So, in your scenario, your boss asks you who Sam is - there are three people in a room and you are just outside - one lady, one black guy and one white guy. Scenario 1 - Sam is the lady. How do you tell your boss which individual is Sam? Scenario 2 - Sam is the white guy. How do you tell your boss which individual is Sam?
Racism incident in PSG v Istanbul match
- Thread starter Theafonis
- Start date
What people need to realise is, if someone believes they have been identified based just on the colour of their skin (in a professional setting no less) and that has upset them... Then it is not yours, mine or anyone elses right to say whether or not that is justified.
And even thinking that you can somehow say whether they're wrong to feel that way is kind of shitty.
And if you call then a "snowflake" or whatever other shit term you come up with, then that makes you a massive twat.
And even thinking that you can somehow say whether they're wrong to feel that way is kind of shitty.
And if you call then a "snowflake" or whatever other shit term you come up with, then that makes you a massive twat.
Not sure now... are you aware I agree with you? If so, all's fine.
Don't forget Zlatan's personal trainer if he's playing.
I'm no ref so it's not my job to know his name and I never did, I do remember him being abnormally tall.
And?
You've just said they should sit down and research them so they know all the staff by name and looks, and now it's a general idea of players and immediate staff
It's perfectly fine that you believe that this should be the standard, but it's not, so using it to add weight to a claim of racism is pretty fecking unfair.
Yes, general idea, research, know who they’re officiating. I obviously don’t mean sit down and research their whole fecking career. I simply mean associate a face with a name. It’s not difficult.
What's wrong with calling a black person , black? Just tell me? They have fought for it long enough and now YOU say they cant be called it? I find this a very odd discussion. Basically if there was one black person in a crowd of 6, you cant refer to their skin colour?
You seem to want to make it more of an issue than it is, like a game of Guess Who.Why would that make you sad
"On the right" (or left/in the middle)
I’m not saying it’s overtly racist or even somewhat racist in its intent, but the racism that is projected in his ignorance is unacceptable. It’s dubious to think that someone at such a level of his profession does not realize to not use such descriptors or hasn’t been trained not to use them. I think this mostly falls on his ignorance, potentially a slip of the tongue, but using such descriptors in such a professional setting will have consequences. And rightfully so.
Also somewhat agree about the potential of the fourth official using a colloquialism to his colleagues that was overheard by Ba. But this doesn’t fully absolve him in any way. Blame’s even on the center official for allowing such talk to be used.
When you are a professional, your held to higher standards. You don’t use language with such racial intonations.
Well stated.
So you've checked around 60 or more photo id badges and are supposed to remember everyone's name? I'd be more suspicious of racism if he remembered the non-caucasian guy's name over everyone else.
I didn’t say they can’t be called it. I said there was no need. He has a name that can be used. I also said it was incredibly ignorant and silly to use your own term for black that can sound racist to people that do not speak Romanian, especially after an incident like the Cavani one last week.
What's wrong with calling a black person , black? Just tell me? They have fought for it long enough and now YOU say they cant be called it? I find this a very odd discussion. Basically if there was one black person in a crowd of 6, you cant refer to their skin colour?
What are you on about?
Why would that make you sad
That some people think its sad that black people want to be called black?
You don’t think that certain situations in life demand certain decorum than others?
They'll check that the registrations are ok, that the names match, they aren't memorizing the names. I'd be surprised if foreign referees even knows half the player names in most matches.
Plot twist: He identified him as "that white referee!"
You are aware of the loads of other names they can be referred to? No?
Do you genuinely think that a group of Romanian refs read the English gutter press on a regular basis?
That's true in a way but eventually somebody has to estimate if it actually was derogatory since the victim can't simultaneously be the judge.
Can't say I see why it upsets you so much. It's just common courtesy.
Life would also be easier if people didn't tell others what they can and cannot object to. Both the coach and Ba clearly were offended by this and you're telling them they have no right to be. I find that quite an uncomfortable assertion. Again, you have no idea the lives these guys leave, you have no right to judge their reaction.
I think that if I’m a referee that is going to be officiating in the CL I should be aware of what’s happening in the footballing world and that was a huge issue so yes, they should be aware of something like that.
Decorum as in? Describing someone? Why would calling someone black need decorum, is all people not equal?
What? What are you implying here, that everybody should now take into account the English language and understand its nuances around the word "black"?
This. This. This.
Patrick Owomoyela (dark skinned former Dortmund player) was on german Sky and described what happened as a "misunderstanding" or "lost in translation" because the referee basically said "black" in romanian language.
In german the most polite way would have been to say "dunkelhäutig" (which means dark skinned) but I wouldn't judge someone as racist if he says "schwarz" (black).
Is this different in english and english speaking countries? Is "black person" something racist?
I've been to Japan and was often referenced as the "big white guy". I didn't have any problem with it whatever, but obviously I've never faced racism like people of color, so they may have a different opinion on terms like this.
Sorry, I don't mean to offend anyone, I'm just curious and open to learn.
In german the most polite way would have been to say "dunkelhäutig" (which means dark skinned) but I wouldn't judge someone as racist if he says "schwarz" (black).
Is this different in english and english speaking countries? Is "black person" something racist?
I've been to Japan and was often referenced as the "big white guy". I didn't have any problem with it whatever, but obviously I've never faced racism like people of color, so they may have a different opinion on terms like this.
Sorry, I don't mean to offend anyone, I'm just curious and open to learn.
It depends on the context and enviornment. For example I would consider rude to point someone who is right in front of me and refer to them by any of those adjectives. They are all phyiscall traits, most of them at least, and like you said some come with a negative connotation but still I think is rude as you're being impersonal when you're talking about someone who's right in front of you and can hear you. When it's a more formal or professional environment I think you should use another way to address people, like referring to them as gentleman and stuff like that in order to demonstrate some degree of respect when you don't know someone's name.
I think you're giving the Cavani incident more coverage than it got outside of English football. We should also consider these guys were officiating a game between French and Turkish teams.
I appreciate your opinion, but it has nothing to do with this discussion. There were Jews that didn’t mind wearing or seeing a swastika - does that mean other Jews should not feel offended by it?
the basic definition of racism requires to put people into ethnic/racial categories. No categories, no racism. Now, mind you, we’re talking about an organization that supposedly says „no to racism“. An official must not confirm or reiterate the racial categorization. So, I am not talking about how you go about your daily business.
Someone does I suppose (thankfully that person is nobody on here! )... But that still doesn't change the fact that the fella in question still has ever right to have been upset.
Even if it all turns out to be a giant misunderstanding, I'm sure the ref in question will still apologise... Because that would be the decent and sensible thing to do when you offend someone - even if you didn't mean too.
When English is the neutral language being used in a game like the CL and diversity is a major issue currently in the world/football currently, yeah, people should be aware, especially referees.
I understand where you're coming from, I've used skin colour, weight and height as identifiers before. Its hypocritical of me as I dont like my skin colour being used as an identifier. In every day scenarios I can see how logical it is to use skin colour but come on! Not in a professional setting! I might have done it in the past in a casual setting but I've never done it to my customers or suppliers.What's wrong with calling a black person , black? Just tell me? They have fought for it long enough and now YOU say they cant be called it? I find this a very odd discussion. Basically if there was one black person in a crowd of 6, you cant refer to their skin colour?
I see your point and in general, I agree. In his positions he should be more aware how such a formulation could be interpreted. But as you said it might come down to a slip of the tongue or a moment of naivety or something similar, it's not necessarily ill intended or even racist. And initially, I compared the situation to Cavani who also used a term that might be interpreted differently by people speaking a different language respectively coming from a different culture.
Yet you're correct that a referee should be more aware of such things than a footballer because politically correctness in the frame of maximum neutrality is actually part of his profession.
No. I answered the question about how they could know their names. And by the way, nowadays the licenses and teamsheets or on tablets which is suppsed to be in possession of the fourth referee.
Man everyone has a story, I went to England many a time and got called paddy and had to be searched at train stations and airports. Do I find Paddy offensive, no ,does my black family member being called "black" offend them no, they are proud. I don't get your point. As with everything people will take things to th extreme, is Ba justified its up to him, personally I don't see his beef.
But arn't you talking about that in only your cultural context? Rather than Romanian or any other nation?
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I think your completely missing the point. Did the coach sound happy to be referred to as ‘the black one’? What about Demba Ba? Are they social justice warriors? Or maybe they are fed up of being described by their skin colour first and foremost
The Romanian Ref should have said "The non white guy" which translates to the Romanian language as "Tipul Ne Alb"
Be thoughtful with the words that you choose.
Be thoughtful with the words that you choose.