear things up. Some common sense needs to be applied to this entire thing.
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But this isn’t true. Ba hasn’t misunderstood anything judging by the conversation on record. Ba is very clearly heard describing how inappropriate it is to refer to someone as ‘the black guy’, when they would less than likely do the same in a different situation. I’m sure by now both teams are well aware of what was said, and they weren’t able to be convinced to come out and play again. Whatever your thoughts are on this, the players themselves are definitely not happy about what happened.
 
JPRouve said:
There are possible ways which I mentioned but it doesn't mean that he necessarily will for the reason that you mentioned, though it would be surprising that they didn't retain the names of both assistant managers.
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I suppose that might depend on whether one thinks the assistant managers matter or not, at least when it comes to their allowable interactions with match officials.
 
calodo2003 said:
The official should have used more common sense in his setting at the time.
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No doubt about it.

The case has been blown out of proportion, though.
Common sense would be to actually listen to ref and understand his perspective/explanation.

While I understand people celebrating the mutual reaction of both teams, I think in this case it really made very little sense
(as opposed to cases of "fans" abusing players e.g. in Italy).
 
UncleBob said:
Imo, If there's no offence meant whatsoever, then the words better be damn near brutal in order for there to be no acceptance. I've more or less been all over the world on a yearly basis for the past 10 or so years in relation to work, i don't think i've ever met someone that's so brutal when it comes to "understanding" as people are online, for me it's quite telling.

People need to calm down a fair bit here. The referees communicate between themselves in their own language, Ba overhears the conversation and reacts to a word that to him sounds racist and then it spirals out of control. I honestly find it a bit bizarre that it results with the match being abandoned, surely sitting them down and explaining the situation and how no offence whatsoever was meant should clear things up. Some common sense needs to be applied to this entire thing.
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I actually don't disagree the most likely (and appropriate) result of this is the referee apologises and Ba and the coach say "OK, I understand the confusion, it's all good". What I don't accept is people on this thread presuming to tell people of colour how they should or shouldn't feel.
 
slyadams said:
I think you're deliberately being obtuse now. I was solely addressing your bizarre statement that not wanting to be primarily identified as 'X' means you're ashamed of 'X'. You're bound to see that right?
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No your making excuses, if you are white, you are white, if you are black you are black, why do you see the obtuseness? There is nothing wrong in either other than what you are saying is wrong. You seem to think its wrong to be black?
 
InLevyITrust said:
No yhour making excuses, if you are white, you are white, if you are black you are black, why do you see the obtuseness? There is nothing wrong in either other than what you are saying is wrong.
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Ok, you're right and everyone who thinks otherwise is wrong, got it.
 
InLevyITrust said:
I work in government, and I have never had any complaints, but that's cause I am familiar with who I work with, I have been called Irish before and not once did it bother me. But that is very different from a sports field, I don't get the problem on description, unless there is a problem in being black. YES if it was derogatory but other wise no, and I have never heard it as a problem in the 20 years I have played shit standard rugby. I have heard ginger, bald players called by the ref. Just play the game and get on with it.
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It’s still a profession though, there are certain protocols at play, especially in a multicultural profession. It’s this cat’s job, just like your government job is yours & my F & B job is mine. We all have protocols to which to adhere. There’s no difference simply because men are kicking a ball around, thus standards should be lowered. That’s impugning another profession for no reason, a bit narcissist, especially when one brings up anecdotal history of their own

It’s also different ballgame when one is managing vs. one being a subordinate.
 
Posh Red said:
But this isn’t true. Ba hasn’t misunderstood anything judging by the conversation on record. Ba is very clearly heard describing how inappropriate it is to refer to someone as ‘the black guy’, when they would less than likely do the same in a different situation. I’m sure by now both teams are well aware of what was said, and they weren’t able to be convinced to come out and play again. Whatever your thoughts are on this, the players themselves are definitely not happy about what happened.
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So he's is unhappy about a black guy being called black? That's what you are saying?
 
GifLord said:
He talked in his native language. You can't judge someone for something said in a different language just because it sounds racist in yours.

Would you judge 2 koreans talking to each other in korean just because you heard the N word ?
This is whats happening right now
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"There will be snow." Good thing referees weren't Croatian and it was about to snow. If I'm not mistaken, you should get the reference.

Personally, given what I've seen so far, I think this is completely blown out of proportion.
 
Posh Red said:
But this isn’t true. Ba hasn’t misunderstood anything judging by the conversation on record. Ba is very clearly heard describing how inappropriate it is to refer to someone as ‘the black guy’, when they would less than likely do the same in a different situation. I’m sure by now both teams are well aware of what was said, and they weren’t able to be convinced to come out and play again. Whatever your thoughts are on this, the players themselves are definitely not happy about what happened.
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Why isn't it true, because Ba afterwards makes an assumption based on his own belief? How can Ba know that the same referee wouldn't have used similar words for white guy if the roles were reversed?
 
UncleBob said:
Why isn't it true, because Ba afterwards makes an assumption based on his own belief? How can Ba know that the same referee wouldn't have used similar words for white guy if the roles were reversed?
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Well you said ‘Ba reacts to a word that he think sounds racist’. Sounded like you were implying Ba didn’t understand what was said. It sounds to me like he understands perfectly what was said. If that wasn’t what you meant then fair enough
 
calodo2003 said:
Wouldn’t need to use the racial descriptor. Jamie’s either the male or the female. If it was a subordinate, I would counsel them to not to use racial descriptors. If someone overheard my subordinate telling me ‘the white guy’ & got offended, then things would be escalated, who knows what the result will be. This is typical business protocol, this isn’t voodoo. I wouldn’t have any recourse over my peer other than to let them know their racial descriptors are inappropriate.

The officials are the bosses on the pitch. They are held to higher standards & rightfully so.
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You're desperate to let everyone know you have people that work under you aren't you champ? :lol:
 
InLevyITrust said:
That makes no since, is there something wrong with being called a black guy?
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And we're back to the start again, you've had at least 5 people saying the same thing to you and you're choosing to ignore it, so I'll just say it one more time and see if you can try to understand: you are not the arbiter of what other people are allowed to be unhappy about being called.

If you reply and say something along the lines of "what's wrong with being black" I'm not going to engage as you're just saying the same thing over and over.
 
GifLord said:
He talked in his native language. You can't judge someone for something said in a different language just because it sounds racist in yours.
For example in Korean You sounds like N..a


Would you judge 2 koreans talking to each other in korean just because you heard the N word ?
This is whats happening right now
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You’re completely missing the point that he was in his place of business. There are protocols in business. I don’t have first hand knowledge, but I would strongly surmise that this official has been through training of some sort through all the associations for whom he works. This is the upper, upper strata of his profession; just because it’s a sport doesn’t mean that basic multicultural business protocols are not adhered to & demanded of the employees by the higher ups. It’s obviously a very specific environment in which this happened, but this environment is his job & there are certain levels of decorum that are expected, especially at this level.
 
InLevyITrust said:
So he's is unhappy about a black guy being called black? That's what you are saying?
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I don’t know how hard it is to understand why what happened isn’t appropriate and could cause offence. You seem to be really annoyed that someone didn’t like being referred to, first and foremost, by their skin colour. Given history and context I’m shocked this still needs explaining but there we go.
 
I think one of the biggest things people should take from this is that it's a very subjective matter that needs discussion at the highest level. At what point is the line crossed between being culturally/ educationally ignorant and being racist? How do you separate the two? And at what point is punishment due?

I can understand being offended by being singled out through your race or conplextion, but not the entirety of the world is versed in these issues and are most likely ignorant to the fact they could be taken in a derogatory fashion. In which case education during training on this matter is needed, worldwide, if you are to take part in such events.

I feel sorry for both of them. :(
 
calodo2003 said:
Doesn’t absolve him from being abjectly ignorant.
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eeh.
I'm pretty sure that the dude didn't tweet that to excuse the ref, rather in the (pretty naive) hope that random people on the internet would exercise a bit of restrain in piling up on him as TEH. WORST. REF. EVAH. for a controversial choice of words.
 
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