Racism incident in PSG v Istanbul match

[UncleBob]

I sadly agree. I loved the solidarity between teams but I feel this could have been avoided if somehow* it was discussed calmly, as I'm sure, any sane person would immediately apologize if they meant no disrespect and explained the clash of language and culture.

*I say somehow, as I wouldn't know if that would be possible given I can't relate myself at all to the situation and reaction.

The refs were clearly heard trying to explain the context and language, but even having the ref in the VAR was not accepted by any of the teams.

Which i reckon is more than just a bit over the top given the context.

Either way, this is easily ending up with the referee being binned..

Erdogan, of all people, jumping on the bandwagon as well..

 

[slyadams]

Of course it's ok to feel offended.
But I hope people also try to understand whether it was really meant in bad spirit. Maybe it's a miscommunication and misunderstanding and this could be acknowledged by the public an also the offended party.

I mean if I feel offended by some remark I still dont think I have the right to dictate how his remark has to be punished without even bothering to understand the context

Of course they have a right to feel upset, but that doesnt mean the other party has to be punished. I felt upset

If I'm the only asian guy in the group and you describe me as the guy with dark hair, male and of middle height with chequered shirt... instead of saying the asian one.... I'd be quite puzzled why you think calling me asian is such an issue that you'd have to avoid it by all means.

I'm not actually saying the guy should be punished. If he comes out and says it was an unfortunate turn of phrase and can learn from it, case closed for me and I'm sure all involved would be OK with that. The problem is, just because some people aren't offended, others might be. Its possible you've never experienced discrimination and so being called Asian holds no negative associations for you. Its equally possible Ba or the coach could have experienced terrible racism, so being identified purely as 'black' by an official holds much worse connotations. This is why you have to be very careful, and those in positions of authority doubly so.

 

[mancan92]

I don't agree and doing so only softens what is termed as racism. A white guy is a white guy, a black guy is a black guy, a Chinese guy is a Chinese guy .... or woman, this is not racism.

Of course this and the NBA case are not equal.
The latter is clearly a racist slur while this doesn't seem to, by any means (but is still inappropriate, just not racist).

Yeah I'm done replying cause apologist don't even bother to read what I'm replying to and wanna find a way to excuse themselves.

 

[abundance]

I’m baked right now & could be completely off the mark here with this metaphor, but the Streisand Effect will be very much in play here.

Ah well, for sure the only thing that tweet could accomplish is that most of the random people on the internt that read it will proceed to excoriate him not only for tonight slip-up but also for his alleged emotional fragility....

 

[TrustInOle]

Why?

Not to argue against you, because I agree on your point that describing someone based on skin tone shouldn't be offensive, it's something you have to do when giving a witness statement actually. But I have also been witness to multiple cases during school years of black friends being called black cu*t, black piece of sh*t ect because they think they are being clever and avoiding the N word, as to not get in trouble. I have even seen it in adulthood, so it's understandable why, case by case, people might find even being referred to by their colour can still have stinging affects.

 

[calodo2003]

Of course it's ok to feel offended.
But I hope people also try to understand whether it was really meant in bad spirit. Maybe it's a miscommunication and misunderstanding and this could be acknowledged by the public an also the offended party.

I mean if I feel offended by some remark I still dont think I have the right to dictate how his remark has to be punished without even bothering to understand the context

Of course they have a right to feel upset, but that doesnt mean the other party has to be punished. I felt upset

If I'm the only asian guy in the group and you describe me as the guy with dark hair, male and of middle height with chequered shirt... instead of saying the asian one.... I'd be quite puzzled why you think calling me asian is such an issue that you'd have to avoid it by all means.

In a business setting, you try not to use racial descriptors. Simple as.

 

[Isotope]

Imo, If there's no offence meant whatsoever, then the words better be damn near brutal in order for there to be no acceptance. I've more or less been all over the world on a yearly basis for the past 10 or so years in relation to work, i don't think i've ever met someone that's so brutal when it comes to "understanding" as people are online, for me it's quite telling.

People need to calm down a fair bit here. The referees communicate between themselves in their own language, Ba overhears the conversation and reacts to a word that to him sounds racist and then it spirals out of control. I honestly find it a bit bizarre that it results with the match being abandoned, surely sitting them down and explaining the situation and how no offence whatsoever was meant should clear things up. Some common sense needs to be applied to this entire thing.

Western countries should just punish people when using Any skin color to call people. feck any skin color privilege. Not just for certain skin color. Not even between people with similar skin color. No calling, no songs, no movies.

So just to make it fair to all people, and vanish all these gray area.

Unless if it is required by law.

 

[calodo2003]

Ah well, for sure the only thing that tweet could accomplish is that most of the random people on the internt that read it will proceed to excoriate him not only for tonight slip-up but also for his alleged emotional fragility....

That will be an unfortunate tragedy from this, no doubt.

 

[calodo2003]

I sadly agree. I loved the solidarity between teams but I feel this could have been avoided if somehow* it was discussed calmly, as I'm sure, any sane person would immediately apologize if they meant no disrespect and explained the clash of language and culture.

*I say somehow, as I wouldn't know if that would be possible given I can't relate myself at all to the situation and reaction.

It would have been great if there was somewhat less emotional in the situation who could have calmed Ba down a bit to try to get both parties on the same page. It’ll be interesting to see what happened in the immediacy after the game was abandoned by all parties involved. Wonder if there was any attempt at reconciliation at all.

 

[UncleBob]

I would imagine most people would prefer to not be referred to by their skin colour, even if they don't feel, within a particular context, it isn't inherently racist to do so. I think descriptors are just generally rude, no matter the context, especially if the person being talked about is within earshot.

It depends, doesn't it? Obviously, no one wants to be constantly referred to as "the <insert descriptor>", but in a situation where someone is being pointed out, names aren't known, wearing similar clothes, people usually use the easiest description, either it's a haircut, clothing, whatnot. If it's one white person in a group, then for me it's fairly obvious that most people will use white guy as the description, in one way or another, same as for black etc etc. There doesn't have to be much thought behind it, just whatever comes first.

 

[TrustInOle]

Sure he should be more careful but also please dont use the word "wider world". Its mainly an issue in the anglosphere and some western european countries. So unless the UK can set the standard for what is the standard in the wider world but poland or japan cannot we just cannot agree on how this training should be like and its dangerously close to enforcing one culture or one standard on others.

Completely took my response out of context. I meant wider world as in outside your own country and culture, when you are in a profession where you interact with people from another culture and especially when you are performing your profession in another country, understanding how you can be offensive and avoiding it is common sense, no?

Nothing about enforcing cultures, have no idea how you came to that conclusion.

 

[UncleBob]

Western countries should just punish people when using Any skin color to call people. feck any skin color privilege. Not just for certain skin color. Not even between people with similar skin color. No calling, no songs, no movies.

So just to make it fair to all people, and vanish all these gray area.

Unless if it is required by law.

Just punish everyone, i'd say.

 

[TrustInOle]

It would have been great if there was somewhat less emotional in the situation who could have calmed Ba down a bit to try to get both parties on the same page. It’ll be interesting to see what happened in the immediacy after the game was abandoned by all parties involved. Wonder if there was any attempt at reconciliation at all.

I hope this too, all evidence so far suggest there was no evil intent.

 

[pablo__p]

Yeah I'm done replying cause apologist don't even bother to read what I'm replying to and wanna find a way to excuse themselves.

Excuse themselves? What do you mean? Intuguing line of thinking. Just as intriguing as you seemingly defending/downplaying the NBA racist slur because of systemic oppression.
Terrible stance.

Get a grip man. Racism regardless of races involved needs to be condoned. These two are clearly very different from each other and clearly the NBA thing is far worse.

Also, racism shouldn't be something everyone is on a permanent lookout for. Common sense and empathy, like in every other area of life is needed.

 

[Sayros]

Excuse themselves? What do you mean? Intuguing line of thinking. Just as intriguing as you seemingly defending/downplaying the NBA racist slur because of systemic oppression.
Terrible stance.

Get a grip man. Racism regardless of races involved needs to be condoned. These two are clearly very different from each other and clearly the NBA thing is far worse.

Also, racism shouldn't be something everyone is on a permanent lookout for. Common sense and empathy, like in every other area of life is needed.

It's not so much that the NBA thing isn't some sort of racism (though, I'd disagree with that, just like I disagree with calling a player black automatically means the person is racist), it's looking for examples in other sports to take away the focus from what happened today (I didn't read through the whole thread so apologies if you didn't start this comparison). It's classic whataboutism that's often prevalent when people are trying to defend or excuse moments like this. Context does matter, and this was not the setting for an official, not a player competing with another player (like in the comparison with Luka), but an actual official put in place to keep the integrity of the game among other things, this wasn't the setting for him to use someone's skin color to describe them. You can point, you can walk over to the person, there's a myriad of ways you can go about it without resorting to using their skin color.

And the NBA thing is far worse in the language, but it's par for the course in the NBA. The thing that a lot of ignorant people (usually on the white side) seem to forget is that there is a double-standard in place. They might not like it, but it's far less egregious for a black man to call a white man white boy/man than a white man calling a black man black/boy. You have to accept that historical context have created this double-standard. To try to constantly go back to some of the discrepancies as if the world has always been equal and so therefore every racial moments should be judged exactly the same way whether the target was black or white is ignorant at best, and sadly it's not a very original or sound argument. If you have a problem with this double-standard, then you should have an even bigger problem with the systematic racism some black people are put through whether it's in their living conditions, education, social injustices, etc....but often times the people making the kind of argument you did see only the double-standard that affects them on such a minor, insignificant scale (like being called a white boy or not being able to say the word 'nigga') and sweep under the carpet the overwhelming impact the double-standard has the other way and how it affects black people on far more than just a sports venue, where their very lives can be in danger.

 

[mancan92]

It's not so much that the NBA thing isn't some sort of racism (though, I'd disagree with that, just like I disagree with calling a player black automatically means the person is racist), it's looking for examples in other sports to take away the focus from what happened today (I didn't read through the whole thread so apologies if you didn't start this comparison). It's classic whataboutism that's often prevalent when people are trying to defend or excuse moments like this. Context does matter, and this was not the setting for an official, not a player competing with another player (like in the comparison with Luka), but an actual official put in place to keep the integrity of the game among other things, this wasn't the setting for him to use someone's skin color to describe them. You can point, you can walk over to the person, there's a myriad of ways you can go about it without resorting to using their skin color.

And the NBA thing is far worse in the language, but it's par for the course in the NBA. The thing that a lot of ignorant people (usually on the white side) seem to forget is that there is a double-standard in place. They might not like it, but it's far less egregious for a black man to call a white man white boy/man than a white man calling a black man black/boy. You have to accept that historical context have created this double-standard. To try to constantly go back to some of the discrepancies as if the world has always been equal and so therefore every racial moments should be judged exactly the same way whether the target was black or white is ignorant at best, and sadly it's not a very original or sound argument. If you have a problem with this double-standard, then you should have an even bigger problem with the systematic racism some black people are put through whether it's in their living conditions, education, social injustices, etc....but often times the people making the kind of argument you did see only the double-standard that affects them on such a minor, insignificant scale (like being called a white boy or not being able to say the word 'nigga') and sweep under the carpet the overwhelming impact the double-standard has the other way and how it affects black people on far more than just a sports venue, where their very lives can be in danger.

Thanks for this post I genuinely wasn't going to reply and allow the poster to carry on not learning but you have put it such a perfect way. I hope he reads this.

 

[Desert Eagle]

Excuse themselves? What do you mean? Intuguing line of thinking. Just as intriguing as you seemingly defending/downplaying the NBA racist slur because of systemic oppression.
Terrible stance.

Get a grip man. Racism regardless of races involved needs to be condoned. These two are clearly very different from each other and clearly the NBA thing is far worse.

Also, racism shouldn't be something everyone is on a permanent lookout for. Common sense and empathy, like in every other area of life is needed.

not sure you used the right word there buddy

 

[pablo__p]

not sure you used the right word there buddy

Condemned of course. Cheers

 

[MayosNoun]

The guy clearly labelled Webo by referring to him as ‘negru’ - ‘the black guy’.

Regardless of the translation, he must have completed some form of racism training at UEFA and if he has any morals or values, he would simply refrain from talking about someone and labelling them by their skin colour.

Race, like disabilities, are something you avoid labelling someone by. You wouldn’t stand speaking to a group of people and refer to someone as ‘the guy with Down’s Syndrome’ or another group and referring to one as ‘the gay guy’. So why are many on accepting that it’s fine to label Webo as the black guy? The term ‘negru’ certainly hasn’t helped on translation and the 4th official should have been more than aware of that, but regardless, he shouldn’t be using offensive or stigba-based labels to describe a human being.

 

[Ludens the Red]

I think your completely missing the point. Did the coach sound happy to be referred to as ‘the black one’? What about Demba Ba? Are they social justice warriors? Or maybe they are fed up of being described by their skin colour first and foremost

Aye. It’s very common. I called out a mate of mine for doing it. He’s an uber driver so meets a lot of people and tells me stories. I noticed that for some reason anytime he told a story and it involved a black person he always felt the need to say “black guy” or “black girl”. I don’t know why. Regardless of whether it was a positive or negative story. He would never say ‘white guy/girl’ ‘Asian guy/girl. And it’s something I picked up on quickly because it seemed irrelevant for him to mention what race the person was. I mean you’re just telling me a fecking story, I don’t need information on the persons ethnicity.

And whilst it didn’t really bother me, it backs up what you said. You see it on Twitter a lot. You saw it during the summer a lot. During lockdown, when you had the street parties in Harlesden, a large amount of the negative comments would be made with racial undertones and direct abuse sometimes.
A few days ago when the travellers went to Harrods. I looked through the comments on Twitter and there was barely a mention of the racial make up of the crowd.

 

[Ole'sattheWheel]

Yeh it always leaves me annoyed when people refer to what they think my race is. The worst part is they think I'm something I'm not. But I don't consider them doing it out of spite or racism. They just do it because well that's just how they talk. I don't expect others to feel the way I feel about it but that's just my experience

Yeah there are many debates to be had. For example in the Cavani/Suarez situation, they both apparently used "Negrito" which is a very pally term you'd use to call your poc friend by nickname and is completely socially accepted.

Now should we deem that totally racist/off-limits, or is it actually worse to just assume the whole world should follow English conventions now when it comes to this sort of thing - in a football game between a French and Turkish team refereed by some Romanian refs?

Honestly I don't know, I think in this situation if it genuinely hurts someone's feelings, and like slyadams pointed out in post #419: being black generally comes with the centuries of systematic racial discrimination, which is bound to cause more offense for the receiver of such language - this situation has nuance which isn't comparable to many of the analogies made in this thread.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

He's speaking in Romanian.

He says "ala negru", which means "the black one". There is nothing racist about that.

I never understand why can’t he say ‘’this guy’’. He even pointed the guy as well so he has zero sense to say ‘’the black one’’. He basically defines the person based on skin colour when he could just say ‘’this guy’’ with his finger.

It’s not about the word but how you use the word. This is why some people don’t even understand the difference between Cavani & Suarez case.

 

[RedDevil@84]

I never understand why can’t he say ‘’this guy’’. He even pointed the guy as well so he has zero sense to say ‘’the black one’’. He basically defines the person based on skin colour when he could just say ‘’this guy’’ with his finger.

Force of habit maybe. If it is not considered bad to point out at someone and say that white man, black man, brown man, tall man, short man, fat man, lean man etc etc., then it could become a habit and a natural thing to say. Not every country has the same culture.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Force of habit maybe. If it is not considered bad to point out at someone and say that white man, black man, brown man, tall man, short man, fat man, lean man etc etc., then it could become a habit and a natural thing to say. Not every country has the same culture.

He’s not qualified to work in UEFA then. Or UEFA never train their officials.

 

[RashyForPM]

Imo, this is dissimilar to the Cavani situation. Cavani used ‘negrito’ as a term of endearment, how it’s genuinely supposed to be used in his home country. Thus, we can see that Cavani had zero bad or racist intentions when using the word. However, this ref referred to Ba (or the assistant, not sure) as the black one. I mean, he already pointed so didn’t need to do that in the first place, but why not say his kit number? Why refer to him as a black, when he would never do the same with a white?

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

He talked in his native language. You can't judge someone for something said in a different language just because it sounds racist in yours.
For example in Korean You sounds like N..a


Would you judge 2 koreans talking to each other in korean just because you heard the N word ?
This is whats happening right now

It’s not about the word it’s about how you use it. The official used it to define a person’s skin colour aka people’s race when he could just point the guy without saying anything or you could just say ‘’this guy’’. This Korean video is so irrelevant, it‘s not referring to skin or people’s race.

Cavani used the same word as Suarez but he didn’t refer to people’s race or skin colour while Suarez referred to people’s race or skin colour.

May be the official isn’t a racist and some countries are being educated differently but he is working in UEFA which he should have been educated not to specifically define person based on their race.

 

[GameOn]

"Negru" literally means "black" in Romanian.

Ref asked: "Which one (of the assistant coaches) was it?"
4th official responded: "It was the black guy!"

One can certainly ask if he couldn't have said it without bringing up the skin color, but I don't see any racial insult or bad intentions by the 4th official here.

 

[UweBein]

Are you implying that calling Doncic a bitch ass white boy simply doesn't matter as much?

Yep , it does not matter that much. There are different connotations attached to black/white, different stereotypes and prejudices. And clearly, historically these terms are wide apart. Now, the NBA context, being a predominantly non-white players field, it might make it a little worse... but we are still talking about a different class of stereotype/ prejudice in the Doncic case.

 

[RoyH1]

"Negru" literally means "black" in Romanian.

Ref asked: "Which one (of the assistant coaches) was it?"
4th official responded: "It was the black guy!"

One can certainly ask if he couldn't have said it without bringing up the skin color, but I don't see any racial insult or bad intentions by the 4th official here.

Maybe. The Anglosphere is going to eventually force all Romance language speaking countries to abandon using words sounding like Negro when referring to people’s skin.

 

[rcoobc]

!"

One can certainly ask if he couldn't have said it without bringing up the skin color, but I don't see any racial insult or bad intentions by the 4th official here.

I don't think the question is whether he could have. He clearly could. But why didn't he.

 

[Sky1981]

The guy clearly labelled Webo by referring to him as ‘negru’ - ‘the black guy’.

Regardless of the translation, he must have completed some form of racism training at UEFA and if he has any morals or values, he would simply refrain from talking about someone and labelling them by their skin colour.

Race, like disabilities, are something you avoid labelling someone by. You wouldn’t stand speaking to a group of people and refer to someone as ‘the guy with Down’s Syndrome’ or another group and referring to one as ‘the gay guy’. So why are many on accepting that it’s fine to label Webo as the black guy? The term ‘negru’ certainly hasn’t helped on translation and the 4th official should have been more than aware of that, but regardless, he shouldn’t be using offensive or stigba-based labels to describe a human being.

 

[RoyH1]

Where is this from?

 

[Sky1981]

Where is this from?

Take a guess

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classification_of_ethnicity_in_the_United_Kingdom

 

[RoyH1]

Take a guess

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classification_of_ethnicity_in_the_United_Kingdom

, well I wonder how certain posters will react to this.

 

[africanspur]

Why do people keep bringing up the 'anglosphere' trying to force their views on other countries?

Webo-Cameroon
Ba-Senegal
Buruk - Turkish
Entire Istanbul squad- only one player you could argue comes from an anglosphere country (a Nigerian)
Entire PSG squad - none

 

[africanspur]

Can you see how doing a census, to ascertain the population, racial make up, disability status etc of a country, is slightly different to referring to someone, out of a limited pool of people, in a professional context?

For example, there is a difference between asking your ethnicity as a patient, asking 'are you Chinese' a there are certain medications far more likely to cause severe reactions in a Chinese person than a Caucasian person and referring to you to as a colleague, especially while you could hear, as 'the Chinese one'?

 

[fps]

The guy clearly labelled Webo by referring to him as ‘negru’ - ‘the black guy’.

Regardless of the translation, he must have completed some form of racism training at UEFA and if he has any morals or values, he would simply refrain from talking about someone and labelling them by their skin colour.

Race, like disabilities, are something you avoid labelling someone by. You wouldn’t stand speaking to a group of people and refer to someone as ‘the guy with Down’s Syndrome’ or another group and referring to one as ‘the gay guy’. So why are many on accepting that it’s fine to label Webo as the black guy? The term ‘negru’ certainly hasn’t helped on translation and the 4th official should have been more than aware of that, but regardless, he shouldn’t be using offensive or stigba-based labels to describe a human being.

If I needed to identify someone who has Down’s, whose name I don’t know, to a colleague, quickly, in a group of people, I would use that descriptors if they didn’t have any other clearly distinguishing features such as being very tall etc. I’d use it among two or three descriptor so I wasn’t making it the sole point of identification. I wouldn’t necessarily want that person, as a stranger to me, to hear that, so that’s something I may need to reflect on. Nonetheless it would be the quickest way to communicate who they were, unless there were multiple people with Down’s there. In this case there wasn’t really that need to hurry though, a bit of panic there.

Within that there would be ways to do things - “the Down’s guy” would then be utterly unacceptable, while “the person with Down’s syndrome” would not. These kinds of subtleties aren’t necessarily apparent to a non-native speaker.

There should of course be an inquest into this so it can’t happen again. If you know everyone’s names, of course, this goes away as an issue. Perhaps that is something which needs to be looked at, or all coaches could have clearly visible initials on their tracksuits. The latter seems more likely moving forward.

 

[ChatBat]

A twitter video was here.

Hey I can post again! (I wasn't banned, just normal forum restrictions).

Anyway, that is the video I was referring to when I mentioned the "in black" comment.

I wanna return to my comment as I have noticed a very interesting thing which is... I cannot tell if he says "in black" or just "black". The problem is that the two romanian words "in" and "negru" have a very similar tone to the way the words are pronounced. So as an exercise I closed my eyes and I forced myself to hear the sentence without the "in" and I was only able to hear black. Then I forced myself to hear the sentence with "in" in it, and guess what... I can distinctly hear the guy say "in black".

So the whole thoughtful explanation several pages ago might actually be misleading.

And just for the record since there's a small discussion about cultural differences, the romanian equivalent of the N word is calling a black person "crow". As in "that crow over there".

 

[MayosNoun]

I wouldn’t be referring to anyone with a disability by using a label for their perceived appearance. I used Down’s Syndrome as an example because, as you have just stated, you would refer to the individual with Down’s Syndrome as opposed to the Down’s guy. The said individual may have William’s, Angelman or Turner Syndrome, all disabilities which are often mistaken for Down’s Syndrome.

Labelling someone by their race, skin colour, disability or sexuality should simply not be a thing in today’s society. The Equality Act was formed in 2010 and ten years later we are still arguing over what is acceptable and what is not.

Also, to the guy who posted the ethnic questionnaire? There is also a section based on disability and general health. If someone stated they had cancer and shaved hair, would you refer to them as the one with cancer? Of course you wouldn’t! So again why is it okay to refer to a black footballer as such in a small group of people? Are you telling me this 4th official had no other way of pointing Weibo out? Give me a break.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I get your point but although it might be unprofessional or even rude, it's still not necessarily racist. If a supervisor would refer to his employee as "the small guy" or "the blonde girl" in a meeting, it's unprofessional but it's not discriminating as long as he doesn't do it specifically for one group. And the outrage came to be because it was understood as racist.

Really a difficult topic since sometimes pointing out the most striking physical feature can trigger something in the described person. A blonde woman could think of the stereotypes she had to deal with, a small or big guy of teasing/mobbing, etc.

Also, you have to consider if the referee actually knew the Istanbul coach could hear him. If he assumed he was talking solely to the other referees, this might also change the situation.

Or understood him if he heard him. It’s quite possible he thought nobody but the ref would know what he was saying. Romanian being a language not spoken much (or at all?) outside Romania.